Improving tips?

[Killerwatt]

So I've been playing GGAC for a while now and am getting used to our boy's nerfs, etc from Slash. I've been playing with the same group of friends as well and I hold my own quite well. But recently I've been looking for new competition, and when I found it I saw that my game needs HEAVY improvement. I can land combos, MC, FRC everything except the DBT FRC but for some reason whenever I fight new people it's like all I've learned in training mode goes out the window. Can any of you more seasoned Johnny players give me some advice as to how I can train better and actually retain that in competitive play? Would really appreciate it; anything from how you yourself train to suggestions on learning something I may not know about Johnny's game. Thanks.

[4r5]

Sounds like you know the moves, but your don't know the dance. If you want to improve, keep fighting the people who beat you. I guess I should to elaborate a bit more. Whatever it these new people are doing, it's something your old group wasn't doing, and is something you need exposure to, and eventually learn to beat. It doesn't even have to be (and probably isn't) something like a combo they do, or a move they use alot. The difference in skill most likely lies in something much more basic: reaction, reading, strategy, adaptability, etc. You know, the stuff that training mode can't help you with and the same stuff you need to improve. And the only way to improve this stuff is to get out there and fight.

[D4Nt3]

Well i was always wondering how high lvl player do their training. ;p

[Dark Vision]

as 4r5 wrote, they practice dancing.

[RedBeard]

Well, IMO, what it comes down to is... Train yourself to have impeccable offense/execution of your highest damage combos and tricky setups/basic mixup game, then play opponents who also do this and you will learn to defend against them. I think a big part of the problem with most people is they just get lazy and don't complete their training. If you're not FRCing like second nature, or you're not hitting your reversal safe okizeme 95% etc, you need to hit training mode more. The best way for both you and your friends to improve is to finish learning offense before you begin learning defense, which you will naturally pick up by playing other good players.

[Killerwatt]

Well, IMO, what it comes down to is...

Train yourself to have impeccable offense/execution of your highest damage combos and tricky setups/basic mixup game, then play opponents who also do this and you will learn to defend against them.

I think a big part of the problem with most people is they just get lazy and don't complete their training. If you're not FRCing like second nature, or you're not hitting your reversal safe okizeme 95% etc, you need to hit training mode more. The best way for both you and your friends to improve is to finish learning offense before you begin learning defense, which you will naturally pick up by playing other good players.

So what kind of defensive maneuvers can I work on with Johnny?

[4r5]

What do you mean by "defensive maneuvers"? That could mean alot of things. Are you talking about how Johnny keeps other chars from starting their offense? Or are you asking about what Johnny can do to reverse somebody's offense, once caught. You know what? That was almost a rhetorical question. Either way, Johnny is a basic char, no frills. He got what everyone else got. What you see in the manual is pretty much what Johnny has. No double airdash or flying to maneuver with. No Stun Edge or chains to zone with. No Volcanic Viper or Potemkin Buster to threaten with. Then once you're caught, you got no parries or guard-points, no trees or fishes. Blocking, jumping, backdashes and your overdrive are your tools, same as everyone else -- no extras. You're just an Average Joe trying to fight it out in a world of gears, magic, robots, Japanese, and Potemkin. No freebies for you. Your good looks and quick wit should be more then enough to surmount any obstacle.

[Killerwatt]

What do you mean by "defensive maneuvers"? That could mean alot of things. Are you talking about how Johnny keeps other chars from starting their offense? Or are you asking about what Johnny can do to reverse somebody's offense, once caught.

You know what? That was almost a rhetorical question. Either way, Johnny is a basic char, no frills. He got what everyone else got. What you see in the manual is pretty much what Johnny has.

No double airdash or flying to maneuver with. No Stun Edge or chains to zone with. No Volcanic Viper or Potemkin Buster to threaten with. Then once you're caught, you got no parries or guard-points, no trees or fishes. Blocking, jumping, backdashes and your overdrive are your tools, same as everyone else -- no extras. You're just an Average Joe trying to fight it out in a world of gears, magic, robots, Japanese, and Potemkin. No freebies for you. Your good looks and quick wit should be more then enough to surmount any obstacle.

lol well said. What I mean though, was your second question; reversing offense once caught. I typically do K>S>MF K or I try to throw...sometimes when I do the latter I whiff and get punished; I need to stop doing that so I need to find other means of getting our boy out of pressure safely.

[Keizion]

What do you mean by "defensive maneuvers"? That could mean alot of things. Are you talking about how Johnny keeps other chars from starting their offense? Or are you asking about what Johnny can do to reverse somebody's offense, once caught.

You know what? That was almost a rhetorical question. Either way, Johnny is a basic char, no frills. He got what everyone else got. What you see in the manual is pretty much what Johnny has.

No double airdash or flying to maneuver with. No Stun Edge or chains to zone with. No Volcanic Viper or Potemkin Buster to threaten with. Then once you're caught, you got no parries or guard-points, no trees or fishes. Blocking, jumping, backdashes and your overdrive are your tools, same as everyone else -- no extras. You're just an Average Joe trying to fight it out in a world of gears, magic, robots, Japanese, and Potemkin. No freebies for you. Your good looks and quick wit should be more then enough to surmount any obstacle.

I read that and got kicked outta class for laughing out loud, well put 4r5.

[4r5]

Blocking (including IB, FD and SB) backdash 1frame-jump reversal (usually OD or throw) nothing clever here. If you are using K to poke your way out of pressure, I hope your doing this in conjunction with something else like IB or backdash. Otherwise you need to tell who ever it is you're fighting to tighten up there offense. Which gets back to what Redbeard said. If you want good defense, you need to fight people with good offense. You can't expect to develop a decent defense if your opponent doesn't have a decent offense himself. Which gets back to what I said. Fight people better then you. Whether that means going out and finding better people or getting the people you have now to improve themselves. Also, if you wanna throw with out risking a big HS whiff, do 6+S+HS. And at worst you'll whiff a f.S. What this does is Option-Select between a slash and a forward-throw. Actually, I guess this OS thing is pretty clever, but it's not really a defense thing per se.

[gosumog]

heh, youtube MSY JO, and then post about the stuff you see =) im the best player i know and i suck. like they say defense comes with experience. all we can do is learn safe strings and good juggles. maniac comp isnt terrible they frc sometimes :| if i can give a tip it would be practice MC hardcore, but i dont play ac

[4r5]

I guess this would be the most appropriate thread to carry the conversation to.

About picking Johnny i wanted to say that i played some matches vs Raziel (OS) and Zaelock (BA) and i was just dissapointed. I just hope its only me that im playing not good enough and dont know my char good enough than Johnny not being effective. Or i suck vs super attacking playstyles :P .

Johnny is a hard character to pick up. He demands alot from all skill areas--Execution, spacing, strategy, reading, and fortitude. Back when XX first came out, I was coming from Tekken and started Guilty Gear with Johnny. I must of lost to my friends (who had never played any fighting games at all, prior) for a straight year before I built up a strong enough foundation to finally start taking matches.

But, unlike when I first started, a new guy to our scene, who had no prior fighting game experience, started with Slayer. We gave him a combo to practice and told him a couple easy to use anti-airs, within one month he was going toe-to-toe with some of our intermediate players. Through that month, Slayer's 2HS/6K and sheer damage did much of the work. (Granted, he has experienced players to practice with and Dustloop to help him. While I only had a thing on how to MC and tkEnsenga)

Difficulty is inherent in Johnny's basic design, and Johnny's current standing in AC exasperates this. First is the Mist Cancel. Mist Cancel isn't something you can opt to not use--it's required. It's this execution barrier that is the wall that stops many people from going any further with Johnny. Next is the Coin.

The Coin basicly forces you to be the better player. Johnny does the most real fighting out of all of the cast. And I'm talking real fighting, the stuff that happens between all the combos and mixups. The parts of the fight where you have to out-play. I'm not talking: you versus your execution. I'm saying: you versus your opponent.

Without using coins, your damage sucks. Your looking at about eight good hits to finish a round. (Maybe I'm exaggerating.) And between those hits--Fighting. With coins, the absolute best you can bring it down to is three hits. Three hits because your first hit has to be given to the coin. In contrast, characters like Jam and Slayer, it's not unlikely for them to finish you in two decent hits. Or one decent hit, if you count a bit of damage from pokes.

The coin is the barometer of player skill. Whether you use it or not, the coin says: if you can hit 'em once, then you can hit 'em again. Most who continue with Johnny find that they can NOT hit them again. Inspiring Johnnies tend to lack in one or two (but usually all) areas of skill. The most common (and luckily the easiest to improve and produces the fastest results) is execution.

Johnny is a pretty demanding guy. He takes a convergences of a lot of knowledge and skill to play well. But he's the only character I really find fun and rewarding to play. I'm trying to be truthful with you; hopefully after all I've said, you're not discouraged.

[D4Nt3]

Personally im even more encouraged :P Johnny is a good challenge

[Jais]

Reaction air throws are a must. Reaction 6P to IAD's are a must.

[4r5]

While we're throwing tips around. Johnny is more about the mindgames, then the mixups. Alot of new Johnny players get lost on this. Forcing a guess will do you fine in low and mid-level play, but you'll eventually hit a wall where people start reacting to the mixups. Once you hit this level, you're going to have to learn to condition your opponent, read their tells, and counter their expectations. Besides, Johnny's mixups are kinda crappy to begin with.

[Xaphiel]

While we're throwing tips around.

Johnny is more about the mindgames, then the mixups. Alot of new Johnny players get lost on this. Forcing a guess will do you fine in low and mid-level play, but you'll eventually hit a wall where people start reacting to the mixups. Once you hit this level, you're going to have to learn to condition your opponent, read their tells, and counter their expectations.

Besides, Johnny's mixups are kinda crappy to begin with.

Doing this right here is currently where I'm at. I'm having a lot of trouble getting those good hits into damage, because my opponent (who knows me well) is reacting superbly to my offense. Well, doing that and still getting some things down on pad :\ You really have to step into matches with a gameplan... you absolutely *have* to. Even something as simple as "I'm gonna really work 5k this match, throw it out and then mix it up into a low, a high, or MC->Dash->Throw." really helps the fuck out. Really. Then you can even just extend your plan a little bit with something easy like "If he adapts, then I'll just watch how he reacts to my 5k's, see what he's going to be expecting, and then produce a counter-strategy to get some damage in."

[its iaijutsu]

I agree with 4r5..I came from MvC2 with characters that have all sorts of frills to get the job done and I picked up johnny and endured plenty of beatings in XX..one thing I learned is that a good understanding of johnny's strengths and having knowledge of matchups helps immensely..I tried to learn everything johnny could do level by level and apply it to actual fights..MC, FRC's, one-hits and set-ups etc. I have been playing johnny for almost 5 years and there's still a bunch of stuff I need to learn and perfect in order to get my johnny to where I want it and as a person who's been playing johnny as my main char for so long its what drives me to get better..I honestly probably would have given him up long ago if he wasn't so damn cool..haha

[FlyMike]

What's the deal on stick? What am I missing out on by playing pad besides FD Dashing, canceling easier(fuck mapping), and this better execution that everyone speaks of. I thought about getting a stick but the fact that I can't even remotely play on one for 2D fighters is forcing me to reconsider. If the advantages don't seem to up ones game tremendously then I guess I'll just continue to do what I can on a cool looking, but crappy, pad.

[4r5]

Everyone has trouble when they first start using a stick. It takes practice, just like when you first learn to ride a bike or play an instrument. I think speed is the difference between pad and stick. Or atleast when compared to the standard Sony pads. Dunno much about other pads. I've used someone's modded Saturn pad once. It felt pretty nice, but I didn't get a chance to try GG out with it, so I can't make any comparisons. If you don't feel limited by your choice of controller, then I don't see any reason to have to switch. But I guess I should say that out of all the people I know who have switched to stick, all of them prefer to play on stick when given the choice. Some of them even refuse to play, if there are no sticks.

[FlyMike]

Oh ok. I didn't know how deep the learning curve would be. And with a tourney next month and not much time to practice and whatnot I didn't want to be "lost in translation". I kind of want to try a "webbed" pad to see how that feels but I bet it'll be awkward dusting with anything except a shoulder button.

[A3Religion]

I think out of all the reasons that Johnny is such a handful to learn to fight with is because he more than a lot of people in the cast has a chilling amount of potential. There are so many ways to put the coin, transports, MCing, Mist Finers, Jackhound, and normals into his fight style it becomes overwhelming. 4r5, has a lot of what is required to be a good Johnny, and probably the most important thing was the fact that Johnny is king mind fuck of the game. Johnny is to the GG cast as Batman is to the Superfriends. LOL So unless you care to understand how all his gadgets work as individuals in his fighting style then you can't every understand it. 1) Solving that problem you have about the whole not being able to do the things you practiced on your friends, this is what I do. I do the combo over and over again in training mode until I have done it 25 times, and then I beat Arcade mode on Maniac doing the combo at least 4 times. 2) Things that weren't mentioned: DB FRC: This is like so important it is scary, this move is the Get-Out-Of-AAs free card. Also its a great way to punish people trying to grab on wake up on Oki. MCing on different levels: It is important to dedicate the speed of the MC to muscle memory. Depending on the level of my MF, dictates my MC lockdown. DB & KJ Transports: These Motherfuckers right here have so potential, it boggles the mind. This is where I usually get to shine as a Johnny player, just not around my friends anymore (they burst eveytime I do a transport in a pressure string). LOL If you use the Transports well you will get so much out of it. When you master the different approachs you will just be on another level altogether. I can throw, hit high, hit low, hit high cross up standing, hit high cross up low, and everything in between (and there is an in between). 6K FRC: THEY NEVER SEE IT COMING!! LOL Character Specific combos: This will probably take the most time out of you. Lastly, Experiment: I can't tell you how many times I was out with my gf, working, or chilling with family and then I thought of some ill ass strategy. 3) If you don't have a burning desire almost obsession for learning how to fight better you won't get better fast. To end this, I was always good at defense no matter what game I played but the offense in the beginning what lacked for me greatly. My fighting style is based on being a moving defense. Also you really do have to outplay your opponents by a big margin. I remember saying to Dandystepper "Why is that I finish all my combos 85-90% of the time, you feel like you bat a 65% average, and I still lose to you evenly?" He said "Because Slayer is the shit.", that is simply what it is.

[Killerwatt]

He said "Because Slayer is the shit.", that is simply what it is.

Yeah that SOB does way too much damage easily, can chain supers, backdash cancels....oh no wait, sorry, for a second there I read "Because Slayer is bullshit".

I think I have improved myself with Johnny since I created this thread, but I'm finding that I need to study my matchups more. This past weekend at AnimeNext I was able to beat a Robo-Ky because I have a Robo player in my group, but in the tourney I got my ass handed to me by a skilled Millia, who I have no idea what the fuck to do with. I also need to hit my DB FRC more solidly; I have a 50% success rate with it.

Hopefully I can record some matches and get some constructive criticism soon.

[A3Religion]

Yeah that SOB does way too much damage easily, can chain supers, backdash cancels....oh no wait, sorry, for second there I read "Because Slayer is bullshit".

I think I have improved myself with Johnny since I created this thread, but I'm finding that I need to study my matchups more. This past weekend at AnimeNest I was able to beat a Robo-Ky because I have a Robo player in my group, but in the tourney I got my ass handed to my by a skilled Millia, who I have no idea what the fuck to do with. I also need to hit my DB FRC more solidly; I have a 50% success rate with it.

Hopefully I can record some matches and get some constructive criticism soon.

Also that is part of the one I missed, knowing who you are fighting and what are their weaknesses. Which I think must have been the most important things.

I hear you though because as good as I was I went to a tournament and lost to a scrub Baiken, and Axl player. Nowhere near as good as me but because I don't ever play the match up for both. Also find people that play with more than one character, that really helps. All my boys that play, use more than one character effeciently.

[Killerwatt]

Also that is part of the one I missed, knowing who you are fighting and what are their weaknesses. Which I think must have been the most important things.

I hear you though because as good as I was I went to a tournament and lost to a scrub Baiken, and Axl player. Nowhere near as good as me but because I don't ever play the match up for both. Also find people that play with more than one character, that really helps. All my boys that play, use more than one character effeciently.

Actually everyone in my group has more than one character that they use seriously, it's just that we're not that varied. My group consists of:

Mains: Robo, Slayer, HoS, Johnny (me), Anji

Alts: Axl, Jam (x2), Venom, Dizzy (me)

I honestly can't tell if I'm a good Johnny player or not; I had one guy come up to me at ANext and tell me I was the best he'd seen, even though I got my ass handed to me by Millia (I won one round though). I am also thinking about solid training methods; what I do now is set the CPU to Maniac and do VS CPU for each character in my GG group. Now I think I should expand to the whole cast, but I don't have the luxury of time to do that daily. Any ideas?

[A3Religion]

Actually everyone in my group has more than one character that they use seriously, it's just that we're not that varied. My group consists of:

Mains: Robo, Slayer, HoS, Johnny (me), Anji

Alts: Axl, Jam (x2), Venom, Dizzy (me)

I honestly can't tell if I'm a good Johnny player or not; I had one guy come up to me at ANext and tell me I was the best he'd seen, even though I got my ass handed to me by Millia (I won one round though). I am also thinking about solid training methods; what I do now is set the CPU to Maniac and do VS CPU for each character in my GG group. Now I think I should expand to the whole cast, but I don't have the luxury of time to do that daily. Any ideas?

Practice all your B&Bs on all of the cast, and whenever you go into training mode have a purpose because you will just end up fucking around. I don't have a lot of time either now, so an hour is more than enough to retune or work some new strategies.