[P4A] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

[Ichipoo]

Did anyone check the write up at norematch.com? I think it's a very good read for Liz players as it talks about her weaknesses and how to improve her overall game

http://www.norematch.com/2013/03/23/the-problems-with-p4u-elizabeth/

The last sentence of the comment after the article leaves you something to think about IMO.

I main this character too and I must say I completely agree. It’s sad to see that one of the most unique and interesting fighting game characters is so bad. It seems to win a match I have to play tons better than my opponent. It also sucks to see some of the best Liz players (Damosu and Okusan) create and learn tons of tech, mixups, and combos, yet still lose to other characters’ flowchart playstyles. Honestly, I don’t understand this generation of fighting games, where the easiest to play characters are so much better than the ones who take tons of skill and/or execution to use.

Then again I play Naoto, not Liz so I'm not sure if I should agree with the sentiment or not.

[Eshi]

I really disagree with that article. Elizabeth is one of the worst characters in the game for sure but only because of her really bad match-ups against Yu and Mitsuru. Otherwise she is extremely viable. She has other bad match-ups but they're completely winnable. Some of her tools are bad but some of them are amazing, so stop using the bad ones when they're too high risk (changes by match-up).

I totally disagree with the idea that Elizabeth has a lot of useless moves. Of course her instant kill supers are useless. Literally everything else has a useful purpose though, and 2D isn't bad at all.

Honestly, the only area that Liz is cripplingly weak in is defense for obvious reasons. But even then she still has 2B, Mind Charge and a decent backdash that all work in the right situations. She has quite a few decent offensive options that all lead to retarded as fuck damage. Her neutral is actually fairly strong. I really love Liz's completely unique playstyle and don't at all think she's cripplingly weak.

[Diveman]

Well, Mamuudon, mahamaon, 2D are kinda ass.

The main thing I see with Elizabeth, is that most of her "tech" is gimmicks. They are very strong ones, but they're still that, gimmicks. I reckon if she could have a solid strategy or gameplan to go, she would be much better than now.

[Elochai]

2D isn't ass. The damage it does can be kind of useful if you get it guaranteed (ie using it in combos), since it'll still be doing 1,200 regardless if the opponent is in awakening or not. I would agree that due to their situational nature, Mamuudon & Mahamon are horrid. I don't think I've ever found a use for Mamuudon.

Agree with your second point as well. If most of her game wasn't gimmicks, she would be infinitely better. However, she can still be fearsome when she's capitalizing on mistakes that the opponent makes. Like Eshi said, Liz can get retardedly good damage off of anything, so when you punish someone for them hitting Thanatos for example, you can easily do like 5K and steal the momentum of the match.

[bace]

Liz needs fish bubble from VSAV

[Eshi]

Elizabeth has a lot of entry level "Do you know the match-up?" gimmicks to beat uninformed players for free. But she is capable of so much more than that, she's just not ridiculously autopilot like Chie or Aigis and requires inventive finesse with her toolset. She's B tier even if she's the worst character in the game.

[Diveman]

I disagree a bit. She's obviously not auto-pilot, but she's definitely gimmicky which is not a bad thing but still. I played vs tons of people with Liz and I could beat scrubs/uninformed people for almost free, but the people who knew gave me troubles.

I would like to see in a future next version, if it ever comes out, some of her moves maybe changed a bit, tone her damage down a little (like, still good damage but not retarded like now) but with much better tools to control the pace of the match, also a way to induce Silence (Rage would be pretty BS, so no).

The way I see her now, is that because of her big damage if you end up eating one of her gimmicks you can die right there in 2 combos (1 + reset), but sometimes you won't even get started because of A) you'll get blown up by Chie and friends or B) They won't buy your gimmicks. So I definitely want to see something new for Liz in future versions, not so focused on big damage but more on screen control + status inducing moves.

[YukiBlue]

She's still fun...Right? I really wanna just play Liz but Y'all making it sound awful

[Kiba]

Whether you find Elizabeth fun will completely depend on how you feel with her once you get to play.

I'm sure we all find her fun, but she's difficult to use. It's as many have said, most of her game just consists of gimmicks and how successful that is completely depends on how much knowledge your opponent has on her. The more they have, the harder it is for you.

[Eshi]

She's still fun...Right? I really wanna just play Liz but Y'all making it sound awful

Liz is ridiculously fun, she's not awful outside of match-ups with Yu/Mitsuru and it still takes a strong player to show it. I really resent the idea that Liz is some Tager clone that just goes for air tech resets all the time. Even if she is "gimmicky", she has so many more tricks in her arsenal that it should be impossible for opponents other than match-up experts to know them all and react correctly at all times. You certainly don't have to worry about that in the US >_>

[TheGearHead]

Is it appropriate to compare Liz to a Jack in a Box? If your a person who has never seen her or know about her you will most likely be surprised and overwhelmed. For those who know what she is capable of doing they may know what's going to happen but can still be surprised by little changes which we call "gimmicks." Pretty much she can be a great and fun character to play as each Liz player has certain habits/gimmicks that make them unique from other Liz players; meaning opposing players can't know for sure whats going to be used. Sorry if this sounds too lengthy just came home from boring lectures.

[Diveman]

She's mad fun to use dont get me wrong, is just that at high levels it becomes harder to surprise people with her stuff. I truly believe her most solid mixups involve OMC like 5C omc or 2C omc.

So yeah she IS gimmicky, but her gimmicks are very strong.

[Elochai]

each Liz player has certain habits/gimmicks that make them unique from other Liz players

Honestly, this isn't the first time I'm hearing this, and I always find it weird. When I have asked a bit about how I play against how others play, it was sometimes considered to be a gray area. Part of me wants to believe that us Liz players being so diverse differs from having different fundamentals or something (I know, this sounds kinda silly) or because Liz is just that diverse in and of herself. While a tool may have a defined use, you can use said tool in many differing ways.

[Elochai]

I was thinking of updating that gimmick video I made way back in September being that our character has evolved much since then. However, instead of making one based around gimmicks, I would want to do a video that just showcases what our character can do as a whole. In a sense, taking the entire tips & tricks thread, and making a video out of it, along with some stuff that isn't in there. Don't know when I'd even start this since I'm lazy as all hell, but I'm interested.

[Kurushii]

Just to make this publicly known. The mook site made some corrections. The following are Elizabeth's which I already corrected on the wiki:

Sweep: Active 15, Recovery 7 (Was missing originally)

Mabufudyne: A/B versions are FC's. (Was missing originally)

Maragidyne: C version is +116 not +86 static diff.

Mind Charge: A/B versions are 4-6 not 1-6 invul.

[TD]

unbelievable. all those failed wakeup mind charges finally make sense. -.-

[Eshi]

yeah. I knew that wake-up mind charge was high risk and now I understand why.

Liz players should only use gimmicks that only work once when it will secure an important victory, like a tournament match (most air tech resets). She has a lot of tricks that don't stop working when they've seen it once. My favorite is 2B OMC into fatal counter high/low/throw, but 5C 2OMC is working its way up there. She's got a lot of room for growth.

[Kiba]

With the long wait for P4A coming out in Europe it's really hard to maintain interest in the game. I don't have the game and so it makes sense for me to not mod the Liz forums right?

So with that said, please welcome your new mod Eshi. Do this forum proud.

[susano]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=inZ-LBzSP4E#t=231s

How on earth do you do this? Like how do you connect this? I decided to try Elizabeth again (against the advice of a friend who said he mains her and it's torture). I just really like her. I even started studying Bace's videos and started learning better combos! :o

[godofwar7]

Crouch confirm into 5C(2) ABufu Microdash IAD jB and you see the rest

its pretty hard to do though. To practice microdashing, I've been grinding corner combo DP Microdash 5A ~ stuff. unfortunately i suck at IADs so... :/

while we're on the topic of advice on how to do stuff.

2B OMC j.A. How do???

[TD]

You just have to do the exact sequence really fast. Make sure you're pressing j.a before you touch the ground.

[susano]

Crouch confirm into 5C(2) ABufu Microdash IAD jB and you see the rest

its pretty hard to do though. To practice microdashing, I've been grinding corner combo DP Microdash 5A ~ stuff. unfortunately i suck at IADs so... :/

while we're on the topic of advice on how to do stuff.

2B OMC j.A. How do???

I'm staring at the video for like ten minutes and I'm still clueless on how to connect that. So its a microdash? But...how? ._.

I is confused.

[Elochai]

You don't have to microdash at certain ranges (lol, this is obvious though). If you have to do the microdash though, input the 66 as the ice is dissipating off the card in Elizabeth's hand. Just IAD as usual from there.

[susano]

You don't have to microdash at certain ranges (lol, this is obvious though). If you have to do the microdash though, input the 66 as the ice is dissipating off the card in Elizabeth's hand. Just IAD as usual from there.

Okay, I think I understand now. I'll just have to try in training mode.

[Eshi]

You have to input 6696 fast to get micro dash iad. It took me a loooong time to get it right in both directions.