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[+R] Kliff General Gameplay Thread

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decided to learn this guy yesterday and it has brought me back to the game

hes really fun to play imo even though everyone runs away from him the whole time lol

took me a while to figure out you have to cancel the end of the taunt animation with fd/a move though lol someone should add that fact to the combo guide

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the most annoying thing about him is that his combos react drastically differently on different characters. like sol/order sol, 236s will sometimes be techable after a 2s otg in certain situations due to the hitbox/timing. Ky gets launched less than other characters by the H, messing up your confirms. dumb. jump H should just launch every time imo, the fact that it sometimes doesnt REALLY messes me up

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also

why does Two Steps Forward > FB Hellish Charge dizzies your opponent instantly if used by itself

but doesn't instantly dizzy if you combo into it (unless the opponent already has a lot of stun built up or if you started with something like a charged 6P)

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the most annoying thing about him is that his combos react drastically differently on different characters.

as you get into more advanced combos this is more true. it's definitely one of the harder parts of the character. oh, his setups work differently on different characters too, particularly the ones based around safejumps

also

why does Two Steps Forward > FB Hellish Charge dizzies your opponent instantly if used by itself

but doesn't instantly dizzy if you combo into it (unless the opponent already has a lot of stun built up or if you started with something like a charged 6P)

part of it is guardbar/proration but the big factor is that stun is scaled based on which hit in the combo it is. if the slap is the 6th hit of the combo it only has half the stun value that a raw slap has, without looking at those other things. the calculation can be found here: http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Offense_(GGACR)#Bear_Stun_Formula

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damn the fuzzy setups get ridiculous but can be difficult to time to get the jk s hs to not whiff.

the stuff ive basically been using are deep jump in slash, late double jump k s hs

stand jab lockdown, instant jump k, delay.. deep jump k, double jump k s hs

anything else?

off of the 5s, taunt combo ender the deep jump slash is basically guaranteed allowing for a true guess 50/50 between double jump k and 2k.

Edited by jailhousefrog89

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Just making sure, are you using dash momentum? Like ground dash jump into meaty j.k double jump j.k j.s j.h. It's pretty reliable if you do it like that on most characters iirc, but yeah the jump in has to be really deep. I think the best choice between j.k/j.s/j.k j.s should just depend on how deep you are, this is kind of important in the case of a meaty, as different characters have different wakeup timings, but the setup prior to the jump in is the same.

If you're looking for more stuff, you could try dash rising j.s RC j.s j.h, and possibly set it up as shown here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZWxpbNZuK0&t=4m58s

Alternatively, mix it up by adding j.k (optional j.p whiff) throw.

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yes i know how to do it consistently now

 

i also made a chart of how the fuzzy works on every character (using deep dash jump slash) could be of use to others so il post it.

 

from easiest to fuzzy to hardest:

 

instant overhead jk, js, jhs works: potemkin, justice,
 
fuzzy is easy and overhead jk, js works. jhs whiffs, no full combo confirmable but can delay jhs for pressure: testament, baiken, order sol, sol, johnny, slayer, axl
 
fuzzy is easy, instant air jk works: robo ky, ino, ky, venom, eddie, aba, dizzy, jam
 
fuzzy is slightly harder, instant air jk still works: anji, may, chipp (harder to get iajk to work but it does) 
 
fuzzy is slightly harder, instant air jk whiffs: millia, kliff
 
fuzzy is difficult and air normal/double jump must be delayed a lot: faust, bridget
 
works but is extremely hard and may not be worth going for: zappa

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Kliff vs characters with good zoning and great anti-air and great keep away feels like 3-7 to me

 

:FA::DI::BR::JU:

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Also, is it possible to fuzzy Faust? I wasn't able to find anything yet.

 

If I hit him in his crouching state, his hitbox shrinks too much for me to hit him with anything else

 

EDIT:

So far after 30 mins in training mode, I was only able to do:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6voHGaZuBo

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ya faust works.  you just have to do the K/S reallly late and hit k as soon as the double jump happens. the only character that im almost 100% positive it does not work on is zappa.

i just posted how the fuzzy works on every character right above your post lol

 

also justice is def hard but if you can get in his face he cant do anything because you can combo him for free off of instant air jump k s h like potemkin.  

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What makes you think Justice is 3-7, Braver? I've found it about even, though it takes a lot of work.

 

also justice is def hard but if you can get in his face he cant do anything because you can combo him for free off of instant air jump k s h like potemkin.  

I wouldn't go that far. Experienced players can block instant overheads on prediction, and it can be tough to set it up while playing around her reversal super. It's definitely in your favour once you're in, though, especially since she can't fly away the way Dizzy can.

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Whoops, did not mean to add Justice to that. Before posting that, I think I was playing a Justice player.

 

That matchup is definately 5-5

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I find the fuzzy easier with j.S jc j.K because the extra hit/blockstun you can wait a bit after the hitstop and do the jump cancel late, then "link" the jc j.K. This lets Kliff fall a bit more before the hit which makes it easier.

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2k anti air, might be useful for the faust matchup, lol : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTD9mKkIbiI&t=7m25s (followed by an interesting setup, probably only works on faust though), still looks like a rough matchup. Anyways, happy to see lots of kliff footage from the recent event. 

 

Random thought I remembered watching that footage : vs potemkin, I was thinking about how to avoid backdash pot buster on wakeup reliably when going for a fuzzy... but then I noticed that I don't think BoB goes for fuzzy on him, instead just meaty 236p/2p into either j.k or 2k for a 50/50. Also probably safe vs judge gauntlet.

 

@Lofo : do you mean in general or vs Faust specifically?

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@Lofo : do you mean in general or vs Faust specifically?

It works in general but it really depends how high the initial j.S hits. I like it any time I feel my first hit might be too high, like vs May for example.

 

re:PO, Yeah I was actually just thinking today that that`s really what I should do. Funny coincidence.

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I wish j.H would just launch every time. Trying to do overhead combos on Justice like dashjump j.KSH, it seems so precise whether it launches or not that it just feels random. It has a very bad feel and I don't like it. :(

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I feel I really overrated 5H when we discussed antiair months ago. It's really good in a couple situations but it loses to so much. It rocks May's jump and I was playing against her a lot at the time. I'm not really happy with 6P usually but c.S is surprisingly good when it's niche comes up. 623H is the main go-to anti-air though. It does crap damage and you don't get a knockdown but it works and it builds good meter.

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5h is still pretty good after a 623h clash ;). But yeah its usefulness really depends on the matchup, some characters I also prefer to meet air to air, like Slayer.

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If your hurting for damage, CH 623H 1hit (maybe you can do a couple more, but 1 hit gives you the best stun from CH) RC lets you do a limb severer combo which you can imagine the rest depending on location (midscreen/corner) and the remaining meter. Aside from that its just really a shut out tool that may make your opponent second guess an air approach at best

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I'd experimented with 623H RC combos before, and I found it really hard to link anything afterwards because of the low hitstun. I just decided it was too impractical to be worthwhile. A counterhit would be helpful I guess, but that seems too hard to reasonably confirm. Is there some trick to this? I was doing 623H RC j.P etc

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I forget if I posted this anywhere but I've changed my mind about Kliff's DAA. It really is the worst in the game. pochp was right.

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I still love Kliff but I'm finding him hard to play these days. Here are some issues I have
  • Some of the worst options in the game vs pressure. Worst DAA, slowest close normals, slowest jump movement in the game, terrible super that's often unsafe on hit anyways. All he has is stance which is mashable anyways and his small hurtboxes which an experienced opponent will play around. I have an easier time defending with eg Venom, who at least has a good DAA.
  • His good damage requires extremely specific setups. His general damage conversion is just not impressive. I signed up for Klif in part by the lure of big damage, but in practice you just don't often get it against good opponents. There are other characters with consistently higher damage.
  • Poor options for controlling the flow of the match. His mobility is a kicker here. This is not backbreaking on its own, some other characters have this issue (eg Potemkin), but combined with how his damage works it's an issue. He's really good at punishing errors, but has difficulty actually forcing them.
  • Weak mixup outside of oki/fuzzies. His offensive throw game is entirely gimmicks and his only other mixup is his dust, which is reactionable to experienced opponents, so opening opponents up is difficult. This is a contributing factor to his trouble with controlling the flow of the match.
  • Restricted pressure options. Resetting distance for pressure requires a P-roar FRC, an IAD or both. His pressure is easy to learn but a bit simplistic and generally weak to jumping. fS, sweep, P-roar, drill, 2H are his best options once you're outside jab range and none of them stop jumps. 6H has the right hitbox but is much too slow. Once an opponent blocks properly on oki it's tough to really do much to them if they read your jump cancellable moves for airdashes (his frame-trapping is passable but a bit toothless without real mixup)
  • Extremely low stun (and contributing stun issues) without the compensation of mobility. I generally don't mind low health characters but Kliff doesn't have great options for damage control. Vs characters with strong stun options like May or Potemkin, the entire match revolves around not getting 1-touch stunned and he doesn't outclass their neutral games enough to make up for it.

 

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