[P4A] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[ryofoong]

So I was dicking around in training mode, and I was thinking about ending some midscreen combos in B.Bufu > Sb.Agi > Dia. Is it even worth it to stuck dia at the end of combos? From what I could tell, you gain so little health back, in addition to having to give up health to special cancel agi into dia. Dia kinda seems sucky in that regard.

Keep in mind that it's 1500 HP you gain in awakened mode. In awakened mode you take only about 62.5% or so damage. So for 50 meter, which is relatively easy for Elizabeth to get, she gets much more survivability. And she'll mathematically have more HP than someone with the 9500 average HP. So it's pretty good.

[TheArm05]

5C cannot be OMCed on block normally, but if you input a down direction as the second sword swing is about to hit or afterward, the game will then let you OMC the move. This is probably because the game thinks that you're doing 2C after you input 2ABC, which is a move that can be OMCed on block. Keep this in mind if the regular 2C/5D mix up isn't working against a tougher opponent (I.E. they are Instant Blocking the slashes to air guard the shout, or they have a guard point they can cancel into from 5A/2A to option select the shout's armor whilst stuffing the grab)

Wow this is actually HUGE for some matchups. Yu can instant block the first hit of 5C and normally would be able to punish you for free with Ziodyne from anywhere on the screen but with being able to OMC 5C you can make it safe. Same goes for Akihiko Maziodyne and a couple other supers.

Its pretty odd the way it works but it is really simple to do.

[Kiba]

So I was dicking around in training mode, and I was thinking about ending some midscreen combos in B.Bufu > Sb.Agi > Dia. Is it even worth it to stuck dia at the end of combos? From what I could tell, you gain so little health back, in addition to having to give up health to special cancel agi into dia. Dia kinda seems sucky in that regard.

Not to mention every little helps. Imagine that one time where you get hit by something and then you say to yourself, if only you had just a little more health, you could have survived.

[Elochai]

Whenever I'm quoted, I'm eternally reminded of my estate in the luxurious typo city.

[Diveman]

Wow this is actually HUGE for some matchups. Yu can instant block the first hit of 5C and normally would be able to punish you for free with Ziodyne from anywhere on the screen but with being able to OMC 5C you can make it safe. Same goes for Akihiko Maziodyne and a couple other supers.

Its pretty odd the way it works but it is really simple to do.

I keep telling people that mixing off 5C is not a good idea. After 5B is much better and a bit harder to read.

Also, it IS good that we have a gimmicks thread, but what we should also be discussing here is how to make our neutral game stronger, I mean, yes Liz's neutral game is not the best but its certainly not totally bad, and I think in the long run it's gonna be much better to have a solid gameplan with a few tricks than praying for 5C gimmicks to work and get Persona broken on the way.

[Ichipoo]

My God, I knew I was going to have fun playing Liz, but not this much. Sure she has low health, but at least her 5A and 5B are better than Naoto's (still love you my though detective princess <3).

Just need to familiarize myself with her 5C Rock-Paper-Scissor type mixup and get used to DIing Magarudyne properly in order to combo afterwards.

[TD]

I keep telling people that mixing off 5C is not a good idea. After 5B is much better and a bit harder to read. Also, it IS good that we have a gimmicks thread, but what we should also be discussing here is how to make our neutral game stronger, I mean, yes Liz's neutral game is not the best but its certainly not totally bad, and I think in the long run it's gonna be much better to have a solid gameplan with a few tricks than praying for 5C gimmicks to work and get Persona broken on the way.

you have a great point, but this kind of stuff needs more credibility (i.e good players) than we have now. not saying any of us are bad, just that we're still just getting familiar with her.

[Mightfo]

what do you guys do against players who block and just jump 5d on reaction

do you just try to stall for meter(and then..?) or take lots of risks trying to get into throw range

[Diveman]

you have a great point, but this kind of stuff needs more credibility (i.e good players) than we have now. not saying any of us are bad, just that we're still just getting familiar with her.

Yes of course, that's why I said it, so that we start experimenting with new stuff AS we learn the game, no need rush but practice it a bit in online/offline sessions.

what do you guys do against players who block and just jump 5d on reaction

do you just try to stall for meter(and then..?) or take lots of risks trying to get into throw range

depends on what are you using before 5D. 5B > 5D is a legit mixup because if you do 5b > 5C instead if they try to jump they'll get hit by it allowing you to get a free A.Bufu for example.

Also don't take too many risks, but you definitely need to be patient and stall (zone) a bit.

Remember that Liz is not really a zoner, she can do it but that's not her main gameplan (except maybe vs Kanji/Aki/Chie), she punishes hard for dumb stuff, so you need to create those situations and punish accordingly. For now I like to think of Elizabeth as a "semi-guile", in the sense that the main way of her damage comes from forcing the opp to take bad desicions or after you condition them with a certain mixup (like grapplers do).

That's why I think Liz is so interesting, her main gameplan is very "freestyle", but there are still things you can or can't do/abuse, but the #1 thing you need to aim after you get a combo, if you're not going for a reset is cornering them. There's a specific spacing Liz can have, where the opp is cornered + fear + stun, amd if they try to hit Thanatos out of 5D mixup (on wakeup) you can tag them with 5B into another big combo, in those situations 5D becomes godlike, also if you read a DP, roll or short hop you (you can't block during those btw) can punish them really hard too.

[Yannick]

Ugh, if j.C hit overhead...

[TD]

im getting ready to test out 5c a.bufu/j.5d. if they jump most characters cant hit thanatos early in the jump, those who do run the risk of extending their hitbox, leaving them in prime condition for a 2c, which will launch them higher and guarantee a nice combo. both a.bufu/j.5d and 2c would work with each other and form a jump/no jump mixup.

... at least, that's my theory it needs testing.

[Mightfo]

depends on what are you using before 5D. 5B > 5D is a legit mixup because if you do 5b > 5C instead if they try to jump they'll get hit by it allowing you to get a free A.Bufu for example.

you're presuming that they jump on prediction instead of reaction

[Diveman]

you're presuming that they jump on prediction instead of reaction

You'll be surprised how much they'll jump/poke after a few 5B > 5D, but I totally understand your point. The thing is, if you do 5C(2) into anything, they can jump out and escape the mixup completely, not even 2C hits them. 5C(1) into 2C or 5D is actually good though.

Again there are different types of players too, not everyone will react the same way vs Thanatos, some will react, some will predict.

[C0R]

5cc B Bufu isn't a bad callout by any means, opponent's wont be hitting buttons in the air in fear of 2c.

[Diveman]

Yeah I feel like rather than go balls out with Thanatos, it would be better to pick the right spots and go for them.

[Kiba]

Updates:

• 
  
• Geobuster's JD range extend trick and TD's Chicken block trick have been added to the gimmicks compilation.
  
• The data thread now shows Elizabeth's moves but the information there is very basic. If you want more, go to the Elizabeth wiki.
  

[VIDA]

Liz looks like she'll be good once ppl understand the game better. I saw a video where Kaqn made her look broken against Yu.

Any opinions? I'm getting the vibe the early consensus on her is that she sucks, which it doesn't look like to me.

[TD]

she might get a little better. at this point in time, l guess no one truly understands the character on a deep level, which, of course, is understandable considering the game is new. however there are some things that most likely won't change and might actually get worse as time goes on. like her mixup and oki.

liz is a jack of all trades and a master of none. you cant do one thing for too long, or at all vs certain characters, and the things you can do you have to seriously be on point with your decision making and yomi. overall she might end up being very matchup dependant. that's my two cents on her currently.

kiba, can we share the black/pink color palette? it's so sexy~

[SansProtocol]

Everyone uses that sexy ass palette lol. I'm using Green Bay Packers Liz because with the damage she has, your ass gets saaaaaaaaaacked.

Agree on the MU dependency. You're just going to end up using more of one or two of her tools than others in every match-up like you said. Which means it's imperative to get info into the matchup thread soon. Hopefully, I will be able to contribute after the tourney down here this weekend.

[Kiba]

kiba, can we share the black/pink color palette? it's so sexy~

Everyone uses that sexy ass palette lol.

I don't even know what to say here really.

Might as well use what you want TD.

[Prestizi]

j.D's range is normally pretty pitiful. However since Thanatos' summon position is behind Liz you can air turn so that your back is facing the opponent, and I shit you not, this will DOUBLE the grab's range. Not only that, but it can also be considered faster since Thanatos' position starts closer to the opponent instead of having to go past Liz. It's pretty stupid how much this improves the move.

THIS IS AMAZING

[ryofoong]

I don't even know what to say here really.

Might as well use what you want TD.

I use palette 8. Because purple.

[syzm]

Dizzy palette to brag about previously having $5.99.

And I've officially given up on anything other than a standard air combo off of 5D. Very rarely I'll find this mythical spot to hit both parts of j.B and land into 5B and proceed to drop it anyways because I was too busy thinking about what to do after it misses.

[WonderTonic]

An easier thing to do after 5d is to neutral jump or jump back (easier imo) and hit j.A, land, 5A -> combo. I just press jump maybe a quarter second after thanatos bites the opponent to properly time j.A right before i touch the ground.

Another way to get use to the timing of falling j.A is to time a whiffed 5A to come out at the same moment as Thanatos's bite and hold the desired jump directio

Edit: Actually, j.B, 5B after a 5d can be easy too. Just hold 8 or 9 as the grab connects depending how far from Thanatos you are, and hit j. B when your feet are around Thanatos head level (on the way down) and then 5B upon landing. You'll hit the opponent at the earliest possible so that Thanatos never really throws him.

Re-Edit: After testing you can aso use the first timing i listed for j.B > 5B as well. The only difference is you will hit j.B just a bit earlier in order to get j.B to hit in both directions before you land. The first method is probably preferrable as it applies to j.D too.

[UmaiCakes]

...or you do dash up 5B sweep D.Garu combo right as Thanatos throws, its higher damage than the jump back j.A/j.B anyways. Spacing for 5B is being about as close to Thanatos as if you were doing a 5D from the round start position, which is easily practice-able in training mode, you can get it from closer as well.

Of course if you're getting the 5D from completely fullscreen, like after B.Bufu j.C ender and then fullscreen pressure, you'd only be able to do the air confirm...