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[+R] Kliff General Gameplay Thread

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So, I'll reply to the stuff said, and then put what I'd replace the current wiki text with, tell me if it's good. If anyone else has something to say about these descriptions, please do. There's also a strategy and combo part on the wiki I haven't really filled in yet. Combos I'll get to eventually, it's just a short list of practical stuff in general, the thread is where the specifics should be. Strategy... I'd say something like....

Many matchups are dramatically different with kliff, the strategies and moves you use for some will be completely different for others. In general, you want to play a poking game with your opponent to take advantage of Kliff's long range. You don't get that great of a reward from it, so your ultimate objective is usually to get a knockdown through that and proceed to doing your crazy mixup. Poke with f.s j.s and j.h mostly, 2h and 2d are also worth using. Fullscreen taunt to provoke a reaction if the opponent is too passive, then follow the letters to get in on your opponent if he's still not doing anything. Against other long range characters (like Axl, Faust, Venom, Justice, etc.), Kliff can't rely on his pokes as much and should try to get in. 214k can be used to call out their pokes or projectiles, but be very careful with it. 236236H is a great tool to go through projectiles.

On the offense, your pressure options are generally stagger 2p/2k, jump cancel 5k/c.s into iad j.ksh, anything into 236p frc iad/dash forward. 214s can be used to call out backdashes and raise the guard bar quickly, but have 50 meter to make it safe, and it's not the best use of meter. Meaty with 236p, j.k/j.s, or taunt if you have a setup (ex: ...2s 236s frc iad j.d c.s taunt). Simple high low throw mixup with 5d/2k is very good. Fuzzy guard by doing dash jump forward late j.k/j.s/j.ks into double jump j.ksh. Works great when doing a meaty j.s/j.k. You can get safejumps off the shockwave from j.41236s.

On defense, you don't have the best options. Anti air with 6p/623h/5h/airthrow, but they all have their uses and weaknesses. Backdash isn't great. 214p is very good, but not when you've already been hit by a full combo, as it has a chance of failing. 3f jump can be great if you have an objective, like airthrow or leaving your opponent in a move that has a lot of recovery, but Kliff's slow air movement means jumping sometimes just puts you in a situation your opponent can easily capitalize on. Reversal super 631246H can randomly make your opponent tech out of it before the end leaving you in a pretty bad spot, so it can be risky if you're using in a situation you haven't tried before. Once you're in the air, you can create a guessing game with j.61234s, but it's rather risky. Depending on how your opponent is pressuring you, sometimes the best way to escape is just to be very patient, deal with it, use FD (SB if you can obv), maybe call out something with a low profile move (dash, 2k, 2d), or a throw/airthrow. When cornered, if you can get them to block a normal, cancelling it into 214k can get you out, but it's risky.

As I'm writing this I'm pretty tired. Don't hesitate to correct me or add stuff.

OK, I finished writing up some notes about moves so we can discuss and maybe bolster the wiki notes. Most of this is intended to be in addition to the current notes or some ideas to discuss.

-

Old Man is listed under weaknesses instead of strengths, a gross oversight!

I'd say being old is both a strength and a weakness. Getting back pains mid combo isn't fun :<

5P

Does anyone do 5P dash 5P pressure anymore or did the 1.10 mobility nerf kill it? I havn't really incorporated this move into my pressure yet. When I do use it I mostly gatling into 5D or IAD after it. Might be worth mentioning that it's his fastest poke at 5f (tied with 2P and close S)

Hm, I mostly use 2p in pressure just to be sure, the mobility hasn't "killed" it for 2p, but you can't get too predictable. Kliff on offense is kinda scary, people know he hurts. Recovers pretty fast and has ok range so the use is really similar to 2p but with jump cancel.

5K

"Decent in combos since it launches opponents on ground hit." Pretty sure it always launches, not just ground hit. The only use at neutral I know for it is that it's quick and goes over slidehead. It's my move of choice for that.

Yeah, I meant it in the sense that not many of kliff's moves will actually launch on grounded opponents, as most moves that hit air to air will somewhat juggle. I'll add the line about slidehead.

far S

I'd go so far as to call the hurtbox "excellent" but not much to add.

Hm, I'll average that with "great" hurtbox. I don't think it's on par with some other things (thinking slayer 6p/2h), that I'd call excellent. I mean, I've been hit farther than I thought trying to hit ky under j.214d, but I haven't really tested it nor seen the hurtbox. Maybe I could ask circ so we can be sure.

5H

Can be useful to tech trap as well, particularly because it hits behind him. There are some spacings where you can trap with this and even if they land behind you you can continue pressure because they're forced to block it. I don't remember any specific setups for this off the top of my head though. Also useful in some combos after 2S to leave them in a tech trap in the air, but I'm not yet convinced that's stable.

Yeah, could add the line about the tech trap and hitting behind. About 2s 5h setup, what I feel about it, is that it's a cool place to test your opponent's habbits. For instance, against people who I don't think are expecting the tech, I'd do throw 2s 5h (tech) 5h, and hit them air unblockable into a good combo. Against people who love to press buttons, 2s 5h (tech) 623h. Against people who like to tech forward, jump airthrow (not too stable). Against people who think they don't need to tech, 2s 5h (blackbeat) 2s 5h. Imo it allows you to get good damage off a throw or random hitconfirm into 2s when you don't have the meter to do 236s frc 214k (my favorite, since it gives good corner carry and knockdown into mixup).

6P

IDK what this current description is talking about, combo to zugaisai (214S) is pretty bad. It's a solid anti-air, if a bit short ranged for a Kliff normal. I don't know of any reason not to combo into c.S, though maybe you can hitconfirm into S-Roar FRC on CH and avoid the scaling that 2S brings. It hits a bit behind him so it can't be avoided by aiming at his shoulder, which is reliable. General combo is probably 6P c.S 2S 214K or 236S (FRC etc with meter) but I guess that goes somewhere else. It has a long whiff, so getting baited is a concern. Sometimes gatling into c.S will drop if you hit them particularly high but w/e just don't do that or gatling into 5H.

Can you word that into a description to replace the current one, I don't use the move much, so I left the text that was there. Initially I didn't remember seeing a lot of JP players use it so I assumed it wasn't good, and anti-aired with 623h and airthrow instead. I have been starting to add it to my play recently, and can see that it's at least decent.

6P (charge)

Slightly better on hit, waaaaaaaayyyyy more whiff recovery. Doesn't gatling but you can basically do the same combo sans c.S so whatever. Useful in monster corner combos vs some chars! Strangely this (and 6H) will turn around when released sometimes (every time? havn't tested), which can catch people offguard. It seems to be a property of them being charge moves, but I'm not sure. IDK why the description for this and 6P have the frame data info listed.

edit - I don't know what trap the current desc is talking about.

Same as 6p uncharged. Well, I do use it in 5k 6p combos tho.

6P (full)

Useful to to start a post-stun combo and that's about it.

I'll add that.

6H

Can catch Potemkin's backdash! Can trick people who forget it's an overhead or can't react in 28f! Can act as an idiocy test to tempt people into not blocking! Seriously though don't use this much at neutral, if at all. On hit cancel into 214S. On block cancel into P-Roar to make it safe. It can hit behind him and above him, but don't use it as anti-air because it has a large dead zone above him and isn't active there for long. (I wonder if there's some psych-out tricks to be had here with respect-cancel, like Faust's respect-cancel fake overhead. The sprite looks kind of similar to 6H at a glance)

I'll add the part about hitting behind the cancels, though personally (even though I rarely use it) I cancel into 214k midscreen and 236s in the corner (or 236p when I use it by accident when going for a throw but it hits the opponent behind me by accident).

5D

Amazing overhead. Its startup animation is exactly the same sprite as Kliff's crouch, so it's hard to react to, despite its slow startup. Does excellent damage and leads to an amazing knockdown and it's safe on block wow. Sneak it in after P-Roar 6FRC6, as a meaty, or after a pressure 5P. The stun notes on this are very important, hah.

edit - This move has a strangely high hitbox that can cause it to whiff, notably vs the edge of Faust's crouching hurtbox. It also has some bizarre properties as a consequence of it being airborne. You can RC it late and tag with a j.S but it's difficult to do much with it outside j.drill.You can set up a jump install with 5P, (like 5P65D) which allows jump cancelling--I couldn't figure anything out off that--and air dashing, which forgoes the fast overhead for more stable pressure. Not sure this is worth doing but 5D is so good that there might be some worthwhile tricks in here.

Yo the stun on it is stupid. Meaty 5d on potemkin, it he does reversal super, you're dizzied. I'll add the part about the reward, it's definitely important.

DAA

Sprite is wrong? Kliff's DAA looks like his 5K I thought. I think the description underrates this. It's not awesome, and yeah it's missing startup invuln unlike every other DAA, but it has some perks. It's safe on block (-2!) and can't be low profiled, both coveted properties in a DAA. It might even be broken if it had real invuln along with those. It needs to be used carefully (and sparingly. Kliff's meter is valuable) but I think it's ok.

I... don't know, I'll have to test it, I can't remember what his daa usually looks like as it's always flashing white and going through some other move. Maybe I was too harsh on it... I mean every time I get hit out of it, I just smh... though I am much more careful with it now and it's working out nicely. Still happens on occasion because :/ It would definitely be kinda broken if it had those properties and good invinc. I'll add the safe and no low profile.

2P

Does slightly more damage than 5P! Maybe this should be my go-to tick! Serioustalk the range sucks blah. Can this and/or 5P be low profiled? I should look into that. This move has the bizzare property of pulling back his hurtbox compared to his crouch sprite, which might have some uses but I don't know any. The hurtbox on both extends to the edge of his head. You can try mashing it and watch his sprite squish in, it's weird.

Hm... iirc it gets low profiled... but gotta test it to make sure.

2K

Surprisingly good range given its sprite. Pretty good low poke in strings, it gets the job done. Shrinks his hurtbox downwards slightly, which can low profile some stuff like Hammerfall. It's not much of a difference, but it somehow makes the difference and can sometimes dodge jumpins to net a throw punish.

Really low profile on hammerfall??? Have to try this, hammerfall is giving me trouble.

2H

Noteworthy that the hurtbox is noticeably worse than f.S. Has pretty good range. I saw Inoue trapping people with having the edge of this blocked then going into 214K which scores a sweet knockdown, but it seems gimmicky and painful if it doesn't work. I've had some success with it but I expect folks to catch on.

Will add.

2H (charge) 2H (full)

Not much to add. Is it possible for them to time a burst such that the S-Roar just whiffs and they can punish you if you didn't FRC?

I... don't know, would have to try. From the times I saw it used in videos it seemed to work well as burst safe stuff.

2D

7f sweep that hits extremely far away, this move is incredible. Quite possibly the best 2D in the game, and yeah I know about Sol's. Amazing punish, and cancel into P-Roar makes it plus on block, wow. I've been using 5H 2D as a burst-bait punish to stuff like DP whiffs, idk if there's a better option there but it works everywhere. Has some hurtbox weirdness where it slides forward when his body does, which can lead to bizarre interactions like dodging Axl's j.S by moving forward then hitting him in the legs as he's coming down. There are probably more tricks to be found with this move.

Hm... I'll add a note about the quick startup, but I think low profile is enough to describe it's use, I guess I could add something about moving his hurtbox forward at the same time causing weird situations to occur.

j.P

You can rapidfire it which can be useful to catch people jumping out of the corner, but it's otherwise not a great poke. Has an extremely thin (but reasonably long) hitbox so it can whiff in weird ways. This can be combined with the gatling out of j.K for some gimmicky setups, like IAD j.K-P (whiffs), land, throw into monster combo. His fastest air normal, for what that's worth (not much).

Yeah I use this realllly rarely, trying to use it as rising j.p seems somewhat okay. Think you could word out a description for this?

j.S

Fantastic air-to-air, great range off an IAD for punishing. Gatlings into j.H drill or j.H D-Roar. Hits behind him so you can do crossup tricks with it Gatling into j.H which also hits behind him, or cancel into j.41236S, or even jump cancel and do more tricks.

I'll add that.

j.H

Better on CH than j.S because the untech means it will knock down. Otherwise not much to add.

Oh yeah, worth mentionning the knockdown.

j.D

Amazing hurtbox in the rare situation that you're actually lined up to hit something with this. It can smack Ky while he's hiding behind a j.214D, for example (before getting hit). Horribly unsafe on block or whiff. You can use it as a high risk rebuy at the end of air strings or FRC it in that situation for an instant teleport to the ground into a throw. Gimmicks! It has some limited combo uses, but overall not particularly useful.

Oh yeah I've had some weird things happen with this move. I'm assuming the -2 from the mook was changed in the patch, I'd be curious to try out how bad it is... but what matters is it's bad on block. I find it very good as a tool to make your opponent second guess their anti airs, or pokes, but it's not something to rely on.

Throw

Pretty awesome. Decent range for punishing, particularly if they whiff vs one of your weirdo hurtboxes. Goes into decent combo at midscreen or death combo in the corner with meter. On defense it seems worthwhile to OS with 6S+H to aim to throw them into the corner while avoiding that horrible 6H whiff. On offense you'll want 4H, again for the corner, and because 5H isn't that bad as far as throw whiffs go.

Death combo worth mentioning. Curious about the OS, I get that doing 4H+S will give you throw/SB, but won't 6H+S give you 6H? I OS with 6H+D, as gold burst is safe-ish.

Airthrow

Not much to add. Probably his best airthrow OS is j.6P+H, but given its range and potentially high payoff, maybe it's worthwhile to just OS every air normal you do with this.

Hm, same comment about OS.

Drill

Not as safe as some would have you believe! Most chars can punish this even at a decent range with a reasonably ranged poke (often 5K), but it's mysteriously hard so people tend to drop it. As a result, some try to go for a throw punish, so look to jump out for that. Has pretty good range, decent startup and an excellent hurtbox (it starts at his shoulder) so it can go through lots of stuff and is sometimes useful as a punish. At point blank can RC into falling j.P (char specific but no proration) or j.K (a bit tighter) to start a combo with the guardbar you just built, but it's very gimmicky and people tend to block this high anyways for some reason. Maybe because it looks airborne? RC into low will often hit but it's very expensive and gimmicky.

With the stuff you tested, do you think it would be correct to say that it's generally punishable, but getting a correct punish requires knowledge the other player might not have, so it usually ends up being safe when spaced well?

j.Drill

TK drill is a bit slower but notably safer than the ground version. Spaced well, it's very difficult to punish. Unfortunately it also has a blowback effect on hit, so the payoff is noticeably lower outside the corner and even oki is difficult. Do not use this move as an air poke, it will get you killed and the payoff isn't even good. (Speaking of which, I'm pretty sure this has CH recovery at least until Kliff hits the ground, but that's unlisted in the frame data)

Any results concerning the safeness of this move?

Sword Vault

Not sure how useful this is as a punish, since it's slow, but it does have some tricks. Hitting with the very end gives and incredibly good knockdown, enough to do weird crossup stuff. Has a setup with 2H mentioned above, has some combo uses, and generally decent for just moving around the screen to compensate for Kliff's otherwise mediocre mobility.

More of a call out than a punish imo. Oh man, he's gonna throw a fireball, or summon a something. I'll just do this and RC it if I guess wrong. Useful to make them afraid, but easy to get carried away ;_;

Scale Ripper (aka SWISS CHEESE!!)

Our local crew gets incredibly hype about this move, you have no idea. Can be used to call out poorly timed meaties, which is more common than you might expect because Kliff's size means it takes longer to reach him. The 1.10 speed nerf is a bit sad though. Has a bunch of wonky properties, like vacuuming them back in after teching and moving TOWARDS them if they FD it while blocking it from behind you. Must be FDed in the air, so sometimes you can grind people against the wall if they tech wrong and unblockable reset them. Some people don't get this move and will just get reset over and over so it can be worthwhile to test people with it to check if they know. If you get hit by this, just tech and hold FD until you see yourself touch the ground. Trust me.

Yeah resetting over and over works here too, I'll add a note on the gimmicky stuff, new character so people might not know lol.

Sen no Sen (stance)

Not much to add. This move seems incredible when you start and gets less impressive as time goes. Try not to abuse it so you have it ready when it's time for stun slap combos. Still has some useful dodge applications though.

I think I'll add a note about being careful using this in combos if you did wakeup grab or something after someone's combo(s), as it can fail anyways.

Hellish Charge ("Slap!")

Pretty unsafe on block so be careful. I don't think the combo into throw is guaranteed. A local guy often mashes out of the stagger like a fiend when I do it and then techs or jumps out of the throw, and I've seen similarly in match vids. I've also seen Bob RCing it on hit which suggests it's really not reliable. I think it'll really drop off in use when people wake up to it. Still useful on CH and air hit though.

Hm, it almost always counterhits anyways, but I'll correct that.

The Plunge (j.41236S)

Should be used with care while high up IMO, because at close range they can cross under you leading to a horribly unsafe drill, and at far range they can dodge out of the way, hop over the wave and punish the relatively long recovery. It's still an awesome move, but these risks are worth noting.

Yeah misinput happens to everyone... I'll add the note.

Taunt

Reminder that, as a taunt, it gives your opponent meter! This move is missing from the frame data section btw. The regular letters do 8 damage, the big ン does 32. This move is different on p1 side than p2 side because the big ン always appears on the right side!

Yah I'm curious about the data too, but :/ not in the mook. Never realized that the differences were with the p1 and p2 side lol, I'll add that.

Reflex Roar

Holy hell this move is amazing. In some matchups (*cough* Justice) it's worth stockpiling meter just for this. It has some weirdness where it hits full screen, but if it passes through some fireballs on the way there, sometimes it won't hit full screen. Not sure what that's about, maybe some slowdown from passing through fireballs or something?

Will add.

Sole Survivor

This move is super random, I've done it on wakeup and had it throw them behind me on the first couple hits then have it be unsafe on hit. Still pretty good but be careful.

The more I use it, the more it feels like a slot machine. You just do it, watch the guy bounce around, if he takes a lot of hits but lands far you're good. If he takes a few hits and techs from far, risky. If he takes a few hits and lands behind you, you're dead. But...if he takes a lot of hits and lands right in front of you... 2s loops? (depends on weight)

IK, Pulverizing Dragon's Roar

Dragons are cool and the name is awesome but this IK sucks. The activation is 100f and it has a dumb pose so it's not even useful as a post-round taunt. The dragons are poorly animated so it doesn't even look that cool and Kliff can already do a quadrillion damage if he has time to prepare so it's basically useless. It might be usable in a corner FB slap situation where you RC, activate then yell DOUBLE DRAGOOOOOOOOOOON as loud as possible but sadly I think even that's mashable.

Do you want to write a description for it lol? Never used it. (doesn't have to be too serious, besides saying it's not serious)

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Blah, been sitting on this post a while, keep putting off finishing it. I'll just put it now to motivate pochp to update the wiki, hah.

I'll only comment where I have something to say. In other places assume I agree with you and have nothing to add. :)

strats

Meaty 5D is mention-worthy as a thing to do sometimes.

On defense, I tend to play him like Venom. His defensive options are incredible at the edge of his pokes, but if they do manage to get in, you'll have to use patience and FD to get out. He has some passive defense in being very short and occasionally in being very floaty (though that's also a drawback sometimes), but in general he has to tough it out sometimes.

I'd say being old is both a strength and a weakness. Getting back pains mid combo isn't fun :<

I would be fine with "old man" being listed under both strengths and weaknesses. Maybe "high damage" should be "high max damage"? He converts reasonably well but his median damage is nothing exceptional, particularly since he often gives some up to bolster his setups.

Can you word that into a description to replace the current one, I don't use the move much, so I left the text that was there. Initially I didn't remember seeing a lot of JP players use it so I assumed it wasn't good, and anti-aired with 623h and airthrow instead. I have been starting to add it to my play recently, and can see that it's at least decent.

(havn't written it yet, sorry, but I'll do it)

Yeah I use this realllly rarely, trying to use it as rising j.p seems somewhat okay. Think you could word out a description for this?
How about "Not generally useful, though it's decent to keep jumpers in the corner if mashed while rising." Not sure the specific throw gimmick is worth mentioning, idk.

Oh yeah I've had some weird things happen with this move. I'm assuming the -2 from the mook was changed in the patch, I'd be curious to try out how bad it is... but what matters is it's bad on block. I find it very good as a tool to make your opponent second guess their anti airs, or pokes, but it's not something to rely on.

The -2 is if you hit the ground the frame after it hits, which, due to the hitbox and Kliff's floatiness, is basically impossible. It's misleading enough that I think it should probably just not have a listed SD, as not all air moves do and it'll really confuse people.

Death combo worth mentioning. Curious about the OS, I get that doing 4H+S will give you throw/SB, but won't 6H+S give you 6H? I OS with 6H+D, as gold burst is safe-ish.

Button priority for normals is R>P>K>S>H>D. Experimenting with macro glitch suggests specials/supers work differently.

With the stuff you tested, do you think it would be correct to say that it's generally punishable, but getting a correct punish requires knowledge the other player might not have, so it usually ends up being safe when spaced well?

Yeah, that sounds reasonable.

Any results concerning the safeness of this move?

Essay tested it (and did the preliminary testing for the ground one) and said it seemed to be -7, as listed.

More of a call out than a punish imo. Oh man, he's gonna throw a fireball, or summon a something. I'll just do this and RC it if I guess wrong. Useful to make them afraid, but easy to get carried away ;_;

Yeah, ok. Hahah, I totally know what you mean.

Yah I'm curious about the data too, but :/ not in the mook. Never realized that the differences were with the p1 and p2 side lol, I'll add that.

#R data says 8 damage, TG -, Cancel -, 61f startup, Active -, Recovery 120f total, SD -, Guard All, Level 3

Description

巨大「ン」は攻撃力32。

62Fから移動、ガード以外の行動でキャンセル可。

一旦文字が出てしまえば途中で攻撃を受けても攻撃判定は出現。

文字の出現は、7F、19F、31F、43F、61Fまでに攻撃を

喰らわなければ、攻撃判定は62Fで発生し、攻撃を喰らった場合は

87F、99F、111F、123Fに発生する。

Don't know if it's outdated but it seems to match my experience.

The more I use it, the more it feels like a slot machine. You just do it, watch the guy bounce around, if he takes a lot of hits but lands far you're good. If he takes a few hits and techs from far, risky. If he takes a few hits and lands behind you, you're dead. But...if he takes a lot of hits and lands right in front of you... 2s loops? (depends on weight)

Hah, that's a good way of describing it. I think it's the most random non-Faust move in the game. 2S loops seem like they build a LOT of burst for the opponent, but if they already have high or full burst, might as well go for it?

Do you want to write a description for it lol? Never used it. (doesn't have to be too serious, besides saying it's not serious)
what you don't like that one? seems fine to add to wiki as is

For something slightly more professional, how about "The 100f to activate Instant Kill mode makes this useless against any opponent who knows how to wiggle out of stun. You're better off going for a charged 6H or some other big combo starter unless you really like cardboard cut-out dragons."

RE: Reflex Roar

I found out this never goes to absolute full screen, it's not a fireball interaction. Still not sure how fast the secondary hit is or how to test that, hmm.

@pochp: I'll glance at the matches tonight, but I'm pretty tired. Maybe I'll have something intelligent to say after some sleep. :sweatdrop:

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I've been maining Kliff for +R along with Order Sol. It's fun playing a character that no one has any experience fighting yet.

One time I landed Kliff's 214PD force break counter that insta-dizzies, and it somehow backfired and made him dizzy instead. I think I was hit out of it at the same time, but I'm not sure. This could be another one of his troublesome old man quirks; is it a known behavior that the FB has a chance of self-dizzying, or did I just happen to get dizzied at the same time?

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I think doing 214p increases Kliff's own stun, however you can't dizzy yourself, so you must have gotten hit out of it. The fact that it was from 214p just makes it more likely. It's like getting CH out of 5D, you just die.

On a side note, gold burst into 2s instant dizzy is so cheap I can't really complain. Requires certain heights and/or counter hit, I think.

ffforgot about the wik, again. Will I do it tomorrow? Monday? who knows.

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On a side note, gold burst into 2s instant dizzy is so cheap I can't really complain. Requires certain heights and/or counter hit, I think.

Needs a CH to knock down I think. Gold burst was nerfed from AC. I havn't been able to get from 0 to stun with it either but I havn't tested it much.

I tried stun slap RC IK with max slip and it worked, so I have no idea how JAKE's video has him mashing out of it. Maybe something to do with doing it off a gold burst? Need more testing. I guess IK isn't useless then. If you get a stun set-up with full meter and they don't burst before then, you can shut them out completely with swag dragons.

here's some matches from tonight : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2E54VHxX98k&t=21m10s feedback is appreciated.

I finally watched through this last night and jotted some stuff down.

  • You use 214P~P way more than I do, wow. I use it pretty sparingly, partly because I'm scared of the stun and partly because my local crew has mostly figured out how to mash out of the stagger pretty fast. It looks like it's god tier vs pad players, though!
  • I saw you doing (combo) OTG 2S S-Roar taunt oki a bunch and wasn't terribly impressed by it. It doesn't seem to give much frame advantage compared to say (combo) OTG 2S S-Roar then meaty P-Roar. I usually go for that or dash in and then one of P-Roar, 5D, 2K, crouch wait then 2K (fake-out 5D)
  • @commentator, If you want to get out of dumb shit so you get to play, Robo is a good choice imo. He's heavy so stuff randomly doesn't work on him, he can delay his wakeup (wow!) and he has a 3f startup DP that autoconfirms into damage and has a safety FRC on block/whiff! What a cool guy!
  • Particularly at the beginning, you often get some combo into 5H trap, then don't get anything off it. Not sure how to advise here. Maybe we should brainstorm tech for that situation, options etc? Keep in mind you can do the trap when you anti-air with 5H too! I saw you get that a couple times and not go for it.
  • I think I anti-air with 5H more than you do, I saw some spots where I'd've gone for it but you didn't. I also get owned by I-No dives though, so ymmv, lol.
  • I won't comment much on your combos or execution because I feel like you probably know where to improve those (lmk if you want me to say more about it, of course), but one place where you drop a bunch of damage is off random j.H hits where you immediately go into j.drill. For example, after sword vault hit that leaves in perfect crossup position you go jump over (crossup), then airdash back, j.S-j.H-j.drill. From that setup you can go airdash, j.SH land dashjump j.S jc j.SH (j.D-Roar, j.plunge). I find that stuff like that is usually possible off j.H hits low to the ground.
  • Ok I said I wouldn't comment on your combos but at some point you got a corner throw with 50% meter and did throw 2S S-roar FRC IAD j.H something, and I went AUUGH WHERE"S THE STUN!? lol
  • Vs Johnny I'd be careful about poking with sweep. I've found that often it just trades with coin and that's a crappy trade. I've been trying to do dashing cr.K under coins and have had decent success with it.
  • Overall I notice you don't do corner traps like far S, P-Roar, far S, P-Roar. That seems like an important part of Kliff's corner trap game. Inoue does that pretty well.

Edited by lofo

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5H trap... yeah we should probably talk, here are the options I can think of right now, after hitting opponent with like otg 2s 5h :

5H : beats certain characters (not Potemkin nor Chipp, can't think of others atm) tech into mashing, beats tech into no FD, ok on block. On CH, knockdown so good damage.

623H : beats most characters tech into mashing or no FD, but riskier if it whiffs and less reward. Good when you tried 5H earlier and got mashed out.

walk throw : beats tech into too much patience, and still strong vs no tech.

jump/super jump airthrow : catches some techs at some timings. Depends on characters, should probably practice it to figure it out better. Seems ok, but I wonder, since the better JP players don't go for it. Maybe because at the height you catch them, there isn't much reward.

vs no tech : 2s 5h again

It's really not that strong of a situation for Kliff, but knowing your options, what your opponent's options are, and how to beat them should make it in your favor. Compared to the other midscreen enders it's good to keep in mind. The others I use being :

2s 236s (taunt)

2s 236s frc 214k

just take the KD

I guess it really depends on what your combo into it was, like usually off an air combo ending in j.41236S I'll take the knockdown and go for a jump in into fuzzy/low. Off a small number of hits/counter hit (like 5h anti air CH, 2d CH...) I'll go 2s 236s for damage. Off a combo into a drill or from a throw, 2s 5h or 2s 236s the damage difference is meh, so it depends on how I feel.

-----

About 2s 236s taunt in the corner.. I dunno I just felt like trying it out. If they respect too much, it'll be better than 236p meaty (I think), but if you can predict how they escape there might be something I could take advantage of. In the end, just doing meaty 236p seems better. (also, it was usually when I'd planned on going 236s frc iad j.D c.S taunt but messed up)

About 214p, I use it a lot when I'm high on health and nowhere near stun. I feel like just dodging an opponent's move, even if I can't follow up can throw them off, making the situation more ambiguous than what they were ready for. "Wait he dodged, maybe he'll recover before me" is kind of what I want them to think, just to create a doubt for a split second. There's a lot of situations where I feel like my opponent has the advantage, I find it would be too risky to throw out a move, and jumping would just leave me in a less favorable situation. Of course, blocking is what I most often go in these situations, but a dodge every now and then works well.

About stun, that's actually (usually) a choice, if I don't go for it, but maybe I'm not thinking about it correctly, so it's prob worth discussing. I usually only go for the stun when I know the followup combo afterwards will kill, and they don't have a burst. Otherwise, I prefer going for the knockdown into 50/50 fuzzy. The damage is like : (from memory, can't test atm)

throw combo 25 meter : 150~

throw dizzy 50 meter : 80~ + 180~ (using 6h 214s 2s 236s combo)

throw dizzy 75 meter : 80~ + 250~ (using 6[p] 236s frc IAD j.h etc. combo, or 6[h] 236s frc IAD j.h etc. combo)

throw dizzy vs some characters : 80~ + 350~ (using 6[p] 236s 5k 6[p] 236s frc 6[h] 214 2s 236s combo)

combo from fuzzy : 150~ meterless (j.ksh j.ks dj.h j.61234s iirc)

combo from low : 125~ (2k c.s f.s 214s 2s 236s frc iad j.d c.s taunt)

So the way I see it, going into dizzy costs a lot of ressources, and will do let's say 260~ and can't fuzzy easily afterwards. If they burst you get maybe an average 100~ and lose 50 tension. If you go combo instead, you get 150~ and then 50% chance of getting 125~ and then resetting into another fuzzy (considering you spend less meter you can get a better ender). If they burst you lose 25 tension, for similar damage. Now, that 50% chance is I know, not exclusively high/low, but considering you can also go for throw, and keep the advantage if it gets blocked, adding that up to the chances you get reversaled, backdashed or something, I'd say it evens up around 50%.

In retrospect though, I think I just considered the meter aspect too much like Blazblue's, where it's more precious, and I should just take the damage when I can. My execution is rather sloppy too so I should probably just take the easier routes rather than risk it on more FRCs and dash momentum jumps...

5H anti air. Used to go for it a lot, but thought about it and felt like it's not that great. I still use it sometimes, but combining it's use with 623H, 6p, jump back j.H, and jump airthrow has been better so far. Also really matchup specific imo, like against Johnny I feel like it's terrible, because at the ranges where it would be strong against other characters, you'll just get blown up by divine blade. Against order sol, it will just lose his j.h I feel. Against pot, I really prefer 623h over 5h at all times because there isn't much he can do to avoid 623h and the risk of getting hit by his j.s/j.d is not worth (almost) any reward.

Big thanks for the advice though, anything I didn't mention is noted! I'll have to try that dizzy rc IK though, sounds fun.

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About the stun, no way, man! I always go for stun, barring some burst bait shenanigans. At 50% meter I can do throw into stun for 80ish, then 6H(full) 214K 2S S-roar for ~270 more on Sol, meterless. While it's possible that I could spend that meter to do a combo and two resets for more, I'm not banking on that, particularly since they might build burst during that. I'll take the upfront damage and trust that I can finish them off with P-roar oki into corner pressure if they somehow survive. For the low combo in your list, I think you can get better damage if you replace f.S with 5H.

About meter, I feel in general in GG I'd rather spend meter for a bit less damage now than save it, but Kliff's insane meter options make me reconsider that. Maybe it's better to save up for stun combos? My experience has not found that to be the case though. Generally I spend my meter for relatively efficient options now, and if I end up gathering a lot of meter (perhaps for lacking of an opening) then it just piles up and I can dump it all later. I'm pretty aggressive about gold bursting in matchups where I'm not scared of getting one-touched, Kliff's meter is soooo good.

About 5H antiair, yeah fair enough. I've found it pretty bad vs Potemkin, pretty bad vs Johnny, and mediocre vs HOS. I mostly meant vs I-no. I agree that it's pretty matchup specific, though I'd say that about all of Kliff's anti-air! Actually I have kind of a hard time anti-airing Johnny in general when I can't hit him with 623H. His moves hit really deep and have good hurtboxes so 6P, 5H and low profiling don't work well, blah. I've been trying to go for jump IB->airthrow recently in the hope of getting those juicy airthrow combos but so far it's not working out.

For 5H traps, I often go for airthrows because it's the only thing that seems to beat them teching behind me, and everyone I play against has learned to do that consistently. Bob seems to like close S, but it seems like that only works vs neutral tech with no FD, which only works vs neutral tech with no FD or no tech, blah. I feel I want to write more, but I need time to collect my thoughts, so I'll do it in another post.

For midscreen OTG stuff, I do a combination of

  • I'll generally fuzzy if the damage won't immediately kill. Fuzzies are too good. I'll go into taunt off a sweep knockdown, but otherwise I'll OTG.
  • 2S S-roar, then IAD after them
  • 2S 214K This is better the later the 214K hits, so spacing/char dependent. I've been meaning to explore this more but havn't got to it. A good example of what I'm looking for is forward throw vs May, then without moving do 2S 214K (it will barely connect), then after landing IAD over her and you'll juuuust get a crossup j.S as she wakes up. If you vary it slightly in timing it doesn't cross up. Also the back throw works slightly differently due to the way she hits the ground, oddly. I figure there are probably more setups like this but they're hard to find.
  • 2S 5H traps, might as well go for them when I don't have anything better. Often blowing them to fullscreen is horrible, though it's matchup dependent. Often the worst case is they tech over me and I can chase them to the corner, which is pretty good!
  • 2S 5H Reflex Roar (FRC) 214K 2S S-roar/623H I do this sometimes near the end of matches to close things up, either for just enough damage or a little corner pressure to finish things up. It's pretty inefficient but it gets things done.
  • 2S S-roar FRC (dash) 214K 5K->???->j.plunge. I actually don't know much about this. I've seen it in that Bob video but I can't do it well enough to explore the possibilities. It seems char specific and stage-location specific but the payoff looks great, sick corner fuzzies. I don't really get how 5K into j.plunge setups work in general, actually, though they seem really powerful.

I used to go for more midscreen taunts, but I've really been cutting back lately. Usually when I have an opening to go for it, I could be pressing forward to take ground and get my sweet spot set up. Corner combos are awesome and having room to back up is nice. I feel like even when I can get the taunt off safely, I'm often let them move first. I still use it sometimes, but pretty sparingly.

For oki, I havn't really used that S-roar FRC IAD j.D c.S taunt setup, but given the meter cost it seems a bit iffy to me. I was lying in bed the other night thinking that what I really want off a S-roar FRC is combo into j.plunge for a fuzzy setup, but it's not always possible. Then I realized what I really want is that really great knockdown, and man I don't need that ender for that. S-roar FRC gives tons and tons of time to do whatever you want! So now I'm wondering if it'd be worthwhile to skip all the middle stuff and look at ending combos with S-roar FRC wait, dashjump into fuzzy or something. It's a bit theory-crafty and it might be hard to time, but the payoff seems amazing. Maybe I'm wrong and the taunt oki is even better, but it didn't look that way. Let me know!

-----

A bit of combo theorycrafting~

I was thinking about what I really want from combos (above) and I realized it really comes down to 1. fuzzy setups (mostly after j.plunge) 2. 6H(full) hits 3. stun setups (into 6H(full) hits).

For (1), 5K (air thing) j.plunge combos seem like a good direction, but I don't get how they work! Can they be standing? Do they need to be a in a ground slide? Is it char specific? Do I need a superjump? How long can the combo be? Can the 5K be an air hit? If it can be an air hit, can I do it after say a j.H launch? I was thinking about all this then saw Bob's combo vs Satou in that recent match (first combo of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ZEYgyN_F0&t=6m10s ) and went "yeah I wanna do that off everything!" Need more info on this stuff. (kind of odd that Bob ended that with S-roar instead of going for the fuzzy, hmm)

For (2), seems like you need a high hitting S-roar FRC. 5K 6P is one of the better candidates for that right now (though char specific). There might be others. I'm trying to figure out all the places I can cram this in, because even if it's char specific, it's really brutal. Next time I have a moment I want to fiddle with P-roar FRC dash 5K 6P stuff. Incidentally JAKE's video shows that you can hit Sol with 5K 6P if he's staggered/stunned but not otherwise, which is weird. We might need to look out for other stuff like that.

For (3), seems like you really need corner S-roar FRC into stun slap. I have some ideas for other stuff, but they are hard and I'm not hopeful on them. I'll put more work into investigating when other B&B stuff is more hammered out. JAKE posted that thing with P-roar FRC stun slap vs crouching Johnny, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a bunch of 1f inputs or something. I am not really sure it's practical. I guess the other angle here is figuring out ways to go into corner S-roar FRC. For example you can do it off a low with something like 2K sweep P-roar FRC S-roar FRC stun slap. It's expensive, but it's bigtime damage off a low.

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6H full after 214p~d dizzy? I never felt like I had enough time for that, just charged to level 2. The damage difference is really big...

About the setup 236s frc iad j.d c.s taunt, why I feel it's really good is it allows to setup a fuzzy off any hitconfirm in the corner. When I know I can't go for a plunge, this allows me to usually just go into drill and then get some decent damage anyways. Setting up the taunt after c.S should be good enough to set up a fuzzy, and be somewhat safe to reversals and backdashes.

Midscreen taunt into 214k usually does the corner carry for me, I stop going for it if my opponent has figured out a way to stop it, but the letters give me an advantage after the vault, so it's pretty similar to airdashing, except you get a bit of backup. Though, if I see them moving, I'll just cancel the taunt into 623h instead, which covers the air, while the taunt covers the ground, and usually at least keep the advantage. It does give them meter which kinda sucks :\

About theorycrafting, seems interesting, I'll have to try some of it out when I have time. Didn't know about the difference when staggered/stunned, worth checking out.

Also, here's over an hour of me playing Kliff if anyone's interested : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U10sQ8sbiog&t=12m45s it was before I'd read your feedback, so not asking for anyone to comment on it, but if anyone wants to plz do. (playing against venom and order sol)

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Ok apparently my testing is wrong because it just occurred to me that slip recovery might not affect stuns, and apparently it doesn't, only staggers. I have no idea why they'd code it that way but there you go. Ugh ugh ugh. Anyways, yes apparently 214P~D 6H(full) is mashable, so I need to go back to the drawing board. This also means 214P~D 6P(full) is probably mashable, since it's only 7f faster. I think the combos we want still work with partial charge though, so it's not a big deal outside of making 6P(full) useless. I did retest JAKE's stun RC into IK thing, and it's really damn hard to mash, I tried a couple times and got close but couldn't do it.

Ugh, I'm really grumpy about this. I guess the best meterless route is probably something like 6[P] S-Roar 5K something plunge? 5D does 140ish and end in a fuzzy setup, so I guess that's meterless combo to beat.

For taunt stuff, I need to do more testing, I'll get back to you about it. :3

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[*]2S 214K This is better the later the 214K hits, so spacing/char dependent. I've been meaning to explore this more but havn't got to it. A good example of what I'm looking for is forward throw vs May, then without moving do 2S 214K (it will barely connect), then after landing IAD over her and you'll juuuust get a crossup j.S as she wakes up. If you vary it slightly in timing it doesn't cross up. Also the back throw works slightly differently due to the way she hits the ground, oddly. I figure there are probably more setups like this but they're hard to find.

Tested this out post-throw vs the entire cast, since that's a fixed spacing knockdown, though wall can interfere with the vault spacing (what a strange move). These are all done midstage without wall interaction.

MI,ED,TE,BA,VE,SL: Crossup setup works on these chars right from the throw spacing, and the setup is easy.

MA: Forward throw works without moving, back throw needs a pixel-walk but is easy.

FA: Works super easily without moving, you can even back up a bit after the throw to get an even deeper 214K hit.

KY,RO: Takes a pixel-walk to get it to connect, but it's pretty easy. Seems kind of useless on RO due to delayable wakeup

SO,HOS,CH: Takes a pixel-walk and is hard, not super confident on these working out.

AB,PO,JU,IN,AX: Spacing doesn't quite work. Possible with wall adjusting maybe.

BR,AN,DI,ZA,JA,KL: Need a dash to connect 2S which makes it too impractical to set anything up.

JO: Doesn't even combo :sweatdrop:

Of those, it seems like it could be viable vs MI,ED,TE,BA,VE,SL,MA,FA,KY. I'll try to get some specific combos and stuff down, but it might take some time, not sure how much time I'll have for a few days.

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Random stuff. I tried reaction stun-slapping through Johnny's That's My Name and couldn't get it to work. Seems to suggest at least 3-4f after starting the stance until you can start the D-slap. Don't try this vs Potemkin Aegis.

Don't autopilot end a round with with sweep-taunt oki, especially vs Johnny. :vbang:

Maybe the unstickied threads should be thrown into archive?

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Was experimenting with midscreen meterless post-stun combos. An easy one if you land a random stun is c.S f.S 5H drill 2S S-roar, for 187 vs SO. More than a dust, though a dust combo can end in a fuzzy set-up, so that can be good too.

I've been experimenting to see how much I can do off a low. One idea is 2K c.S P-roar FRC S-roar FRC dash D-slap, dash c.S f.S 5H drill 2S S-roar. Looks like about 300 on SO if the stun connects, but I havn't checked that it stuns every time. Kind of annoying to work with, though. Although 2K c.S is a nice opener--the c.S gives you time to hitconfirm and a variety of options on block thanks to the jump cancel--it won't actually combo into P-roar without either a crouch or dash momentum or a wide opponent sprite or etc, which means this won't work after, say, a fuzzy setup into low. I tried 2K sweep P-roar, but the S-roar will drop, and sweep into P-roar doesn't work on PO or RO. However, 2K 2H P-roar does work and the heavier 2H gives a bit more leniency in connecting P-roar. It's still good to have dash momentum, but not strictly necessary.

edit - Hmm, apparently 2K 2H P-roar won't connect after a jump-in, but 2K 2D etc does work vs chars other than SO,HOS,RO,PO.

edit - Oh actually it does work on HOS. Weird.

I found out you can OTG after a DAA in the corner. I didn't think it was possible, because previously the 2S would whiff right through, but I was apparently doing it too early. Also weird stuff happens if you CH on the DAA, I don't really get that yet. Vs SO, regular DAA does 35, DAA 2S S-roar does 75, so it's pretty worthwhile. The timing is just DAA dash 2S as usual. You can also go into a stun off it, just like you would after a corner throw. It's expensive (100% meter) but it can be >250 damage with a reasonable post-stun combo, so it's a pretty good threat.

Kliff's IAD is low enough and his jump moves are big enough to do some crossup tricks. I thought this required a knockdown (and it can) but it doesn't necessarily. Vs some chars (obvious example is another Kliff) he can just IAD over them and cross up with j.S-j.H. In general, after a crossup, a combo like j.SH f.S drill 2S S-roar does 137 vs SO. Decent for meterless mixup.

I've been having some decent success using dash-jump j.S to control space. It's pretty fast for its reach and can tag people in the head. Is there anything j.S can't do?

6P can apparently low profile while charging up. Maybe the charge is more useful than we thought. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53vab0swH8Q

Bob has been doing some new stuff I hadn't seen before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zp0mYRz-Gek&t=20m37s Is this j.D into j.P supposed to combo? Maybe he's going for an airthrow OS, but in that case, was that really the best combo? I don't get it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13AzYHO6VIE&t=18m24s A combo I've never seen before. Looks like 5D j.K FD jc j.H xx j.H (land) j.KS jc H [dropped], presumably the last hit was a plunge, then maybe 2S S-roar. Looks like it'd be good damage but hard.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ZEYgyN_F0&t=6m22s Very fast and clean wave-dashing. I am not sure how her does that. Seems like it's probably 6 4P+K 6 really quick? Looks useful. Maybe also practical after a taunt to start moving quickly.

Edited by lofo

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Hello, newbie to Kliff here. Been using Kliff for a little while since the +R update for consoles, but I still haven't much idea just what to "understand" with him yet. Like, what to do at neutral, when backed into the corner, advancing on the opponent, etc. I can't "rush" with Kliff like with Sol, and it seems Kliff doesn't have much going for him defensively when faced with good rushdown.

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This short overview from the wiki might help :

Kliff Underson is the oldest playable human character in Guilty Gear. Drastically different from his entirely tournament-illegal builds, Kliff is now a big range, easy damage machine, with a focus on an ability to stun opponents incredibly easily at the risk of screwing things up for himself.

Kliff works pretty well at any range closer than half a screen away. He can confirm into his combos incredibly easily, knock down without any trouble, and do OTG pickups in corner carry combos without any meter. He has three good lows, an instant overhead, and one of the hardest standing dusts to see coming in the game. His 6P, Charged 2H, Dodge to Chop and Force Break Chop, and 6H can all do enough dizzy damage to get an opponent seeing birds within a matter of seconds, but 5D makes him much easier to dizzy himself, while his dodge can fail, with higher chances of messing up if Kliff's stun rating is too high. Kliff players will generally have an easy time in a lot of situations, but must play smart when on the defensive, as his most potent tools could end up backfiring and costing him the round.

Also, watch some BoB matches. If you still have questions don't hesitate to ask.

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At neutral, good pokes are f.S, j.S, 2D, maybe drill if they don't know how to punish it. You might want to dashjump into j.S, it gives it insane range. If your opponent doesn't know what's up, you can abuse 214K as well. Strings like f.S 2H 214K can be quite effective. Just be aware that if they catch on they can hit you hard for being predictable about it.

On offence, cancelling into P-roar for frame advantage is great, it lets you pressure with f.S or 2D without being contested. You can go in with it by doing FRC dash or FRC IAD to get things started, like a fake gunflame FRC. Once you get an airdash going, try for a string like j.KSH then land into 2K, 5P or c.S to hit low, tick throw or jump cancel into another IAD. You can add a whiff to the IAD with a string like j.KP(whiff) land throw.

On defense, your best tools are throw, air throw, and smart blocking. Kliff's throw has a deceptive range so that can work well. The other option is to push them out to a range where your pokes outspeed theirs, either with patience or FD. Kliff's backdash doesn't have a ton of invuln but it recovers quicker than the norm, so that can give you room to evade and punish with 2D. 214P~P and Sole Survivor are passable reversals but really the best option is to not let them get close, using backdash and your pokes.

For anti-air, 623H is great but the motion is "slow" to do. Often I've found that jumping to meet them in the air with j.P, j.S or and air throw is best.

Hope that helps.

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Somehow only just now saw BoB's combo video. Very impressive. I thought some of those combo routes weren't possible, guess I didn't try hard enough :/

The only way to punish drill is by instant blocking?

Depends mostly on the spacing, and the other character. General rule is max range you should be ok, close should get punished, IB just makes it more likely they can, but lofo can most likely correct me on that one.

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Punishing drill is complicated. Let's take a concrete example like Sol. Without an IB vs the final hit he can punish with an 8f startup move at most. His f.S is 7f, so he'll probably aim for something like f.S (CH) > Bandit Bringer > combo. So that gives him a 2f window to hit that f.S to punish, which is non-trivial. Actually it's even worse for him than that, because the final frame of Kliff's recovery is not CH state, so he'd need to do a different combo like f.S fafnir there, and that's tough to confirm, so he's going for a 1f punish to get the BB combo. If he IBs the last hit of drill, though, that shaves 4f off the blockstun, bringing his punish window up to 5f, a pretty significant difference! Note that only IBing the last hit makes a difference for this.

For spacing, it's definitely easier for them to punish if you are up close. Using Sol as an example again, if you are right in his face he can use that 3f 5K for easy mode punish. Even at a decent spacing that IB into f.S can catch you though, so you'll need to be pretty far to space it to be truly safe without a RC, at which point you're far enough that he might be able to jump over it on reaction. Most characters have a decently reaching 7f move, so this example is typical. Normal ABA's 5K is about as short as you can expect their pokes to be. That one you really can be far enough to avoid punishment. Keep in mind that the more hits they block, the more they can potentially IB to reduce pushback.

All of this only matters vs someone who's actually practiced punishing it, though. It's hard enough that they're probably not going to get it without training moding it. If you have meter you can make it even harder. While they're blocking, you can RC into sweep. Most punishes for it are standing pokes, so people tend to block it standing. I guess it also looks like an air move? Not a good thing to aim for, but a decent backup plan if you make a mistake and it'll put more strain on what they need to worry about. It's also possible to RC into falling j.moves vs some chars, but it's hard and everyone blocks the drill high anyways. If you know they have trouble punishing, it can be worthwhile to link a Sole Survivor to hit their poorly timed punish. With the guardbar from the blocked drill and follow-up OTG, you could be looking at 200-250 damage vs Sol. Just remember how risky Sole Survivor is.

Somehow only just now saw BoB's combo video. Very impressive. I thought some of those combo routes weren't possible, guess I didn't try hard enough :/

I've watched BoB's video so many times now, trying out all the stuff. Really incredible. I'm finding some stuff like throw 2S 214K 2S etc to be pretty hard. I can't tell how much the timing of the first 2S matters. Like do both of them need to be tight, or is the second one just really tight? The more I experiment, the more it seems like the former. I tried some combos like 5K c.S 2S 214K 2S S-roar on Jam, and it seems easier if the 2S is chained quickly than slowly, suggesting that it really wants a good bounce on the first 2S to work. The combo on Venom is beautiful, Mors Pricipium Est - Forgotten immediately started playing in my head.

I've been fiddling with midscreen throw combos lately, but they seem awfully character specific and I don't quite understand them yet, so it'll be some time before I have much show. A fun one vs JA from start position is forward throw dash 2S S-roar FRC 214K dash 5K 6P(partial) S-roar FRC 6H(full) 214K (283 damage), but for some reason I can't connect a 2S S-roar on the end. Don't know why she gets to tech.

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Noticed I was dropping confirms off random j.H hits when I try to do dashjump j.S jc j.SH etc, so I went into training mode and did 669S a bunch of times and found that doing the 9 too fast doesn't give you the dash momentum. I tried with some other characters to be sure and this seems to be specific to Kliff? Maybe it's because he has a step-dash. Figured I'd post it in case someone else was also having this issue.

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Somewhat to pochp, the more I play, the more I feel j.P is actually pretty amazing.

  • No extended hurtbox. This is a pretty big deal, because j.S and j.H both make Kliff's hurtbox really big, and that sucks when there are fireballs flying around or whatever. (Looking at you, gunflame!)
  • Very fast to whiff, so it's pretty low risk when combined with the above. If I don't have anything in particular to do during a rising jump, I just hit j.P because why not? Remember to OS it with throw for extra "why not" factor.
  • Deceptively big. In comparison to Kliff's other stuff it might seem small, but actually it reaches pretty far, and on a diagonal jump the narrowness of it doesn't end up mattering really. Controls space pretty well and beats other chars' air-to-airs.
  • Mashable. Seriously, don't care about anything.
  • Confirms straight into j.S for real combo. You know how Venom can hit j.Ps then do a combo into a nice knockdown? This is even better if you have meter for D-roar. A confirm like j.PS-SH D-roar plunge does respectable damage and gives you all the momentum you could want.
  • No proration. That confirm above actually does MORE damage than the same combo starting from the first j.S, because j.S has 90% proration. You can even mash the jab a little and still be fine because of this.\
  • Fast to come out, so you can sometimes tag stuff you wouldn't expect, and pick up off high j.H hits where a rejump wouldn't otherwise be possible. Need to experiment a bit with superjumps for this.

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I havn't been linking acho matches in the video thread because they're all DC vs ???, I don't know the acho regulars' names. If that's fine I could start doing it I guess. This match is too good not to link, though. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQCJsw0tMhA&t=8m48s

It's that moment where your opponent goes from thinking "oh this is just some old midget wielding a blade three sizes too big for him, let's end this quick" to "WHERE THE FUCK DID MY LIFEBAR GO"

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