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[+R] Kliff General Gameplay Thread

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tried out the fuzzy set up a lil more and got it working

turns out you can do j.S MAD deep and still get a double jump to come out.. like Kliff practically appears to be standing when the jS connects, then do double jump K-S-H with the SLIGHTEST of pauses between.

from what I've tested it should hit everyone besides

Kliff

Buri

Faust

Zappa

also due to the incredible shittiness of jK's horizontal range - FDing the initial jS will make the rising jK wiff in most, if not all situations.

edit: what button do you guys use for anti air. 6P is so shitty and he doesn't seem to have much alternative 5P maybe?

Edited by bbq sauce

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Sounds great, I'll try that.

I usually anti air with 623H, good reach and fast startup, sometimes 5H, or jump back j.S/j.H, if I can see them coming from an angle 623H won't work.

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So... it looks like you can do j.KSH without the fuzzy : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIjCYwASshw&t=3m28s

IAD j.K j.S j.H dash j.K j.S dj.H j.41236S dash 2S 236S. It looks like a pretty fast overhead, gotta try it in matches. It requires some spacing (starting positions work to practice it, backdash too), and it also works in the corner.

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So after grinding a bit tonight, I figured out why I was having so much trouble connecting otg 2s 236s frc iad j.h land dash j.k j.s dj.h j.41236s sometimes. Against some characters it'll be kinda stable even with a lot of hits initially, but against others it's a lot more unreliable. I'll have to do some testing, but it's not as universal as I thought.

For instance, 214s 2s 236s etc. is ok on sol, but too tight on venom. Throw 2s 236s etc. is okay on either of them, but pretty hard on dizzy. So, here's an alternative ender if the previous doesn't work.

(...) 2s 236s frc dash 5k c.s taunt. Less damage but still strong oki. (cancel taunt with 5p/fd)

Also, here are some simple mixup options, best knockdowns being 2d taunt, c.s air hit taunt, and high j.41236s (wave hits them), but also work with 214k/236s/214s/etc. knockdowns, just a bit riskier as the opponent has more time to act.

dash jump forward falling (j.k j.s) dj.k j.s j.h j.41236s 2s 236s frc 5k c.s taunt. (safest fuzzy, but will whiff on faultless defense)

dash jump forward falling deep (j.s/j.k) dj.k j.s j.h j.41236s 2s 236s frc 5k c.s taunt. (not as safe as you need to do the move later, giving them more time to jump out, but doesn't do as bad against faultless)

dash jump forward falling (j.s/j.k) throw

dash jump forward falling deep (j.s/j.k) 2k c.s 2d taunt

dash jump forward airdash j.s j.h dash j.k j.s dj.h j.41236s (airdash mixup, when j.h launches)

dash jump forward airdash j.s j.h c.s 5h 2d taunt (same, but when j.h doesn't launch, if you're low/against some characters)

dash jump forward 2k c.s 5h 2d taunt (empty jump low, taunt recovers fast enough to be used again)

also, just dash forward 2d/throw/tk j.41236s also works, especially good after a meaty 236p.

Throw in lots of 5d in there and you're set.

Having trouble figuring out how to do the combo here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HTpJ3D4eG8&t=8m40s seems like it's 5k 6p charge 236s frc 6h charge 214k 2s 236s. Having a hard time getting 6h charge 214k part, seems like I'd need to fully charge but I doubt that's enough time... Wonder what the charged 6p combo would have been, possibly the same but skipping 5k)

Final thought for today, in some matchups where it seems really hard to get in, sometimes j.D is what you need. (and apologies to those who might have tried the previously noted really hard combos on some characters)

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Having trouble figuring out how to do the combo here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HTpJ3D4eG8&t=8m40s seems like it's 5k 6p charge 236s frc 6h charge 214k 2s 236s. Having a hard time getting 6h charge 214k part, seems like I'd need to fully charge but I doubt that's enough time... Wonder what the charged 6p combo would have been, possibly the same but skipping 5k)

Final thought for today, in some matchups where it seems really hard to get in, sometimes j.D is what you need. (and apologies to those who might have tried the previously noted really hard combos on some characters)

he does that combo in another video against jam

after the fb chop to dizzy he does full charge 6p 236s dash 5k slight charge 6p 236s frc charged 6hs pole vault 2s 5hs and then jam died

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Thanks! I've been trying out that combo in training mode, and it seems super character specific. Often, 5k 6p charged won't hit, but for some characters it's something else... I'll have to test this out to see who it actually works on.

The trick to 236s FRC 6h full charge was simply to do 6h immediately after the frc (feel dumb now). 6h needs to be fully charged to combo into 214k.

edit : a bit of testing later, my execution lets me get it on these characters, with damage values in parenthesis. kliff (368), jam (363), eddie(377), venom (366), faust (351), justice (348). Might work on some others, but it would be no where near as easy as on these. I guess an alternate dizzy combo that does 317~ on Axl would be 6h slight charge 236s frc iad j.h land j.k j.s dj.h j.41236s 2s 236s frc 6h slight charge.

Edited by pochp

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Thanks! I've been trying out that combo in training mode, and it seems super character specific. Often, 5k 6p charged won't hit, but for some characters it's something else... I'll have to test this out to see who it actually works on.

The trick to 236s FRC 6h full charge was simply to do 6h immediately after the frc (feel dumb now). 6h needs to be fully charged to combo into 214k.

edit : a bit of testing later, my execution lets me get it on these characters, with damage values in parenthesis. kliff (368), jam (363), eddie(377), venom (366), faust (351), justice (348). Might work on some others, but it would be no where near as easy as on these. I guess an alternate dizzy combo that does 317~ on Axl would be 6h slight charge 236s frc iad j.h land j.k j.s dj.h j.41236s 2s 236s frc 6h slight charge.

5k into charged 6p also works on slayer but its really difficult

and i just tried it on potemkin and its pretty easy

do you think it'd be useful for there to be a table for which chars that 5k charged 6p does and doesn't work on?

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fucking around with kliff for a sec. turns out

you can combo immediate j.k-(j.p-)j.k-(j.p)-j.k-(j.p)-j.k on crouching potemkin. works midscreen even. anji cancels lmao

this character :|

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5k into charged 6p also works on slayer but its really difficult

and i just tried it on potemkin and its pretty easy

do you think it'd be useful for there to be a table for which chars that 5k charged 6p does and doesn't work on?

Yeah, the reasons why that combo doesn't work sometimes vary from character to character (ex: in potemkin's case, you can't do dash 5k after full charged 6p 236s iirc), so the best would probably be to list the best combos to do on each character after a dizzy (atm I can think of these starters : 6p 236s/5k 6p 236s/6h 236s), and then list or table of what parts don't work on who, to help people who may want to optimize a combo? A combo thread would probably be the best place for that, I think I'll make one tomorrow.

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Tested out some safejump stuff. Corner throw 2s 236s frc iad j.h land j.k j.s dj.hs j.41236s dash jump forward meaty j.s should safejump vs Volcanic Viper if done right, so a lot of other reversals too...

Looking into things to beat Potemkin's backdash, meaty jump in j.k (gets backdashed) 2d should catch it because it has a lot of active frames, but you really don't get that much off of 2d against pot because 2d 236p won't combo. Gotta see if other stuff is reliable...

5k 6p charged combo route seems even more practical than I thought, it doesn't seem that hard to go into it without needing dizzy. You can do like (vs jam it does like 200+ iirc) corner throw 2s 236s frc dash dash 5k 6p charged 236s frc 6h max charged 214k - ender. Also stuff like (corner) low j.h launch walk forward 5k 6p charged etc. Getting a jump in hit followed up with taunt allows to combo into 5k etc. Looks interesting.

Looking at some videos, I found an interesting but rather hard combo route that only works if you're farther than the middle of the stage to the corner. It's like, throw dash 2s 236s frc 214k whiff dash 5k sj.h j.41236s - ender. Probably always corner carries.

Also found a new ender from looking at more Bob matches, 2s 236s frc IAD j.d c.s taunt. Does more damage than the other taunt setups, and is probably more stable too (if you're too far, sometimes 236s frc dash 5k won't connect against some characters).

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thanks for all the work you put into the video and combo threads pochp

i got to play some matches vs my local faust players and recorded them

once they're uploaded i'll post them here so people can tell me what i'm doing wrong

i know for a fact that i'm struggling to get used to his jump since i'm so used to roboky's.. which is like the complete opposite of kliff's, and i'm having troubles confirming off my random hits into bigger damage

hopefully you guys can find other things i need to work on as well

alright i finally finished uploading my vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ceMFp0TBz8&list=PLZgocHU2sE52ZHvl5HRgiZgqcDrOgS7h-

they start off kliff, but most of them are of me using roboky, but i go back to kliff for a little

it would help out if you can tell me what i need to work on

Edited by M.Song

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Some Kliff stuff from nico

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21694711 take note of the display for Faust's blocking (edit - oh I read it backwards actually. that's what I get for looking over stuff at 5am)

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm20427844

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm20400254 crazy corner carry, need to look into this. second one builds a LOT of burst

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21414209 silly CH dust combo

Maybe I should have posted this in the video thread? I dunno they are just clips.

Edited by lofo

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ceMFp0TBz8&list=PLZgocHU2sE52ZHvl5HRgiZgqcDrOgS7h-

they start off kliff, but most of them are of me using roboky, but i go back to kliff for a little

it would help out if you can tell me what i need to work on

only watched up to like #15 or so, but here's what stood out.

Combos could be much better, especially in the corner. Stuff like throw 2s 236s frc iad j.h dash j.k j.s dj.h j.41236s into fuzzies is a really strong part of the character you're not using.

Okizeme could be stronger too in general. You're often ending with an air hit 236p, I don't feel like you really get an advantage from this. Midscreen, stuff like 2s 214k or 2s 236s frc 214k could be better. Corner, after a 236s frc, there are better options, like iad j.d c.s taunt, or just taking the 236s knockdown and going for 236p meaty. Fuzzies are kinda harder to do on faust so that might be it, but just like, 5d j.s j.h dj.h j.41236s dash meaty falling j.s dj.ksh etc. works.

Often you were using drill to hitconfirm from far, but then it was too far, f.s 2h (236236h) would be safer. Maybe even a 214k every now and then.

2d CH combos into 2s ->whatever. I usually don't go into 236p when I don't have the meter and I expect it to hit, and instead go for taunt on normal hit or dash 2s on CH.

You could try maybe more jump cancel normal (5k, c.s) into iad j.s j.h pressure or something like that. Not sure if it's matchup specific, but as long as you don't get too predictable with it it's rather good. Maybe more 2p/5p pressure as well, it's been working nicely for me, in setting up tick throws, frame traps, dusts etc.

You could probably use 214p a bit more. It beats faust's 214h. Just an example, but a place I might suggest would be after a blocked drill, as it would beat everything I saw your opponent do iirc.

Fullscreen taunt cancelled into 214k is kinda good, you might want to try that.

Just wondering but.. what is fullscreen 6p for?

Never really played the faust matchup with kliff, so I hope I'm not too wrong here.

Some Kliff stuff from nico

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21694711 take note of the display for Faust's blocking (edit - oh I read it backwards actually. that's what I get for looking over stuff at 5am)

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm20427844

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm20400254 crazy corner carry, need to look into this. second one builds a LOT of burst

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm21414209 silly CH dust combo

Maybe I should have posted this in the video thread? I dunno they are just clips.

I'd say either place is good. They're not matches or combo / tutorial videos so here works fine. First one is kinda funny, seems pretty character specific due to 5k 6p charged but could be effective. Also got me wondering if maybe the optimal 25% combo route into a knockdown for 2d frc might be 6frc6 ...? Can't find some way to go into j.41236s :\ Right now I've got 2d 236p frc iad j.s j.h land j.s j.236d j.41236s, but that's 50% (and it does good damage)

Second video, the combo seems pretty practical on roboky and potemkin, probably no one else. It's 5p c.s f.s 214s 2s 2s 2s 236s for those who can't watch. Third one I doubt... haven't been able to hit it consistently, and sometimes they just tech out of the super and land behind me, or get blown fullscreen after... not the best scenario. If someone can find the trick to it, please share, it seems like a fun combo to do. (input is prob 5p c.s f.s 214s 2s 5h 632146h 2s x8). Lol at the CH dust.

Edited by pochp

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Question about 214k. I can't seem to connect after it, is there anything I can get off of it (combo wise) if it's thrown out? And does the ability to combo after it (if you even can) change depending of situations. Sorry if this questions is kinda hard to understand. Lol

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pochp: wow thanks for the feedback

yeah, there were things i was doing that i was like.. oh man this is wrong as i was doing them, but (like just autopilot far slash into spin without confirming the hit)

also 2d -> 236p is another autopilot i need to stop doing

as for taunt -> 214k, would he be forced to block the taunt before 214k hits him?

this particular faust loves throwing items and the RNG loves to give him whatever item is perfect for that situation, so i am too afraid of doing random 214k into a dumbbell/hammer

also random 6p fullscreen was me making a bad guess about the scalpel pull in move, since his 6p can go under it then clash it pretty easily (or beat it if you timed it right)

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Question about 214k. I can't seem to connect after it, is there anything I can get off of it (combo wise) if it's thrown out? And does the ability to combo after it (if you even can) change depending of situations. Sorry if this questions is kinda hard to understand. Lol

214k needs to hit the opponent slightly high in the air to combo after. You then go into 2s -> whatever, I don't know if anything else connects. If you want to see, just do full charge 6h 214k 2s in the corner. Midscreen I'd suggest something like 214k 2s 236s frc 214k, corner just 214k 2s 236s frc iad j.h dash j.k j.s dj.h j.241236s ->ender

pochp: wow thanks for the feedback

yeah, there were things i was doing that i was like.. oh man this is wrong as i was doing them, but (like just autopilot far slash into spin without confirming the hit)

also 2d -> 236p is another autopilot i need to stop doing

as for taunt -> 214k, would he be forced to block the taunt before 214k hits him?

this particular faust loves throwing items and the RNG loves to give him whatever item is perfect for that situation, so i am too afraid of doing random 214k into a dumbbell/hammer

also random 6p fullscreen was me making a bad guess about the scalpel pull in move, since his 6p can go under it then clash it pretty easily (or beat it if you timed it right)

taunt 214k it order would depend on the spacing and timing. If you're really far, what generally happens is 214k gets blocked but you end up at a safe range, opponent tries to take advantage but then letters appear and it's your turn. If you're closer or if you delay the 214k cancel, the letters can arrive before, but it gives them more time to avoid the situation, or hit you out of it. But yeah, chances are you might get hit by that ridiculous RNG and kliff gets dizzied so easily, so it might not be worth the risk.

Dashing under the scalpel would probably be a safer call out, I think.

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Does anyone have any idea how 214P works/fails? The frame data says it adds his stun value to some value, and then if it goes over 80 it fails, but I'm 90% sure I've had it fail on my first use of the round (after getting comboed), which seems impossible from that wording since Kliff gets dizzied at 50 stun. Even having it fail on the second use should be pretty unlikely, requiring high stun in both cases. I feel like there's something I don't know about this move.

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I did my best translating the notes on his dodge, but they're kind of spotty. No one's re-translated them since, unfortunately.

I'll try and explain it again, maybe it'll make more sense without the brief wording I used in the frame data.

When Kliff uses his dodge, several things happen.

  1. First, a small amount of Stun is applied to Kliff. I don't know how much, but I do know that doing nothing but dodging will eventually cause his portrait to flash.
  2. His current Stun is calculated and added to a counter.
  3. If this counter exceeds 80, he throws out his back immediately. This counter does not seem to decrease over time, but it does reset once he throws out his back.
  4. If Kliff did not throw out his back, but he has attempted to dodge four times this round, his current Stun level is rounded down to the nearest 25%.
  5. A random number is generated: Kliff has his modified Stun% chance of throwing out his back each time he dodges.

This is the best I can come up with, based on empirical evidence and my understanding of the notes in his frame data. Speaking of which, here are the notes as listed in the mook.

igCM15e.png

1Uifb2c.png

ぎっくり腰全体80

気絶値「先の先発動時の気絶耐久値」の1

4を上回るとぎっくり腰が一定確率で発生

気絶値25%~50%未満、50%以上75%未満、75%以上の三段階でぎっくり腰の発動確率 が上昇。

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Thanks, Circuitous. I think I understand now. Maybe I'm wrong about it being able to fail on first use, I havn't had a chance to test it properly. It adding a bit of stun explains why it can often fail on second use if you're taking damage, though. I assume (5) only applies when (4) is triggered.

On the subject of Kliff's frame data, there are a few oddities.

His 2P is listed as having 5 startup, 6 active, 0 recovery, 0 SD, which doesn't add up. Based on #R data I suspect it's supposed to be 5/4/6/0, but I am not sure so I didn't change it.

His 214P says it can cancel into followups from the first frame, but I couldn't get 214P~D to work with an extremely fast input. I tried it many times with input display to confirm it was clean. I didn't test 214 then doubletap P because I didn't think of it, blah, but I'll try to test it next time I have a chance for more data. This is kind of a shame because with frame 1 cancel, that'd make the fastest 214P~D hit in 23f, and I had some combo ideas for that. Seems like it really only works off cornered S-Roar FRC though, blah. I mostly noticed this while trying to dodge through and punish I-No's Longing Desperation in reaction to the flash. It's 7+2/20/10/+1, so it should be easy, but I couldn't get it to work.

The ver 1.10 changes don't seem to be completely applied, if at all. The relevant changes, for reference, are

- c.S

* Slower activation

- 6HS

* Has initial prorate

- 5D

* Increased recovery

- 2HS

* Faster activation

- 2[HS] (Charged)

* Reduced recovery

- 2[HS] (Full charge)

* Reduced recovery

* Level increased

- 2D

* Level decreased

- Zukaisai (air version) (j.214S)

* Reduced untechable time

- Koke Hagashi (623HS)

* Slower activation

- FB Houkou Gaeshi (j.236D)

* Increased untechable time

Not really sure what to do about this, since the specific change is not listed. It seems like it'd be difficult to figure it out exactly.

This last one is pure speculation. His 214S (ground version) is listed as -12, but in practice it seems safer than that. In theory it should be pretty easy to hit it back with a 7f normal, but it's tricky. I suspect it might be because it has unusual hitstop, which gives it an unintuitive timing, but I'm not sure. Fiddling with it, there seemed to be at least a couple frames lenience in punishes, judging by different heights Kliff can be at when the punish hits him. In #R it was only -10 (23f recovery) which is about what it feels like now, so I wonder if there's a typo somewhere. It'd match my experience if that were the case.

I have some thoughts on the writing in his char profile, but maybe it's best if we discuss it instead of me just editting it, and this post is already long enough. ;)

Edited by lofo

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Yes, the mook data is prepatch. There are also mistakes in it like kliff's 2p has "+-0" listed in both recovery and sd... I've been thinking about testing out those changes to fix the frame data but haven't gotten around to it yet.

The macro glitch could be useful to test 214p followups, lol.

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OK, I finished writing up some notes about moves so we can discuss and maybe bolster the wiki notes. Most of this is intended to be in addition to the current notes or some ideas to discuss.

-

Old Man is listed under weaknesses instead of strengths, a gross oversight!

Caption under his portrait has his last name spelled wrong.

5P

Does anyone do 5P dash 5P pressure anymore or did the 1.10 mobility nerf kill it? I havn't really incorporated this move into my pressure yet. When I do use it I mostly gatling into 5D or IAD after it. Might be worth mentioning that it's his fastest poke at 5f (tied with 2P and close S)

5K

"Decent in combos since it launches opponents on ground hit." Pretty sure it always launches, not just ground hit. The only use at neutral I know for it is that it's quick and goes over slidehead. It's my move of choice for that.

close S

Not much to add here.

far S

I'd go so far as to call the hurtbox "excellent" but not much to add.

5H

Can be useful to tech trap as well, particularly because it hits behind him. There are some spacings where you can trap with this and even if they land behind you you can continue pressure because they're forced to block it. I don't remember any specific setups for this off the top of my head though. Also useful in some combos after 2S to leave them in a tech trap in the air, but I'm not yet convinced that's stable.

6P

IDK what this current description is talking about, combo to zugaisai (214S) is pretty bad. It's a solid anti-air, if a bit short ranged for a Kliff normal. I don't know of any reason not to combo into c.S, though maybe you can hitconfirm into S-Roar FRC on CH and avoid the scaling that 2S brings. It hits a bit behind him so it can't be avoided by aiming at his shoulder, which is reliable. General combo is probably 6P c.S 2S 214K or 236S (FRC etc with meter) but I guess that goes somewhere else. It has a long whiff, so getting baited is a concern. Sometimes gatling into c.S will drop if you hit them particularly high but w/e just don't do that or gatling into 5H.

6P (charge)

Slightly better on hit, waaaaaaaayyyyy more whiff recovery. Doesn't gatling but you can basically do the same combo sans c.S so whatever. Useful in monster corner combos vs some chars! Strangely this (and 6H) will turn around when released sometimes (every time? havn't tested), which can catch people offguard. It seems to be a property of them being charge moves, but I'm not sure. IDK why the description for this and 6P have the frame data info listed.

edit - I don't know what trap the current desc is talking about.

6P (full)

Useful to to start a post-stun combo and that's about it.

6H

Can catch Potemkin's backdash! Can trick people who forget it's an overhead or can't react in 28f! Can act as an idiocy test to tempt people into not blocking! Seriously though don't use this much at neutral, if at all. On hit cancel into 214S. On block cancel into P-Roar to make it safe. It can hit behind him and above him, but don't use it as anti-air because it has a large dead zone above him and isn't active there for long. (I wonder if there's some psych-out tricks to be had here with respect-cancel, like Faust's respect-cancel fake overhead. The sprite looks kind of similar to 6H at a glance)

6H (charge), 6H (full)

Not much to add, desc has it covered

5D

Amazing overhead. Its startup animation is exactly the same sprite as Kliff's crouch, so it's hard to react to, despite its slow startup. Does excellent damage and leads to an amazing knockdown and it's safe on block wow. Sneak it in after P-Roar 6FRC6, as a meaty, or after a pressure 5P. The stun notes on this are very important, hah.

edit - This move has a strangely high hitbox that can cause it to whiff, notably vs the edge of Faust's crouching hurtbox. It also has some bizarre properties as a consequence of it being airborne. You can RC it late and tag with a j.S but it's difficult to do much with it outside j.drill.You can set up a jump install with 5P, (like 5P65D) which allows jump cancelling--I couldn't figure anything out off that--and air dashing, which forgoes the fast overhead for more stable pressure. Not sure this is worth doing but 5D is so good that there might be some worthwhile tricks in here.

DAA

Sprite is wrong? Kliff's DAA looks like his 5K I thought. I think the description underrates this. It's not awesome, and yeah it's missing startup invuln unlike every other DAA, but it has some perks. It's safe on block (-2!) and can't be low profiled, both coveted properties in a DAA. It might even be broken if it had real invuln along with those. It needs to be used carefully (and sparingly. Kliff's meter is valuable) but I think it's ok.

2P

Does slightly more damage than 5P! Maybe this should be my go-to tick! Serioustalk the range sucks blah. Can this and/or 5P be low profiled? I should look into that. This move has the bizzare property of pulling back his hurtbox compared to his crouch sprite, which might have some uses but I don't know any. The hurtbox on both extends to the edge of his head. You can try mashing it and watch his sprite squish in, it's weird.

2K

Surprisingly good range given its sprite. Pretty good low poke in strings, it gets the job done. Shrinks his hurtbox downwards slightly, which can low profile some stuff like Hammerfall. It's not much of a difference, but it somehow makes the difference and can sometimes dodge jumpins to net a throw punish.

2S

Nothing to add really. Do people actually use this to dodge lows? I guess the bounce payoff is nice.

2H

Noteworthy that the hurtbox is noticeably worse than f.S. Has pretty good range. I saw Inoue trapping people with having the edge of this blocked then going into 214K which scores a sweet knockdown, but it seems gimmicky and painful if it doesn't work. I've had some success with it but I expect folks to catch on.

2H (charge) 2H (full)

Not much to add. Is it possible for them to time a burst such that the S-Roar just whiffs and they can punish you if you didn't FRC?

2D

7f sweep that hits extremely far away, this move is incredible. Quite possibly the best 2D in the game, and yeah I know about Sol's. Amazing punish, and cancel into P-Roar makes it plus on block, wow. I've been using 5H 2D as a burst-bait punish to stuff like DP whiffs, idk if there's a better option there but it works everywhere. Has some hurtbox weirdness where it slides forward when his body does, which can lead to bizarre interactions like dodging Axl's j.S by moving forward then hitting him in the legs as he's coming down. There are probably more tricks to be found with this move.

j.P

You can rapidfire it which can be useful to catch people jumping out of the corner, but it's otherwise not a great poke. Has an extremely thin (but reasonably long) hitbox so it can whiff in weird ways. This can be combined with the gatling out of j.K for some gimmicky setups, like IAD j.K-P (whiffs), land, throw into monster combo. His fastest air normal, for what that's worth (not much).

j.K

Not much to add here.

j.S

Fantastic air-to-air, great range off an IAD for punishing. Gatlings into j.H drill or j.H D-Roar. Hits behind him so you can do crossup tricks with it Gatling into j.H which also hits behind him, or cancel into j.41236S, or even jump cancel and do more tricks.

j.H

Better on CH than j.S because the untech means it will knock down. Otherwise not much to add.

j.D

Amazing hurtbox in the rare situation that you're actually lined up to hit something with this. It can smack Ky while he's hiding behind a j.214D, for example (before getting hit). Horribly unsafe on block or whiff. You can use it as a high risk rebuy at the end of air strings or FRC it in that situation for an instant teleport to the ground into a throw. Gimmicks! It has some limited combo uses, but overall not particularly useful.

Throw

Pretty awesome. Decent range for punishing, particularly if they whiff vs one of your weirdo hurtboxes. Goes into decent combo at midscreen or death combo in the corner with meter. On defense it seems worthwhile to OS with 6S+H to aim to throw them into the corner while avoiding that horrible 6H whiff. On offense you'll want 4H, again for the corner, and because 5H isn't that bad as far as throw whiffs go.

Airthrow

Not much to add. Probably his best airthrow OS is j.6P+H, but given its range and potentially high payoff, maybe it's worthwhile to just OS every air normal you do with this.

P-Roar, S-Roar

Not much to add.

Drill

Not as safe as some would have you believe! Most chars can punish this even at a decent range with a reasonably ranged poke (often 5K), but it's mysteriously hard so people tend to drop it. As a result, some try to go for a throw punish, so look to jump out for that. Has pretty good range, decent startup and an excellent hurtbox (it starts at his shoulder) so it can go through lots of stuff and is sometimes useful as a punish. At point blank can RC into falling j.P (char specific but no proration) or j.K (a bit tighter) to start a combo with the guardbar you just built, but it's very gimmicky and people tend to block this high anyways for some reason. Maybe because it looks airborne? RC into low will often hit but it's very expensive and gimmicky.

j.Drill

TK drill is a bit slower but notably safer than the ground version. Spaced well, it's very difficult to punish. Unfortunately it also has a blowback effect on hit, so the payoff is noticeably lower outside the corner and even oki is difficult. Do not use this move as an air poke, it will get you killed and the payoff isn't even good. (Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure this has CH recovery at least until Kliff hits the ground, but that's unlisted in the frame data)

Sword Vault

Not sure how useful this is as a punish, since it's slow, but it does have some tricks. Hitting with the very end gives and incredibly good knockdown, enough to do weird crossup stuff. Has a setup with 2H mentioned above, has some combo uses, and generally decent for just moving around the screen to compensate for Kliff's otherwise mediocre mobility.

Scale Ripper (aka SWISS CHEESE!!)

Our local crew gets incredibly hype about this move, you have no idea. Can be used to call out poorly timed meaties, which is more common than you might expect because Kliff's size means it takes longer to reach him. The 1.10 speed nerf is a bit sad though. Has a bunch of wonky properties, like vacuuming them back in after teching and moving TOWARDS them if they FD it while blocking it from behind you. Must be FDed in the air, so sometimes you can grind people against the wall if they tech wrong and unblockable reset them. Some people don't get this move and will just get reset over and over so it can be worthwhile to test people with it to check if they know. If you get hit by this, just tech and hold FD until you see yourself touch the ground. Trust me.

Sen no Sen (stance)

Not much to add. This move seems incredible when you start and gets less impressive as time goes. Try not to abuse it so you have it ready when it's time for stun slap combos. Still has some useful dodge applications though.

Hellish Charge ("Slap!")

Pretty unsafe on block so be careful. I don't think the combo into throw is guaranteed. A local guy often mashes out of the stagger like a fiend when I do it and then techs or jumps out of the throw, and I've seen similarly in match vids. I've also seen Bob RCing it on hit which suggests it's really not reliable. I think it'll really drop off in use when people wake up to it. Still useful on CH and air hit though.

The Plunge (j.41236S)

Should be used with care while high up IMO, because at close range they can cross under you leading to a horribly unsafe drill, and at far range they can dodge out of the way, hop over the wave and punish the relatively long recovery. It's still an awesome move, but these risks are worth noting.

Taunt

Reminder that, as a taunt, it gives your opponent meter! This move is missing from the frame data section btw. The regular letters do 8 damage, the big ン does 32. This move is different on p1 side than p2 side because the big ン always appears on the right side!

FB Hellish Charge (Slap Chop! We're going to make America dizzy again!)

Not much to add ok.

FB Roar

Not much to add.

Reflex Roar

Holy hell this move is amazing. In some matchups (*cough* Justice) it's worth stockpiling meter just for this. It has some weirdness where it hits full screen, but if it passes through some fireballs on the way there, sometimes it won't hit full screen. Not sure what that's about, maybe some slowdown from passing through fireballs or something?

Sole Survivor

This move is super random, I've done it on wakeup and had it throw them behind me on the first couple hits then have it be unsafe on hit. Still pretty good but be careful.

IK, Pulverizing Dragon's Roar

Dragons are cool and the name is awesome but this IK sucks. The activation is 100f and it has a dumb pose so it's not even useful as a post-round taunt. The dragons are poorly animated so it doesn't even look that cool and Kliff can already do a quadrillion damage if he has time to prepare so it's basically useless. It might be usable in a corner FB slap situation where you RC, activate then yell DOUBLE DRAGOOOOOOOOOOON as loud as possible but sadly I think even that's mashable.

Edited by lofo

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Hm, i wrote a quick description for most of the moves (not 6a j.a ik, maybe others), just so there would be something, waiting to get more used to the charcter. It's prob the right time. Most of what you wrote seems good, I'll discuss those when I'm not on my phone.

However, j.d frc (even RC) feels like it locks me in some kind of recovery. I don't see a use for the frc. Cant say I've tested this outside of matches a lot so I may be wrong here.

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Didn't realize JAKE had changed channels until today, I'd wondered why his stuff stopped showing up in my feed. Went through his recent videos for Kliff tech.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIzANLiQ1NM

This is the property I mentioned in my previous post about charge moves turning around. A friend tested this and said it doesn't always turn around, and that it seems to be related to using a special? Was tested with I-No. If she jumps behind him and immediately does a note or dive, he'll turn around. Further, if she crosses him up with a dive he'll turn. He said it also works vs Chipp's crossup teleports, which might be useful. Seems like there might be more to this, because getting triggered by specials specifically would be a very strange property.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61qCTU5_o1Q

Midscreen at point blank range vs crouching Johnny, P-Roar FRC FB-Slap. Looks like it needs to be point blank to work because the pushback of the P-Roar means the slap barely connects, but this wouldn't be an issue in the corner. Not sure how tight this is. Maybe it requires everything to be as early as possible. Might be a bit more lenient in the corner; if the wall prevents the pushback, you could do it from slightly farther away for more frame advantage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hoxzpxggejk

Random stuff. The dust combo (5D j.SH jc j.SH plunge) is what I've been using for the moment. I don't know if it works on every character, but I havn't had it drop vs anyone yet. I've generally seen Bob use a combo with less hits, not sure why. The combo at 0:27 looks useful. It's 2K 2D P-Roar FRC S-Roar FRC dash FB-Slap. Somewhat costly but it looks like a pretty easy confirm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2bUbexqRfc

Gold Burst (corner CH), OTG 2S S-Roar FRC dash FB slap RC IK. Seems like it's mashable but very difficult? I swear I tried that setup the first time I got a chance in training mode and it didn't stun, so idk what this is about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCq_iKRDOlw

Mostly j.D tricks, including the FDC float trick. Has a weird bit at 0:26 where he slashback cancels the beginning of an airdash and it makes the noise but doesn't move. I don't think it's useful but it's a thing that exists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5ntWvtqAjY

vs cornered Chipp, dash 2K c.S (combo counter resets) IAD j.KSH land dash 5K 6P (partial) S-Roar FRC 6H (full) [dizzies] Vault 2S S-Roar (340 damage + dizzy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoctQMaAGW8

Impractical high damage combo, lol.

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Tested some stuff yesterday. Macro bug doesn't trigger Hellish Charge or FB Hellish charge, which makes sense since you'd accidentally neg edge it pretty often, I'd expect. Using turbo makes it seem like the window is pretty early, but doing 214 then doubletapping P doesn't get a slap, so it's definitely not in the first 2-3 frames.

Also used macro bug to test punishing Kliff's 214S. As Ky, after whiffing IK to prevent FD, I used the macro to get reversal Stun Dipper (8f startup) and reversal S Vapour Thrust (9f startup). Only the Stun Dipper will punish. This matches what we'd previously done with ABA where her normal 2S could punish (with extreme difficulty) but her f.S could not. It's pretty clear that the -12 figure listed is incorrect.

Also also, I'm the only one posting. Are there no others who are as passionate about Kliff!?

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