[P4A] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Kiba]

NP Mightfo.

TD thanks. I don't actually have that video, I'm quite surprised. I'll get that match and the others included in the vid thread!

Edit: Turns out I only had two of the vids, but I didn't have the rest.

[GBS Giovanni]

kyou is a boss lol. this guy is insane. fuck mitsuru. we, are going to have our hands full and our blood pressure high with her ass. and since shes apparently 2nd easiest to play in an already easy game + the mitsuru army + 7-3 matchup currently, ugh. just ugh.

TBH, I think it's a 3-7 only if the Mitsuru player is competent. There will be ton of people playing her, but how many of them will actually be good enough with her to be scary? Also, with an abundance of people playing that character, makes it easier to grind the match up to where you'd only have trouble with good ones.

[TD]

it wont be 7-3 vs worse mitsuru's but l still doubt it'll be anywhere near easy. the fact that mitsuru's tools are just overall better at dealing with elizabeth won't go away, and the low execution standards in this game means even bad mitsuru's will be converting hits into combos. maybe not strong ones but they still hurt liz.for a MU to be 7-3, there's a huge imbalance of advantage, and droit seems to be the hugest problem but not the only one.

also, let's not forget that when the game comes out, mostly everyone in NA will be on equal footing. of course skill differences will became apparent over time but that time cant be measured. we still need to actually go through the process of learning without getting discouraged, and theres no doubt in me that such process will be very strenuous.

[TD]

also, l would loooove to see more of mind charge + diarahan in combos, like (ex) bufu/ex maragidyne, mind charge cancel (-50/75 heat but gain 150), (diarahan x2 from ex bufu, or diarahan, sweep from ex maragidyne). l feel like thats a legit win condition for liz, make her a 'real' character with defense boost + alot of life to exploit with. it'll make running away a legit strat! of course this is just my take and theory but it sounds really good in my head...

[TD]

l saw 5c(1) delay 2c midscreen that baited naoto's r action and punished with 5c. that's really good to know down the line.

[Kiba]

also, l would loooove to see more of mind charge + diarahan in combos, like (ex) bufu/ex maragidyne, mind charge cancel (-50/75 heat but gain 150), (diarahan x2 from ex bufu, or diarahan, sweep from ex maragidyne). l feel like thats a legit win condition for liz, make her a 'real' character with defense boost + alot of life to exploit with. it'll make running away a legit strat! of course this is just my take and theory but it sounds really good in my head...

I, don't think you can use Diaharan twice after EX Bufu. I'm sure they break out before you can attempt to do it again, and if the time taken to break out of EX Bufu was that long, it'll be really good for Liz to basically get her health back.

l saw 5c(1) delay 2c midscreen that baited naoto's r action and punished with 5c. that's really good to know down the line.

This is definately good to know because I believed that Naoto had an easy answer to Elizabeth's Thanatos pressure. 2C also leads into really good damage so thanks for that.

[SansProtocol]

Were you guys interested in anything specific for Liz? Playing the game here with Romey and Kurushii so I just wanted to see.

Also, Liz's auto-combo can be disrespected after the second A on block with a DP since there's a hole. Doing 5AA > 5B > 2B > j.B melds, though. A Zio is useful for punishing full-screen spam of projectiles and items (like Teddie) to break a Persona primer. Ending combos in SB Zio is overall useful if you need to establish space and put your opponent in the corner. Both B Zio and the SB version are safe, the SB version being even more so. Memento Mori ("Get Yo Ass in the Coffin") feels most useful when used to punish an opponent who's recklessly approach on the ground or other whiffs. j.A and AoA are her only overheads; 2A and her sweep are her lows.

I'll write more up when I get home.

[TD]

@kiba, oh, youre right, it only freezes as long as b version right. that sucks.

@sans, l have a lot of stuff to test. is your body ready for it.

[SansProtocol]

Maybe, I already have all of the damage values to figure out the p1 and p2 of moves. What did you have in mind?

[TD]

l cant find my list so i'll just remember what l can.

after 5c 2c b bufu midscreen: 5c(w), 5c, b zio (it should hit behind the foe and be safe). l just want to know if that works.

after bufu in corner, see if high(ja)/low(2a)/throw mixup readbeats. i dont remember if kiba had the chance to test this last time.

after b bufu midscreen: d maragidyne. is it punishable?

is mamudoon/hamamoan unblockable?

(fear/ch) shuffle time combos. like (midscreen) shuffle time, mind charge, dash 5c stuff, or (corner) ch shuffle time 5a 5c 2c b bufu AoA OMC memento mori

can her ja instant overhead (lol). is jc really not an overhead.

thats all l have for right now

[TD]

oh and does sb bufu refreeze the foe after a normal bufu like how jin's freeze mechanics work.

[Kiba]

Were you guys interested in anything specific for Liz? Playing the game here with Romey and Kurushii so I just wanted to see.

Great. Nothing comes to mind atm, but I'm interested in what more you have to say about Elizabeth.

I already have all of the damage values to figure out the p1 and p2 of moves.

Fantastic.

[xlolxlolx]

does d garu on block>rc>j.a fuzzy? :o

[SansProtocol]

Only with B Bufu does the high/low mixup in the corner redbeat.

The D Agi after B Bufu midscreen is very punishable.

Both Mamudoon and Mahamaon are blockable, even in the air.

j.A can't instant overhead, j.C is not an overhead.

SB Bufu does not refreeze the opponent after the first Bufu.

You can't combo after Shuffle Time even on CH/Fear Fatal.

Testing B Zio's safety after that combo now.

[TD]

ah

damn

damn

damn

damn

damn

damn - wait, l saw this on her challenge mode in the corner? ch shuffle time microdash 5aaa a bufu. it's probably really tight but it should work?

and alright

thanks sans XD

@lol, l dont think garu is an overhead. if j.a hits most standing foes, then deep j.a rising j.a should be a fuzzy guard :o

[xlolxlolx]

well im pretty sure youve seen japs use garu to approach/do stuff, im assuming if you rc>j.a slightly above ground then you'd fuzzy them if they were standing and i remember reading jap wiki a couple months back that her j.a has trouble hitting crouchers

[SansProtocol]

Oh, the microdash challenge. It may work but I'll need time. It's so damn tight in between the throw and 5A.

j.A doesn't hit a standing opponent on the way up, so it can't be used for fuzzy guards.

The B Zio isn't safe and doesn't appear behind the opponent. It may be just me on making it appear behind the opponent but it's not safe regardless.

[xlolxlolx]

i meant falling j.a

[TD]

you can do that but it wont 'fuzzy' them because garu isnt an overhead. the difference is that you'd have more leniency with how high you can hit a standing foe, because when the crouch they'll still retain a standing hitbox, if it were an overhead. because it isn't you'd have to do it low enough for j.a to hit a crouching foe always. against the smaller crouching hitboxes, garu rc j.a may be impossible. and if you say j.a has trouble hitting crouchers in general, it might be pretty difficult to pull off on anyone. l have yet to see garu rc j.a myself though, just garu rc 2/5a.

[TD]

Oh, the microdash challenge. It may work but I'll need time. It's so damn tight in between the throw and 5A. j.A doesn't hit a standing opponent on the way up, so it can't be used for fuzzy guards. The B Zio isn't safe and doesn't appear behind the opponent. It may be just me on making it appear behind the opponent but it's not safe regardless.

damn. alright thats everything until l find my list of stuff, but you might not be able to play then lol

[xlolxlolx]

i think youre misunderstanding somethings.....you dont have to do an overhead into another overhead in order to fuzzy, even if you whiff j.a then you can probably throw since people aren't likely to try and press buttons

[TD]

you are correct. l just tried it myself (in bb). rachel's j.c is not an overhead but she can still fuzzy guard from it. l apologize for the misunderstanding.

so my guess is, yes, liz can fuzzy j.a from garu, it should be airtight.

[SansProtocol]

5A: 200

5A[A]: 9 x ? (500 dmg total with max hits)

5AA[A]: 12 x ? (750 dmg total with max hits)

5AA: 470 (5A autocombo to second hit)

5AAA: 873 (5A autocombo to third hit)

2A: 160

5B: 9 x ? (750 dmg total with max hits)

2B: 450

5C: 800 x 2 (1200 dmg total with both hits)

2C: 600

5D: 0, 900, 450 (1350 dmg total)

2D: 0 (inflicts Poison)

Throw: 0, 1400

AoA Overhead: 300, 1280 with 15-hit AoA follow-up (without launch or blockback attack)

j.A: 200

j.B: 5 x ? (540 dmg total with max hits)

j.C: 850

j.D: 0, 900, 450 (1350 dmg total)

A Zio: 180 x 10 (990 dmg with max hits)

B Zio: 180 x 10 (990 dmg with max hits)

SB Zio: 134 x 20 (1407 dmg with max hits)

A Bufu: 800, ? (1195 dmg with both hits)

B Bufu: 800, ? (1195 dmg with both hits)

SB Bufu: 800, ? (1216 dmg with both hits)

C Agi: 300 x 9 (1443 dmg with max hits)

D Agi: 300 x 9 (1443 dmg with max hits)

SB Agi: ? x 11 (1669 dmg with max hits)

C Garu: 200 x 9 (1000 dmg with max hits)

D Garu: 310 x 10 (1705 dmg with max hits)

SB Garu: 280 x 11 (1680 dmg with max hits)

Memento Mori (Ghastly Wail): 0,0,2500 (4200 with Fatal Counter [Fear])

I'll be figuring out the other values with combo testing but that's what I have so far. "Max Hits" means the damage the move does when all hits connect. The 5A[A] and 5AA[A] means the single hit of that move in the autocombo. 5AA and 5AAA means all hits/moves in the autocombo up to that point.

[Kiba]

Thank you I'll update the data thread with the values.

[Starlight777]

So what colors you guys using when y'all get your hands on this game?