TD Report post Posted October 5, 2012 thanks for clarifying outlaw. gonna have to agree with eshi on her aoa's viability though. 'it never works' isn't even exaggeration. it's gimmick tier at best. l understand alot of her attacks are bad solely because of invigorate, however at least make it slightly medicore for reliability's sake. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Synthesis Report post Posted October 5, 2012 thanks for clarifying outlaw. gonna have to agree with eshi on her aoa's viability though. 'it never works' isn't even exaggeration. it's gimmick tier at best. l understand alot of her attacks are bad solely because of invigorate, however at least make it slightly medicore for reliability's sake. Her moves being bad because she has invigorate is the stupidest balancing decision I've ever heard. They realize she has to use that meter to zone/combo/pressure/oki and EVERYTHING, right? And that she gains 0 meter for landing hits. And we have a meter gain cooldown for using meter. If anything, these nerfs to meter gain and reliability already made up for the fact that we gain meter passively. And the fact we don't have a reliable reversal super (everyone else in the cast has one). So they gave us something interesting, but nerfed us straight to hell to "balance" it out. I call bullshit. There's no reason a character like Chie should have 5A staggers and 2B dash cancels as well as an amazing AoA and great reversal options, meanwhile Liz gets nothing but passive meter gain and high damage. Talk about balancing. xD Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ryd' Report post Posted October 5, 2012 Everyone's meter gain goes on cooldown when they burn SP, it's not a penalty exclusive to Liz. No, everyone does not have a reliable reversal super. It's a lot more likely that most of Liz's options have a lot of inherent risk and are difficult to land reliably because of the huge potential payoff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
xlolxlolx Report post Posted October 5, 2012 i think narukami's kakusei super is pretty reliable :D Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eshi Report post Posted October 5, 2012 Everyone's meter gain goes on cooldown when they burn SP' date=' it's not a penalty exclusive to Liz.[/quote']I don't think he was saying that it's exclusive to Liz, so much as that Liz's main mechanical quality is negated by it and no one else has that problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Synthesis Report post Posted October 6, 2012 Everyone's meter gain goes on cooldown when they burn SP' date=' it's not a penalty exclusive to Liz. No, everyone does not have a reliable reversal super. It's a lot more likely that most of Liz's options have a lot of inherent risk and are difficult to land reliably because of the huge potential payoff.[/quote'] What Eshi said. And the only character aside from Liz that doesn't have a reversal super is like, Teddie. >.> And to be fair Liz does have one, but it's just a pause button. xD The more I play other characters the worse I see Liz as. She's bad. D= Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TD Report post Posted October 6, 2012 it sucks, but hey. she's just like a worse version of rachel (of whom they've balanced wisely after ct and cs) imo, and they should have taken more pages from hime's book. she should have decent zoning at the least, zoning and really good rushdown at best. even if liz could zone well she'd move up in the tier list. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diveman Report post Posted October 6, 2012 yeah I feel like I have to freestyle a lot with Liz to win. There isn't like a "this is what you should be doing right now" rule for her, you gotta feel the opp and act/react accordingly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elochai Report post Posted October 6, 2012 I wish she could zone better tbh. She's okay beyond that in my opinion, but taking repeated trips to gimmick city per play session kinda makes me disheartened, but maybe that's because I like 5D way too much. Anyways, I just wish that if this game gets a second version or some such, they make her zoning specials better. D or C agi aren't worth shit . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eshi Report post Posted October 21, 2012 Just letting people know: I've had some amazing breakthroughs on the Chie match-up and am now fully convinced that it's 5-5. Liz is looking better and better every day! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elochai Report post Posted October 21, 2012 Yay! Glad you didn't give up on Liz. I assumed a lot of people did, since it's so quiet around here these days. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eshi Report post Posted October 21, 2012 Yay! Glad you didn't give up on Liz. I assumed a lot of people did, since it's so quiet around here these days. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elochai Report post Posted October 21, 2012 Yeah, I was a bit discouraged as well, but I've grinded it out and got past the hump lol. I'm still trying to win a tournament with Liz (or get at least 3rd place), and I think Saturday is my day. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SansProtocol Report post Posted October 23, 2012 Just letting people know: I've had some amazing breakthroughs on the Chie match-up and am now fully convinced that it's 5-5. Liz is looking better and better every day! Stockholm Syndrome victim here. :3 But yeah, it's not bad. Just hate her 2A low-profiling my 5B lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TD Report post Posted October 23, 2012 ooh, do share. l would love some insight myself (l don't get much lab time lol). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elochai Report post Posted October 24, 2012 I was contemplating some things in my head because waiting in between classes is super boring, but has anyone considered the potential of b.bufu? Besides the basic a.bufu for the unblockable air reset, j.C knockdown can let you go for full-screen meaty 5D (though I'm sure everyone knew that), or attempt a 2C reset (that again, I'm sure is commonish knowledge). I believe the question being begged by myself here is "what is the opponent most likely to do?" I mean, how many times can we go for meaty 5D after the j.C? I think the a.bufu/2C reset is kinda the same as well, with the difference being you'd have to be pressing buttons (?) to be hit by the 2C, as well as aerial rolling forward. Sorry for the "wall of text", or whatever, but I'm just curious as to whether or not b.bufu has more potential then what I'm seeing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AeternumSomnium Report post Posted October 24, 2012 I was contemplating some things in my head because waiting in between classes is super boring, but has anyone considered the potential of b.bufu? Besides the basic a.bufu for the unblockable air reset, j.C knockdown can let you go for full-screen meaty 5D (though I'm sure everyone knew that), or attempt a 2C reset (that again, I'm sure is commonish knowledge). I believe the question being begged by myself here is "what is the opponent most likely to do?" I mean, how many times can we go for meaty 5D after the j.C? I think the a.bufu/2C reset is kinda the same as well, with the difference being you'd have to be pressing buttons (?) to be hit by the 2C, as well as aerial rolling forward. Sorry for the "wall of text", or whatever, but I'm just curious as to whether or not b.bufu has more potential then what I'm seeing. Not sure I quite get what you're asking, but I have been actually trying to use B.Bufu a lot more lately because frankly, I've grown kind of fond of it for some reason. When you say you're wondering if B.Bufu has more potential, are you wondering if it is better than you/others initially thought, or if it's worse/useless in and of itself compared to A.Bufu/AB.Bufu? Personally, I find B.Bufu far superior--as long as you time it like a boss. As I've gotten over my slump online I've become more and more aware of how much aerial decimation/mid pushback I can do when I've timed it well. The jump-into-combo potential is obvious needless to say. Forgive me if I didn't help answer the question at all, I may just be confused. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elochai Report post Posted October 24, 2012 Nah, it's alright, lol. I'm not so good at English composition as I'd like to be. I'm just basically asking is there more to b.Bufu then a few setups (I listed some like j.C > meaty 5D, or 2C pseudo tech trap). I mean, if your opponent saw you trying to do meaty 5D a lot for example, they would jump, right? So then you'd go for like a.bufu air unblockable at the next instance you'd get them into a situation where you're ending the combo with b.bufu. An example of something I've been working on is that pseudo tech trap, where if you tech and don't block, or press a button, 2C hits you, and you can confirm for a 4.2k~ combo. Afterwards, since that combo ends with b.bufu > j.C, you can do a meaty 5D. I hope this time, my ideas came out clearer. Sorry for the confusion. I dunno, it seems like my ideas are all over the place. I should be ashamed, seeing as English is my first language, lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AeternumSomnium Report post Posted October 24, 2012 Ah alright, nah don't apologize it's my bad. Interesting thought, sounds legitimate. I've never tried 2Cing for a tech trap before, bloody genius. & Dem meaty 5Ds--I don't actually try them after my j.Cs amazingly, reading that makes me wonder what the hell I've been doing this whole time. Sounds brilliant lol. Learning a lot haha Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elochai Report post Posted October 24, 2012 You never meaty 5D? What's your usual go-to thing after a knockdown then? If not meaty 5D, I'd just try to poke with 5A or something lol. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AeternumSomnium Report post Posted October 24, 2012 You never meaty 5D? What's your usual go-to thing after a knockdown then? If not meaty 5D, I'd just try to poke with 5A or something lol. Haha I usually just stand there and throw a 5b to 2ab sweep. If that doesn't work I usually do a J.C and try to get away. Although I do throw in a 5C every now and then. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Lol, meaty 5D sounds a lot more reliable. Sometimes I try to 5a but people (Especially considering I run into a LOT of Yosuke's and Mitsurus online for some reason) usually get me first. Dem dead cat reflexes... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elochai Report post Posted October 24, 2012 Well, now I feel kinda inspired to make a video about this, even though I feel it's kinda late. Expect it to be done/uploaded on Friday/some time on the weekend. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AeternumSomnium Report post Posted October 24, 2012 Do it. I don't run into many Liz players online--and I don't get on here as much as I'd like to so any visual-info trade is welcome in my books haha Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kaialynn Report post Posted October 24, 2012 Do it. I don't run into many Liz players online--and I don't get on here as much as I'd like to so any visual-info trade is welcome in my books haha I saw you in a room the other day, I think it was while I was afk on autopass for quite a while but I was cleaning up my living room, if I remember correctly your Liz was pretty decent, but one thing that def stuck out to me is that you had 3 or 4 situations to do the AoA -> OMC -> Coffin combo (opponent didn't have burst, you clearly had the meter or enough to mind charge for the meter) and you would have won the round if you had done it, but you didn't. Also, I noticed at least 6 times where you got a CH/FC 5D and went for the usual j.A > j.B > j.A > j.B > j.C combo, whereas when it FC/CH's, you get a wallbounce and can do something like (Wallbounce) 5B > Sweep > Ex. Garu > D. Garu > 2A > 5B > Stuff, it does a lot more damage (I'm still trying to wake up and I can't remember my CH 5D combo at the moment, but it does 4-5k) as opposed to your ~2.1 off a CH. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eshi Report post Posted October 24, 2012 I was contemplating some things in my head because waiting in between classes is super boring, but has anyone considered the potential of b.bufu? Besides the basic a.bufu for the unblockable air reset, j.C knockdown can let you go for full-screen meaty 5D (though I'm sure everyone knew that), or attempt a 2C reset (that again, I'm sure is commonish knowledge). I believe the question being begged by myself here is "what is the opponent most likely to do?" I mean, how many times can we go for meaty 5D after the j.C? I think the a.bufu/2C reset is kinda the same as well, with the difference being you'd have to be pressing buttons (?) to be hit by the 2C, as well as aerial rolling forward. Sorry for the "wall of text", or whatever, but I'm just curious as to whether or not b.bufu has more potential then what I'm seeing.For me, the main usefulness of meaty 5D isn't actually the grab, but rather that it pushes the opponent away when used at the perfect time. So if they try to reversal on close range wake-up thinking it will punish her, it will instead whiff in her face for a huge punish. From midscreen, I usually just air dash if I want to go for mix-up. it's unlikely that good players won't react to any of liz's persona mix-up. From full screen, I like to go for a super meaty 2C and catch them with a frame trap. I'm wondering though, is there a situation where meaty 2C > 5C will frame trap and not be vulnerable to 5 frame 5A? or maybe slower 5A's? I don't know where to look at her frame data. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
