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VR-Raiden

[+R] Sol Badguy Gameplay Discussion

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the +r stands for reload. ^^ - i see a lot of bandit revolver relaunch combos. love it ^^

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Noticed a few things from this.

Pretty sure 6P air hit has longer untechable time now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ7_uPD--Sc&t=8m38s

Tried this combo in AC and they tech way earlier, so you can't connect the 2H

Also we finally see a full combo involving Fafnir RC, pretty good damage from a f.S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQ7_uPD--Sc&t=16m46s

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From what I have read on japanese boards and seen, I think its just that f+p now acts the same way on air hit as it did on ground hit. Also I belive on the boards they said that it has 2 more frames of stun period. Combo wise im thinking something like something maybe even as ghetto as f+p, gun flame sorta loop might be somewhat possible. Im sure you can get some wonky combos with. Im guessing maybe some stuff using grand viper and that as well. I dont think power dunk will work to it thuogh still which sucks. Maybe say you do a side winder loop, then when you are getting to the end instead of a hit to BR, or something you can do s,f+p then something to work them to the corner some more.

Doesnt look like you can get any combo off regular fafnir to super that ive seen any video or talked on the boards. Although for the time being in the corner im going to assume you can. But maybe its tight. Compare the added on super to that like his regular ground throw, youll have to link a stand k, or dp sorta feel...

Im thinking he will also have a power dunk, side winder loop as well. In my head it works, and generally any time ive made any of those combo videos back in the day its worked so..... I think maybe even smoething like old school gun flame power dunk loop might be smoewhat useful as well.

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what i've been thinking is how to utilize tyrant rave additional from fafnir/ fb fafnir on sidewinder loops... since it's specifically mentioned that it gains additional damage from the number of clean hits

easiest seems to be sidewinder > bandit bringer, but timing and placing seems alot harder than normal sidewinder loop

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Took a quick gander at Sol's frame data, gonna translate as many of the changes as I can.

Normals

5P - Damage during Dragon Install has been increased from 10 to 12.

5K - No longer jump cancelable during Dragon Install.

c.S - Recovery time has been reduced from 16F to 12F.

f.S - Static Difference during Dragon Install has been increased from -1 to 0.

6P - Untechable time has been increased from 28F to 30F, now applies to both ground and air hit instead of just ground hit.

6HS - Damage has been reduced from 40x2 to 32x2. Now a Level 4 move. Static Difference reduced from -12 to -14. No longer staggers.

5D - Startup time has been increased from 22[16] to 24[18].

2HS - Untechable time on Counter Hit has been increased from 52F to 60F.

2D - 90% proration added.

j.S - 90% proration removed.

j.D - Untechable time has been increased from 23F to 27F.

Specials

Grand Viper - Active frames changed from 4x3,2x3,7(19)3 to 4x4,2x2,5(20)3.

Bandit Revolver - Landing recovery reduced from 8F to 7F.

Bandit Bringer - Static Difference increased from 0 to +1. Clean Hit property added. Now ground bounces on normal hit (untechable for 50F, 80F on Clean Hit). Counter Hit untechable time increased from 140F to 152F.

New move: Fafnir (41236HS)

Damage: 40

Level: 4

Guard: High, Low, Faultless

Cancel: Roman

Startup: 19

Active: 3

Recovery: 27

Static Difference: -13

Notes:

70% forced proration.

Stagger on ground hit (Max: 42F).

Knocks down on air hit (untechable for 24F).

Slides on Counter Hit (untechable for 56F, slides for 40F).

Can follow-up into Tyrant Rave on frames 20-25.

New move: Tatakiotoshi (DI version) (j.214K during Dragon Install)

Damage: 60

Level: 3

Guard: High, Air

Cancel: Roman

Startup: 17

Active: 12

Recovery: Until landing + 10

Static Difference: +3

Notes:

80% proration.

Ground bounces on hit (untechable for 55F).

Static Difference is based on connecting at minimum height (startup: 20).

Force Breaks

Fafnir - Throw invincibility increased from frames 1-7 to until active frames. Now knocks down on hit (untechable for 40F) and slides on Clean Hit (untechable for 80F, slides for 28F). Tyrant Rave follow-up window increased from frames 12-17 to frames 12-18.

Tyrant Rave - Command changed from 46D to 64D. Damage changed from 40x3+84 to (25+25n)x3+84, where n = number of Clean Hits in the combo. Startup time reduced from 7+1 to 3+1. Recovery time increased from 21F to 35F. Hits 2-4 can pass through projectiles (this was the case before, it was just documented erroneously).

New move: Sidewinder (j.236D)

Basic properties are the same as regular Sidewinder. Damage is listed as 60 instead of 35, but that's because you can't not get a Clean Hit, so the raw damage is always 35+25.

Notes:

70% forced proration.

Wall bounces on hit (untechable for 56F).

Guaranteed Clean Hit.

Sol is in Counter Hit state during landing recovery.

Hitstop: 27.

On hit, the opponent gains Tension Gauge and Burst Gauge based on 70% of the damage value.

Overdrives

Tyrant Rave ver. Beta - Second hit now wall sticks (untechable for 80F, sticks for 32F).

Dragon Install - Startup time reduced from 19+9 to 19+1. Startup invincibility increased from frames 1-18 to frames 1-19 (strike invincibility is still frames 19-21 though, so it might be a mistype).

There might be some mistakes here or there, but that's the gist of it.

Edited by Final Ultima

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Thanks for your work on this, Final Ultima.

Only change that makes me sad is 90% proration on 2D, but with all the other buffs, I can't really complain. Also, if Bandit Bringer clean hits and doesn't force prorate, I can see that leading to some big damage combos.

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Took a quick gander at Sol's frame data, gonna translate as many of the changes as I can.

Awesome thanks. I'll put this in the first post.

I was wondering about 2D, kinda thought damage from 2D > FB Fafnir seemed low. All the buffs are sweet though. 6P air hit thing is great.

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Any word on whether Bandit Bringer still has that horrendous 66% prorate? I can understand it being kept or even being made forced if it has a clean hit, but that's still kind of ridiculous. It's not like the move's even that good.

Which is why I'm still scratching my head over the 6H nerf...

On another note, Fafnir being throw invincible until startup makes me VERY happy indeed. I've lost count of the number of times I've gotten thrown...using it to bait a throw. :vbang:

Edited by Kaizen

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I'm still scratching my head over the 6H nerf...

I think I figured out why that was nerfed (and 2D) - it's because those moves combo into Gunflame midscreen. 2D counterhits frequently and 6H staggers (or used to). GF combos could be a huge deal now because a few reps of GF FRC -> CLBB will lead to absolutely disgusting damage anywhere on screen. I guess they just wanted to limit that.

I haven't seen any japanese players attempting it though, either GF doesn't actually combo into CLBB (pretty sure it does) or it's impractical because burst kills your clean hit modifier and you just spent all that tension on nothing. Still I'd like to see Sol doing some wicked tension-heavy death combo even just for the novelty.

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Any word on whether Bandit Bringer still has that horrendous 66% prorate? I can understand it being kept or even being made forced if it has a clean hit, but that's still kind of ridiculous. It's not like the move's even that good.
Bandit Bringer's 66% proration is still intact.

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Is it forced or regular?

Because if it's regular...hoo boy. Double GF FRC BB = insane damage.

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Ah ok you know something else that I bet probably works since dragon install is faster f+p, to dragon install maybe he will have some cool instant dizzy combos from it.. And even if the dp in that mode doesnt work the same, still combo to whatever or his new overhead loop. This sounds realyl good actaully. Sigh I wish the game would come out so I could make another combo video already...

Edited by Notwhoyouthink

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Sup guys I had a couple of questions about sol:

1. What are some good BnBs for a beginner? so far Im doing stuff like 5S(2) 5H/2D, a couple of low pokes into 2S/2D. I have attepted using bandit revolver after 2D but most of the time I fail. is there a surefire combo for this move?

2. What should I do for oki? What i usually do is run up to them and do a couple of low pokes or J.H. Is this the best Sol has lol?

3. how necessary is grand viper to Sol? is it more important than sidewinder? which move should I get the clean hit down for first and will it be possible for me to do this on pad lol?

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Hey there.

1. The obvious basics are stuff like 5K 2D bandit revolver (BR), or pretty much anything that ends in sweep and gets a knockdown. You just have to be close enough to BR to work, and it is character dependent. Air combos usually go j.S JC j.S j.H VV kick or involve getting to Clean Hit Sidewinder (CLSW) somehow, usually via j.S JC j.H CLSW, with a followup sj.SH VV kick as a simple finisher.

Also, pretty much anything that gets you to Sidewinder and still lets you get a knockdown off of BR or VV is good. But the combo will change a little depending on where you are on the screen, so it's hard to just give a list. For example, wild throw (WT), j.S CLSW, 2H JC j.S CLSW, neutral jump j.S CLSW, BR is pretty standard, but you need to switch the first j.S for a running j.D CLSW or 2H JC j.D CLSW if you're throwing out of the corner. It also changes depending on the character.

It's also really a good idea to work on stuff you can hit confirm. 5K(1) 5S© is good because you can late cancel close 5S, which lets you confirm to 2D BR if it hits, or if it's blocked go for 5H/6P/late 2D to fish for counter hits or run up WT. Similarly, it's good to start a lot of stuff with 2P, which by itself gives you frame advantage for WT, or you can gatling to 2K 5S© and hit confirm from there. Running 2P then either WT or 2K 2H is also useful because 2K 2H can be hit confirmed to Grand Viper (GV). Just make sure you're close enough. 2P 6P is also very useful because there's a small gap so 6P will counterhit if your opponent is poking, and you can late cancel 6P as well.

2. I generally like to use safe j.S or j.H oki. Properly timed, there's nothing an opponent can do about it, and it gives frame advantage to enforce mix ups. I see a lot of people running up and doing 2P on oki, which I don't think is very useful because I've fought too many people with good wake up throw timing, so I can't really recommend it.

You can also do an empty jump/early jump into a low 2K or go for an air dash j.SH/j.SD just before you land. I usually only go for this after BR knockdowns because that gives the most time and makes it closer to a true meaty. A lot of people like to try and throw Sol on wake up to prevent jump in 2K, and this can usually be dealt with by a low airdash j.PKD, which combos into clean Fafnir mid screen (this probably won't be worthwhile in +R) or 2H JC j.S/j.H/j.D CLSW in the corner.

You can also fuzzy guard a few characters (like Eddie) with running jump, deep j.S, JC, immediate j.D, CLSW. The timing can take some time to get down, though, and if you miss you are pretty vulnerable afterwards.

3. Grand Viper is very important. It's his best way to get meterless damage off of lows. I guess Sidewinder is technically more important, but GV is very good and Sol needs it. And yes, it is entirely possible to get both down on pad; I can do both consistently.

Hope that helps!

Edited by Orrax

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1. What are some good BnBs for a beginner? so far Im doing stuff like 5S(2) 5H/2D, a couple of low pokes into 2S/2D. I have attepted using bandit revolver after 2D but most of the time I fail. is there a surefire combo for this move?

Depending on the character you have to be closer after 2D hits for the BR to reach. It's not the end of the world if it misses though. Here's some easy mode combos that work on anyone and do decent damage into knockdown:

5K/2K 5S 2D BR (RC) SW > 2H jS SW > njS SW > BR

5K/2K 2H GV > dash jS jD JC jS jD VV (or SW loop stuff)

WT > jS SW > 2H jS SW > njS SW > BR

3. how necessary is grand viper to Sol? is it more important than sidewinder? which move should I get the clean hit down for first and will it be possible for me to do this on pad lol?

Like Orrax said, very. It's your go to combo option for meterless big damage when they don't have a burst. Also a great move on its own in many situations.

Getting the clean hit GV is doable on pad, easiest way for me is just quickly alternate between left and right on dpad while quickly alternating between slash and punch sliding with your thumb (could use any 2 buttons though). Once you get used to it it's not bad.

Edited by VR-Raiden

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You can also fuzzy guard a few characters (like Eddie) with running jump, deep j.S, JC, immediate j.D, CLSW. The timing can take some time to get down, though, and if you miss you are pretty vulnerable afterwards.

Do we have a list of characters that Sol can fuzzy guard? I know deep j.S (j.D works too, probably better because of the extended blockstun) to dj.D works on Anji and Eddie pretty much anywhere, but there's also j.S/j.D to dj.S VV or dj.S j.D on Pot. There's the early j.H airdash trick, and then there's pretty much any aerial (all jumping normals, BR, BB, RS) RC to airdash that works. Anything I'm missing?

I wish I could do something with SW as a fuzzy guard, but it's never worth the hassle, is it?

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I think you got them all (someone please correct me if I'm wrong). I personally almost never use j.S dj.S because there's just not much to do with it, and doing something like j.S dj.S VV is horrible if it gets blocked and really doesn't have much reward if it doesn't.

I don't know of anything that uses SW as a fuzzy guard. I guess you might be able to hit with it and RC it against the taller characters, but in those cases a deep j.S would work better, and wouldn't cost 50% meter to boot.

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Man I've been gone from here for too long. Learned all kinds of new things now that I've read everything. Loving all these buffs for Sol. Especially the possibility that GF BB loop may comeback. :D

But I'm still having a hard time understanding the term 'proration.' Can someone put it in lamest terms for me? Cuz I read that j.S had its proration removed. My air combos usually did a good decent amount of damage from a j.S j.D jump cancel into j.S j.D into aerial BR. If I managed to get this combo at the beginning, it would almost half health.

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First, I think we should establish that proration is different than scaling, because a lot of people seem to confuse the two. Anyway...

Proration is a damage reduction that is attached to a move and applies to the rest of the combo, that activates when the move is used to start a combo. This means that AC j.S, with its 90% prorate, causes all moves following to only deal 90% their general damage. This means that if we simply did j.S j.D, ignoring the guard bar and assuming we're hitting a character with a 1.00 defense modifier, j.D would only do 36 damage as opposed to its usual 40. If scaling were not present in GG, then in AC+R, the j.D following the j.S would do a full 40 damage because the prorate is gone. Prorates are usually attached to lows, quick moves, moves with extreme damage outputs, or general ease of use.

Scaling is, in Guilty Gear, how much guard bar a move takes away on hit. Since a reduction in the guard bar below neutral/0 causes all moves' damage to drop, this is why combos start to go down to damage of 1 per hit once you get past a certain point. It's why, even if you do a basic string like c.S 2S 2D BR, the Bandit Revolver does far less damage than it would by itself. Since this scaling only goes into effect when the guard bar goes below neutral, putting an opponent in block pressure and then opening them up deals more damage if they didn't faultless. The guard bar still needs to drop down to the point where scaling will activate.

Both of these can apply at the same time, and scaling will always apply once the guard bar drops past 0 (since it ranges from 128 to -128). That's why if you do j.S j.D, the j.D does around 32 damage, but j.K j.D makes the j.D do 36 damage instead. Both j.K and j.S have the same scaling (GB -7), but j.S has the prorate. Now that it's gone, j.S is pretty much the superior air-to-ground in every aspect, and j.K goes back to being generally useless. :v:

One more thing to consider is forced proration, which is kind of like a combination of both prorates and scaling. Forced prorates go into effect regardless of where a move with a forced prorate is used. It's why Sidewinder, with its 70% forced prorate, is a terrible move to start a combo with, but also why SW doesn't do 100% every time you loop it. Even though SW does increasing damage with every clean hit, the force prorate keeps it from getting out of hand. To put it in perspective, SW loop without scaling or proration would make the 4th Sidewinder in a loop deal 110 damage. Think about that for a second.

That's why I think it's so awesome that BB doesn't have a forced prorate. You're basically getting the last hit of Grand Viper into your combo without any of the previous hits scaling as hard, and for much higher damage. Every other move with a clean hit on it has a prorate too: Sidewinder and Fafnir are 70% forced, and Grand Viper has an 80% prorate, plus all the scaling from the first hits. Bringer also does 50 base damage, so if you start without that 66% prorate being forced, you're potentially shoving around 60-90 something damage in plus storing two clean hits before you're even near a forced prorate.

Example: corner c.S 6P GF FRC BB|> GF FRC BB |> 2H j.D SW loop is going to :gonk:.

So, short summary:

-Moves with prorates reduce the damage of all following hits in a combo down to that level. e.g. a 60% prorate makes all moves in the combo do 60% normal damage

-Scaling reduces the damage in all combos, along with reducing hitstun and increasing gravity, being GG's main infinite prevention system.

-Forced prorates reduce following damage, regardless of where in the combo a move was used.

-Both scaling and prorates go into effect at the same time.

-Bandit Bringer has hilarious potential.

-Riot Stomp should clean hit and then maybe it wouldn't be a total piece of shit.

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you know seeing some more of these videos I think tyrant rave change maybe better, it looks pretty possible to me that you should be able to link grand viper stuff off it for huge damage. Sorta like how in old AC you can actually power dunk, to 2 hit grand viper for extremely damaging combos... Im still suprised I havent seen any japanese do f+p to dragon install combos. Im pretty sure that should work.. Just no one pushing the game with sol yet still sadly.

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