[P4A] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[MashThat5A]

we understand. and seriously... liz vs liz is the worst MU ever... l don't even think that MU is 5-5 liz favor...

Liz is low tier in the mirror match tier list.

[Elochai]

Liz is low tier in the mirror match tier list.

Mirror match tier list?

2C OMC > 2C is godlike.

[Tiger]

Soon going to become active here once I get my laptop tomorrow, though I recently been training on elizabeth, starting to realize my playstyle mainly involve using thanthos as a tool to keep my opponent away from me and that I'm a very defensive Liz XD considering her playstyle I'm not sure if that is good or not. Though Yu and akihoko still remains my hardest match ups so far

[Eshi]

I feel like I've been duped. I've been going in as hard as I can on Elizabeth to get to a high level as soon as possible, but once I got a taste of it, I realized that all of the reasons I wanted to play her stop applying. She can not mix up with her persona without OMC. The best players will hold down back through everything, while reacting to Liz's 5D animation, then persona break her trying. She doesn't have anything to condition a different response. She's reduced to a keepaway character with 50-90 whiff recovery frames on everything until she gets enough meter to even think about going on the offense.

Hopefully this is just the phase before I have an epiphany on how to get to that next level. But damn. It is depressing how intrinsically flawed of a character she is.

[GBS Giovanni]

It's the main reason why she was considered low tier before the game came out here. Yet for done reason, people couldn't grasp that concept until now.

This message was sponsored by the Phoenix King.

[TD]

basically what giovanni said eshi. once you hit that plateau, that's it. you're going to have to start doing some real unorothodox things which aren't guarenteed to work, because she has a rather limited pool of options, sometimes none at all.

also, you can mind charge asap so you get 150 sp to mixup faster and more, and to gain access to all her options which can def. come in handy.

l play liz because she's a very cute and very whimsical character. l know she's bad and l knew from the beginning that l wouldn't be winning tournaments with her, but who am l to deny character love? you have to find that reason as to why you play the character so you can get through the hard times.

(or you can just pocket mitsuru.)

[TD]

ALSO. why in the flipping !@#$ does 2b have or need 18 active frames on a 9 frame, everything-cancellable, huge hitbox, big damage normal? hands-down this is her best attack period.

[Tiger]

Actually her limited options is what attracted me to the character in general given I was going to be a Amagi main before the game was released on consoles. Her limited options provides the player to be able to think on thier feet and keep ahead of the game. Even though she has a terrible defensive game in many situations you need to figure out ways around it and catch your opponent off guard. These things are what really attracted me to Elizabeth in the first place and its quite fun freakly. I enjoy figuring out different ways to approuch Tue player during a match because once I get in chances are ill be staying there <3

Also I noticed 2D hits my opponent even when they do an evasive action its been a fun thing

[Eshi]

ALSO. why in the flipping !@#$ does 2b have or need 18 active frames on a 9 frame, everything-cancellable, huge hitbox, big damage normal? hands-down this is her best attack period.

don't forget how it puts her in jump state which counters throws. It has a short horizontal hitbox and whiffs vs. cross-ups but otherwise is 100x better than all of her other moves. Combined.

[Elochai]

I feel like I've been duped. I've been going in as hard as I can on Elizabeth to get to a high level as soon as possible, but once I got a taste of it, I realized that all of the reasons I wanted to play her stop applying. She can not mix up with her persona without OMC. The best players will hold down back through everything, while reacting to Liz's 5D animation, then persona break her trying. She doesn't have anything to condition a different response. She's reduced to a keepaway character with 50-90 whiff recovery frames on everything until she gets enough meter to even think about going on the offense.

Hopefully this is just the phase before I have an epiphany on how to get to that next level. But damn. It is depressing how intrinsically flawed of a character she is.

Lol, I remember a while back, I came in here raving that I had nowhere left to go with Liz. I'm glad that someone else finally felt what I felt back then. Anyhow, like TD said, you're gonna have to start doing some pretty odd things, but I kinda find that fun in itself. When you achieve yomi level 1,000,000, it feels great, lol.

I just wish Liz wasn't so bubbly damn it; maybe I'd be interested in another character if she didn't have that personality of hers.

[Kaialynn]

Yep, that's pretty much a summary of liz. I can't find it in me to drop her because of three reasons, though:

1. That feeling you get when you *should* have lost a game, but get out of the corner, get a mixup, and kill the opponent from full health

2. I'm a staunch character loyalist ;_;

3. Doing #1 and when she wins the round getting her hime laugh.

[TD]

liz for cryptic hime tier.

[Elochai]

liz for cryptic hime tier.

[TD]

mysterious princess. since she has a death persona, l decided to use CRYPTic instead of the former. you know... crypt. death. it's a pu- *gets shot*

[TheArm05]

Yeah I had the whole "how do I break down back" emo phase as well.

Recently I have been having a lot of success with 2D to break down back. Either end a combo with it or sneak it in when they are in the corner. If they are poisoned then them downbacking is juuuust fine.

Also 2D has some crazy fast recovery. If you 2D and they try to jump in on you in reaction you can 2B them for free.

It is really just about getting in their head. Once they are afraid of you they will start pressing buttons and eating 5C/2C again.

Stick with her you know she is too much fun to drop

[TD]

poison isn't particularly useful except in certain matchups, naoto and yukiko come to mind, there are a few reasons as to why. first, poison takes a long time to become threatening. while liz loves to stall, a lot of the cast doesn't, which leads to the second issue. a lot of characters can punish liz from throwing out pretty much anything even fullscreen. with a rather lacking keepaway and zoning game, it's only a matter of time before she gets nipped (or punched in the face. hard). then poison is gone. even on her pressure, which she barely has, the foe could dp in a lot of places. besides that her pressure isn't particularly long, unless the foe is super respectful. in which case, 2b j.b is gdlk.

l guess if you think you won't get hit for 20 full seconds you're good, but in that case you should be using mahamaon setups.

[Synthesis]

The thing with Liz is that she has 0 mixup. My assessment of her thus far:

Mixup: F - Has 0 high/lows, crossups etc... mixup is in 5D/2C or other random stuff, which is still awful.

Pressure: E - Pressure is non-existent midscreen. In the corner, it's extremely beatable, although harder than midscreen. Block low all the time.

Defense: F - Lowest health in the game, 0 defensive options. F-Action is useful but can be broken. Guard cancelling is out of the question. 2B is your best defensive move, but you need the time to use it.

Damage: SSS - Highest average damage in the game, with ridiculously high meterless damage off optimal hits. Full health combos aren't uncommon.

Zoning: C - Extremely high whiff recovery and overall recovery makes zoning against certain characters unreliable. Plenty of the cast can punish her full screen on block for some of her zoning tools.

Oki: D - All of her oki options cover less options than they beat. Amazing reads are necessary to land a hit here. Even SB.Agi oki is easily beaten. The only reason this isn't E is because of her tech traps, which will only work for so long, but then you gain access to 214C corner oki, which is good.

Abare: A - Converts extremely well. Only reason it isn't S is because of random Zio hits and certain moves that aren't picked up very easily (214A air unblockable).

Overall, I see her as a very weak character, but I love her so. D=

[Eshi]

I'll add some of my thoughts to your assessment as well.

Mixup: F - Has 0 high/lows, crossups etc... mixup is in 5D/2C or other random stuff, which is still awful.

[Synthesis]

snip

[Kiba]

Elizabeth frame data is done.

For those wondering 2C has 5-9f head invulnerability. Also, the lower the number for the P1/P2, the better. It's the opposite for BB frame data in other words.

P4A related, 0 is fantastic whilst 1000 is the max and terrible. For instance, D Magarudyne and 2C have a P1 of 0 (expected), whilst the P2 of 5D is 1000 (which literally means anything you do afterwards will most likely drop. 5D/JD heavily prorates.)

[TD]

but you still somehow get 4-5k off of it. same with aoa's

[OutlawVinegar]

She also has on of the slowest AOA's in the game, too.

I feel like Liz's AOA is sorely underestimated by Liz players. I know that like just about every other All-Out, it's very punishable on block, but it seems to me like Liz's All-Out has the best horizontal range in the game (if not, it's second only to Teddie), as well as having (imo) a somewhat subtle startup animation and a respectable amount of auto-guard. Given that she's a character who has fewer meter concerns than most, it feels like her AOA is a pretty well-thought out tool; if it were better, it might be too exploitable.

but you still somehow get 4-5k off of it. same with aoa's

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was referring to 5D's P2. That would mean if it was comboed into, right? And for that matter, doesn't the P2 get affected by Fear in some way, which 5D always inflicts?

[Diveman]

Oh yeah Liz's AoA has pretty good range. It is particularly useful in the corner where if you stand at a range where your opp moves won't hit(which varies per char, but let's say Akihiko), but Thanatos' attacks will; you can get them with a sneaky AoA into huge damage. Of course it is unsafe, but I feel Liz can afford more OMC than others because of 1 obvious reason which is her constant meter gain and another not so obvious: her combos only spend 25% meter in the corner (SB.Zio) unless you're using Memento Mori/Ghastly Wail.

[SansProtocol]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but he was referring to 5D's P2. That would mean if it was comboed into, right? And for that matter, doesn't the P2 get affected by Fear in some way, which 5D always inflicts?

The P2 applies to every hit after said attack in a combo, regardless of whether or not you started your combo with 5D or used it sometime after (like CH 5C > 5D).

Fear does not affect the proration of a combo. It only increases the hitstun of the moves in the combo afterward and boosts the damage on the first hit because it's considered a CH.

[Eshi]

Elizabeth frame data is done.

For those wondering 2C has 5-9f head invulnerability. Also, the lower the number for the P1/P2, the better. It's the opposite for BB frame data in other words.

P4A related, 0 is fantastic whilst 1000 is the max and terrible. For instance, D Magarudyne and 2C have a P1 of 0 (expected), whilst the P2 of 5D is 1000 (which literally means anything you do afterwards will most likely drop. 5D/JD heavily prorates.)

that explains why CH 5C > 5D is so hard to follow up. Cool.

I feel like Liz's AOA is sorely underestimated by Liz players. I know that like just about every other All-Out, it's very punishable on block, but it seems to me like Liz's All-Out has the best horizontal range in the game (if not, it's second only to Teddie), as well as having (imo) a somewhat subtle startup animation and a respectable amount of auto-guard. Given that she's a character who has fewer meter concerns than most, it feels like her AOA is a pretty well-thought out tool; if it were better, it might be too exploitable.

I never land her AOA against good players unless I'm using the super armor to predict DPs. The animation is not subtle and very slow. There's no way I can agree with you there, I don't use on high level players anymore because it never works.