[P4A] Naoto Shirogane - Gameplay Discussion "Ace Detective"

[Doonpa]

Ok so i decided to share another little trick that I've been holding out on telling people because im just evil. So there's another layer of oki/pressure that you can try doing involving a specifically spaced C trap that is done in such a way that it is just outside of the opponent's hitbox range so that the trap won't activate as long as they are crouching. If they do anything to extend their hitbox such as attacking, jumping, or standing, the C trap will activate.

Now there are plenty of ways to set this up, with the most common and reliable being in the corner using a knockdown via air hit 236A~D then set a D trap on their wake up, then a 5A canceled into C trap. The C trap should be spaced naturally by the 5A canceled into C trap so that it is just outside of their crouching hitbox range. The beauty of this is that it lets you get WAY better mix up then regular meaty C trap oki since you have the trap completely covering you while preventing them to do anything but roll and mash DP, both of which are easily baitable by simply sitting there blocking. If they activate the trap by standing up, you can react to the blocked explosion, indicating that they stood up so that you can hit them low quickly afterwards. You also have the option of going for AOA/ short hop j.A tricks as well among many other things such as throw, etc. Now the big problem with this set up is that the gap between 5A canceled into C trap is quite big and leaves you fairly vulnerable even with a D trap going off underneath. Most characters have moves that are fast enough to interrupt this, which is why you'll want to avoid this set up against characters with faster 5As and DPs. But, characters like Labrys and Liz EAD since their DPs suck and their 5As are slow, which is why you'll see Denpa go for this mainly against them. This set up can lose to something like roll, but if you condition them to sit there and take it via throwing the opponent before the traps go off, then they'll be less likely to consider it an option to go to.

I personally don't like replacing my standard C trap oki with this set up since its not safe against the stronger characters in the game. But, I do like this as a neat trick during pressure if I've lulled my opponent into just blocking me until i push myself out. Having a C trap hovering in their face is an unpleasant surprise off something like IAD j.A delayed j.B into C trap for an opponent. Everyone should remember that this is a very specific little trick that relies on respect and spacing heavily to pull off.

[Doonpa]

So I want to talk about Naoto C trap setplay in corner post air hit 236A~D knockdown:

The reason why I'm going back to these fundamental aspects of Naoto's corner oki is that all the set ups have flaws that I decided to go back and mull over because of LK's discussion of Mitsuru's setplay behind corner D bufula. Naoto's oki holds two different layers of mix up, revolving around the timing behind the C trap's initial set up, and around after the opponent commits to blocking the C trap. So ideally we have the first situation which is delay C trap/meaty C trap which essentially results in a Throw tech + DP bait. Delay C trap opens the opponent up to getting thrown or hit before the C trap, but the meaty C trap counter hits an opponent who tries to throw tech too early in anticipation to the situation as well as allows for DP baits if you block for a brief moment. This is a 50/50 situation as throws are way too fast to react to, and C trap activates too quickly to disrespect. If done properly, reacting to the delay should be almost impossible.

Now the second part of the mix up, the traditional high/low aspect of the mix up is mainly what I want to reevaluate. Lets first understand the different speeds of what we can use as part of our high/low mixups:

Lows

2A: 7f start up

2AB: 8f start up

214A~B: ??, B shot itself is listed as 4f start up, so id say this is roughly a ~7-8f+4f low set up taking into account the start up of 214A. =~12-15 start up low i'd say.

Highs

short hop j.A: , 17f+6f=23f (reactable)

IAD j.A: , 8f+14f+6f=28f overhead (reactable)

AOA: 24f (reactable)

2nd hit of 236A: actual move has 10f start up, but 1st hit adds 16f of block stun, making the second hit easier to react to, so i'd say this is about as fast as AOA with some gross mathematical adjustments. =~26f (reactable)

So the issue we have here is that in reality, Naoto's mix up is bad because there is a large gap between the start ups of her high options and her low options. What this means is that outside of the usual silly delay C trap throw/meaty throw pseudo 50/50, Naoto's shit loses to a simple OS involving briefly blocking low, then switching to high guard. This is of course disregarding using OMC, Hamaon, and SB traps for cute tricks. So the traditional answer to solving this problem is to simply delay whatever move to match the speed of your slowest move involved in the mix up to create the 50/50. But, the problem here lies in the fact that all of Naoto's high attacks are technically all blockable on reaction, with AOA and short hop j.A being the fastest at ~23 and 24f. So delaying 2A or 2AB long enough to create the mixup still won't guarantee you'll hit the opponent because they guessed wrong. So, my question to you all who care is how do we turn the mix up after C trap into a real dirty 50/50 mixup that requires guessing instead of relying on poor reactions? You also have to take into consideration the relative safety of the mix ups and the amount of block stun a C trap gives you to mix up off of. Figuring out these kinds of things is what makes fighting games hard.

EDIT: Forgot to give big thanks to Omex and Bace for throwing me some frame data info on short hop and IAD for my mix up comparisons.

[Wild Candy]

So I attempted to write a beginners guide for playing Naoto, and I have a rough draft ready. Would it be possible for me to get an opinion on it from an experienced Naoto Player.

[Random Naoto]

So I attempted to write a beginners guide for playing Naoto, and I have a rough draft ready. Would it be possible for me to get an opinion on it from an experienced Naoto Player.

Just post it or link a pastebin file, people will tell you what they think.

I found this exchange in some match footage today and thought it was a really hilarious ...Academic demonstration of how crummy traps are as a space control tool. Also for anyone wondering how big a buff D traps not being affected by air normals is, hopefully this will help you visualize it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQn1Gzweu0Q

[Wild Candy]

Okay, posted the initial guide, it will probably get updated as time passes and opinions are stated.

Hopefully it's not to awful... -_-;

http://pastebin.com/dKmwcKB3

[Random Naoto]

Okay, posted the initial guide, it will probably get updated as time passes and opinions are stated.

Hopefully it's not to awful... -_-;

http://pastebin.com/dKmwcKB3

It's not a bad effort and your desire to help the community is admirable, but until you write a guide that's better than the wiki page it shouldn't have it's own thread. You missed some important information like attribute invincibility, and some of the information is simply incorrect IE frames, move properties.

5A is indeed her fastest normal at six frames, but that makes it slower than the 5As of about half the cast, and you don't really mash out of pressure in this game.

5B should have foot attribute mentioned. It should also make mention of the fact that it has a low hitbox which gets completely avoided by almost any airdash moves.

2A both chains and gatlings into 5A, which can go back into 2A, so it's actually a really easy hit confirm, and leads to a knockdown, which is a big deal.

5AB is just a bad move. It's not even close to being one of the best universal overheads; it is technically the second fastest, but it's -20 on block, doesn't get guardpoint until frame 16 which isn't going to beat mashers, and she doesn't get much off a one more cancel spin state.

2AB no mention of leg attribute

j. A is used ALL THE TIME. It's her best overhead; j. B is better if you actually connect, but j. A starts up faster, chains, has a hitbox that allows for practical fuzzy guards, and is much easier to hit crouchers with. It's also the only way to reliably do a combo out of a short hop overhead in the corner.

5D does not home, it travels in a straight line. No mention of the persona being invincible or passing through the opponent.

5DD should mention the fact that it's really slow at 17 frames, and that the persona is usable between the time it finishes 5DD and disappearing.

j. D should mention that it stops your fall mid-air, which allows for ambiguous high/low in the corner when used with traps, and that you can continue to use/move the persona as long as it remains on screen with 5C/2C, or mudoon.

Counter shot EX should mention the durability of the projectile and how long the invincibility window is.

No mention of 236B/236AB feet invincibility from frame 1

236AB does NOT have 236A startup, it's only 1 frame faster than 236B; 236AB and 236B have 16 and 17 frame startups respectively. 236A has 9.

Didn't mention different properties of fifth gun shot.

No mention of 236B or 236AB fatal counter properties. Against everyone that isn't Narukami or Aigis, these are generally your best DP punish starters.

214AB is not a reliable defensive option if your opponent is timing their meaties; it doesn't gain invincibility until frame 4, and is unsafe.

214C/214D have identical recovery.

"C traps have quicker set up and recovery frames, but they have less untechable time then D traps, so they can only be used to control Air Space."

214C is extremely important for covering ground space in some matchups. Swift Strike, Kill Rush, and Yosuke run are a few examples of grounded moves that can only be stopped by C traps.

D traps are of questionable usefulness as oki tools; 7 frame start up means some characters can wake up with 2A as an option select to beat both the trap, a throw that isn't frame perfect, and in some cases a crossup attempt. Characters with 5 frame 5As can wake up 5A for a counterhit midscreen if you don't time the 66 214 D absolutely perfectly. In the corner where crossing up is not an option, you are almost universally better off using 214C as oki to prevent anything other than an invincible reversal or a roll.

214CD makes no mention of fastfall properties, combo use, or blockstun infinites.

236236A should mention use in burst safe SMP combos and the fact that it's safe on block.

236236B is used all the time, can be combo'd off of in the corner, has like 60 frames of invuln and is unarguably her best way to close out a round since it both baits bursts and lowers their fate counters for the next round. If you have 50 meter at the end of a round and can combo into it, you should.

236236C is one of her only ways to actually set up mixup since it leaves you like +50 on block, and has both a P1 and P2 of zero. See Denpa's videos for more info. This is very important. Should also mention it's use when the opponent has zero fate counters IE blockstring into 236236C, mix up for the IK.

B shots during raid cause more hitstun decay than A shots.

[Wild Candy]

Um... This might be an odd request, but can someone play a few rounds against me so and then give me critique... I don't have the means to record any matches and post them in the critique thread, and I don't seem to be really improving at all with Naoto.

Just message me here or on PSN, if you want to help me out.

Thanks for reading.

[Skoogabear]

Gunna be digging this up but is there ANY way to fight IAD crossups with Naoto? Both Chie, Akihiko, and Narukami's IAD quickturn attacks always get me and I have no idea how to deal with it. Her 2B sucks so bad :X

[Balguna]

You've just gotta block intelligently I'm afraid. If your opponent gets predictable with IAD crossups, you can just roll through them and reset the playing field.