[P4A] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Synthesis]

I've played mirror matches against Bellreisa a bunch. That was fun. Pretty much on the last match neither of you can do anything without fear of mortal blow. Landed it on Bell after he SB.Agi'd me on oki.

Just hit 5As and cry.

[TD]

we have the worst mirrors ever. seriously. and l thought loli vs loli was bad.

[Eshi]

Is not like you HAVE to use it everytime. Also I dont do it vs Akihiko.

if by not using every time you mean never using outside of a combo, then yeah, I guess so. There's so many universal and character specific ways to punish it on reaction, I feel like it only ever works because of match-up unfamiliarity.

On another note - what are people's feelings on Elizabeth in regards to relative character strength or exact match-up number? Sometimes I feel like she's shittier than Kanji and other times I feel gross as fuck. Though I guess it's sort of Liz's nature in this game with her insane risk/reward extremes. Also, I feel like Kanji is not nearly as disadvantaged in this MU as people assert. Liz has really strong tools for keeping him out, but god have mercy on your soul if he gets in or baits an f-action.

[xlolxlolx]

the matchup isnt that uneven at all....she dies in 2 command throws or a combo into command throw =/

[TheArm05]

On another note - what are people's feelings on Elizabeth in regards to relative character strength or exact match-up number? Sometimes I feel like she's shittier than Kanji and other times I feel gross as fuck.

This so hard. There are so many times against good players I feel there is no way for me to ever open them up with Liz and I am lost on what to do. Then I happen to land a random 2B/5C and training mode my way to winning the round.

However in most of the matchups in the game I don't feel at a disadvantage. I feel like she beats Kanji, Naoto and Yukiko. She loses to Mitsuru, Slab and Aigis and goes even or close to even with the rest. That's my personal opinion though idk. I'm curious what everyone else thinks too.

That being said it is real easy to get blown up by Kanji or wreck a Slab/Mitsuru but thats just the nature of the character.

[Synthesis]

This so hard. There are so many times against good players I feel there is no way for me to ever open them up with Liz and I am lost on what to do. Then I happen to land a random 2B/5C and training mode my way to winning the round.

However in most of the matchups in the game I don't feel at a disadvantage. I feel like she beats Kanji, Naoto and Yukiko. She loses to Mitsuru, Slab and Aigis and goes even or close to even with the rest. That's my personal opinion though idk. I'm curious what everyone else thinks too.

That being said it is real easy to get blown up by Kanji or wreck a Slab/Mitsuru but thats just the nature of the character.

Yeah, I really feel like the Kanji matchup isn't nearly as bad as 7-3. Probably 6-4 or even more even. Kanji F-Action beats any kind of Thanatos attempts midscreen, his dive can punish Zio, and he has good zone control with his air command throw and his insane normals.

It's really all about who gains momentum first.

But dat Teddie matchup is insane. D=

[GBS Giovanni]

Kanji getting in options don't really compare with Liz's ability to keep him out. All of his option involve him making prediction/guessing what you going to do. Otherwise, for every option he has, she has a better answer.

Also, I believe Yukiko beats Liz. Likewise with Naoto.

[xlolxlolx]

with that being true......if he gets 1 command grab the round shifts pretty much entirely in his favor

[Rishtopher]

Kanji matchup makes me sad because I get so cocky when I have him immobilized, then he can hop>EX air command grab and it's downhill from there. Lesson learned, don't get cocky.

[bellreisa]

my matchup tiers

pretty hard: mitsuru / yosuke / yu

hard: chie / naoto / kuma / aigis

evenish: shabrys / yukiko / akihiko

advantage: labrys / kanji

that being said;

i think liz's 3-7s and 7-3s are completely blown out of proportion in both directions, mitsuru isn't unwinnable and kanji isn't free

[TD]

mitsuru is fucking gay. kanji, l think it's like 6 or 6.5 liz favor. kanji might be a better tager but similar to tager, kanji has a lot of stuff that can be beaten on reaction by liz. yeah she dies really quickly...and? first, she dies really quickly vs pretty much everyone, it's not really a kanji-specific perk. second, it's not over till it's over vs liz. she has the comeback potential of justin wong. lastly, in MU's like this l go by the philosophy of 'you shouldn't even be getting hit'. liz can keep kanji in her clutches the entire round if played correctly. alot of his fullscreen stuff is easily punished or dodgeable, and you shouldn't be close to him to begin with. will you always get perfects? no. but knowing the MU is a huge, huge step to beating many a kanji's asses in a smart fashion before he can grab momentum.

[Diveman]

Also is not like Kanji can't get 2 or 3 good mixups in you and kill you. Is just that he needs to work really hard to do so, so as long as you respect his stuff and don't do too man risky stuff you should be fine.

Sometimes I feel like Liz is a marvel character, she can always comeback no matter how low her health is.

[Elochai]

Imo, the Yu/Mitsuru/Yosuke match ups are the hardest. Akihiko can be somewhat of a pain in the ass if he's pressuring really hard.

[TD]

l don't think yosuke is particularly difficult, contrary to his style you just have to play really slow and steady. l would actually put it like, 'one of the hardest, but not hard.' l'd say 5.5 yosuke tops. but that's just me.

yu is annoying. definitely 5.5 yu or more, but probably closer to that number. it's not free but it's difficult to do the norm against him. once he gets that oki going you might die. YU OKI TOO STRONG!!! rofl

once again, and l can't say it enough times. fuck mitsuru.

akihiko's pressure is very good, and the MU changes once he gets 25 heat, or able to use maziodyne. l dunno. l feel like it's even because it just feels easier to keep this guy out. garu hurts and is super easy to do on him.

l dunno if liz has 6-4 MU 'sides that rich ho, but yukiko and naoto are really going to try one's patience.

[Eshi]

Okay, how I feel about match-ups. My best offline experience is with Kanji, Chie and Mitsuru.

I don't have a problem with Yu. His oki is super good but I find it easier to react to than Chie's. My blocking is pretty strong. Otherwise, he plays like any other character with good footsies. 5.5 sounds okay.

Chie is a fucking bitch. Not only does she get ridiculous unreactable 50/50 oki from anything, but if she gets close and starts 5A staggering then Liz is fucked. It's a major symptom of Liz having the worst F-action on top of the slowest A pokes. I'm thinking it's 6-4, possibly worse. This is one of the characters I get the most practice against.

Mitsuru is another bitch. I've practice against her so much that I have a much better grasp of the match-up, but the amount of shit Mitsuru shuts down with her A pokes and EX Coup Droit is so stupid. Hands down her worst match-up, possibly 7-3.

I feel more comfortable against Naoto now but it's still a strange match-up. It takes some getting used to and it's pretty easy to get an unlucky persona break. 5.5 maybe.

Kanji feels around the 6-4 area. He's distinctly disadvantaged but not as badly as we are against mitsuru. If we get a hit in on Mitsuru, she still has plenty of options to immediately turn the match back around... if Kanji gets a hit, you're probably dead.

Aki and Labrys feel pretty even. Both characters have plenty of tools to deal with each other. SLabrys might be different, but I still have a ton to learn in that match-up. Yosuke's a dick. I actually don't terribly mind Aigis so far other than Megido in neutral. I have no clue what to think of Yukiko and Teddie, I have yet to play competent ones.

[Diveman]

I often play a very good S.lab player, and I can say the matchup feels kinda "even-ish" except when Slab knocks you down, there you basically have to be really good at blocking or she'll repeat the process over and over. The GOOD thing, is that she absolutely can't punish Zio very well and doesnt have a clear answer vs Sb.Agi too, her 8C (the one with Asterios going underground and doing an uppercut) tracks you, so u gotta pay attention to what she's doing from far as well, but you can easily dodge it. Is isn't a bad matchup by any means, but you gotta respect her stuff when she's close and try to gain more space asap, otherwise I feel Liz does well vs Slab.

[TD]

will slab's 8d stop tracking if you get her to block or hit her?

forgot about chie, yeah that MU is around 6-4. on top of her insanely good pressure she good mobility and fast normals. her 5c covers alot of space with good startup so shes not completely useless midrange. meteors get her in instantly and there isnt shit we can do about it but get mixed up to oblivion.

[Diveman]

^ If you hit her, yes. Otherwise it won't stop.

Oh also she can't random Titanomachia from fullscreen unless she super jumps; it's a free A.Zio.

[Eshi]

I did not know that, thanks for the info!

[Yannick]

SB.Zio beats meteors as long as none of them land smack on top of Betty's dainty head.

[Elochai]

Doesn't Liz totally poop on Yukiko? We can A.Zio fans, and beat out maragi with EX maragidyne, or Zio. The only issue with Yukiko is that her doing Dia from full screen forces Liz to run up and do the dumb stuff.

I forgot about S.Lab (I don't really play against this character), but I agree with Diveman. I think from a character perspective, it's pretty fair. It's just that I suck at blocking tricky stuff, and I get demolished almost every time.

[TD]

we can indeed punish quite a bit of yukiko's gameplan. once she gets the momentum it may be a little difficult to stop her, and patience will become key.

[xlolxlolx]

especially if you get caught in unblockable setups =/

[Rishtopher]

I can't remember what my friend does to set this up, but when we have Liz vs Yuki matches he uses a super to get me on the other side of the screen and charge his unblockable when I'm falling. Then, as I'm teching on the ground, he does that fullscreen reverse fire pillar super (I forget the name). It used to get me a lot til I learned to mash Hamaon on wakeup for the invincibility.

[TheArm05]

If Yukiko tries to wakeup/reversal with any of her supers you can mash R-Action or Ghastly Wail for a free counter hit on her. It really shuts down her wakeup game pretty hard.

I don't really see how Yukiko beats Liz at all. Liz is hard for Yukiko to deal with at neutral as A.Zio OMC is like a free get-in or a free combo if you get the wall stick.

Sure if Yukiko gets in on you it is REAL hard to get her off but that is no different than most of Liz's other matchups anyway.

A or SB.Zio -> OMC (hold 6) is real awesome btw guys. The distance you can get a wallstick with this is crazy (esp off of SB.Zio) and it leads to tons of damage. It is good against the characters that like to press buttons full screen like Aigis, Yukiko, or Naoto. It is still dangerous on whiff but it is a strong tool nonetheless.