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[P4A] Elizabeth Gameplay Discussion

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nerfing the top tier assholes of this game would be enough of a buff to Elizabeth for me, personally. Yu/Mitsuru are the only characters I loathe playing.

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I can't help but feel that ASW was initially scared about Liz being overpowered, even before the initial arcade release. She has an incredible set of tools, normals, and damage on paper. Most likely they were worried about how strong that could be, so they just made her laughably slow. The low health matters somewhat, but not as much as her speed does. If she was faster, her pressure could potentially be called mixup.

I feel that it's highly unlikely that, in the event of a patch or new release, Elizabeth wont get buffed. p4a was her test period and they'll figure out what they can improve next time. I think it's similar to how developers treat grapplers in first releases.

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nerfing the top tier assholes of this game would be enough of a buff to Elizabeth for me, personally. Yu/Mitsuru are the only characters I loathe playing.

Yes, me too. Still learning Liz but those matches are a pain in my ass.

I can't help but feel that ASW was initially scared about Liz being overpowered, even before the initial arcade release. She has an incredible set of tools, normals, and damage on paper. Most likely they were worried about how strong that could be, so they just made her laughably slow. The low health matters somewhat, but not as much as her speed does. If she was faster, her pressure could potentially be called mixup.

I feel that it's highly unlikely that, in the event of a patch or new release, Elizabeth wont get buffed. p4a was her test period and they'll figure out what they can improve next time. I think it's similar to how developers treat grapplers in first releases.

Yeah, I think they were afraid that people would start complaining about that. I just wished I had stuck with Liz the first time I started playing this game. I'm not the best person in the world at keep away but I would like to improve and feel that's my playstyle.

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I think I've played Elizabeth enough, competitively and in casual matches to share my thoughts on this matter:

Elizabeth is "bad" simply because everyone else is just "better" than her. Elizabeth's tools aren't inherently bad (for the most part), but everyone else's just destroy hers. Narukami MU is a great example. His 5B & 2B can completely body Elizabeth whenever she's in range of them. 2B stuffs Liz's j.B (which IMO is her best tool), and his 5B destroys our 5B, 5C, etc. A lot of characters have better staggers with 5f 5As and Elizabeth has one of the slowest 5As in the game at 8f (I think only Yukiko is slower by like 2f). The hitbox on 5A isn't bad though, and it can AA some moves with good spacing.

However, other tools we have are just outright not very good. 5C, for example, will get DP'd or poked by some characters for free. Nothing Elizabeth can do about it unless both of you are in the corner, but that doesn't even work sometimes as our safest punish (range-wise) isn't always fast enough to catch the opponent punishing Thanatos. A lot of 5As are 10f on recovery if I remember correctly, whereas 5B has a start-up of 11f. 5B isn't very good either, considering it's not safe unless the move is cancelled before the cards return to Elizabeth. Otherwise, you get DP'd or mashed on for free. Cancelling into 5C isn't really good because you're going to lose a card, and 2B can whiff if you're too far. 2C/5D have obvious flaws as well.

With all of this being said, I would like to say that Elizabeth shines immensely on the offense. Ironically, I've come to believe that Elizabeth should be played passively; punishing and capitalizing on mistakes so you may take the offense, since it's really hard to hit people by just trying to normally pressure them. One AA can turn the match from being on defense, scoring 4.5k~, and giving you a 50/50 mix-up situation. Sure, you can't block forever, but with how "bad" Elizabeth's offense can be, it's best to have a good defense IMO. Plus, we have 5f grab, and it's amazing.

Sorry, long post, and I hope I hadn't come off as complaining. Just my thoughts.

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Shout outs to Bace/Kobayashi for getting top 8 at UFGT.

Yeah, how the hell did they manage that? No offense to them, but no matter what you do, Liz is free as fuck once you learn how to deal with her.

I think everyone just didn't know how to play against her.

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Liz is pretty free in some matchups, but Bace is capable of beating everyone in that top 8 except Lordknight. If you ever played against him you'd know. So I guess you won't know till then. Kobayashi isn't close to his level, but people will always have to downplay a guy's performance. Just be happy there was two Liz mains in top 8 and rejoice.

PS- Bace and I play each other all the time.

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Liz is pretty free in some matchups, but Bace is capable of beating everyone in that top 8 except Lordknight. If you ever played against him you'd know. So I guess you won't know till then. Kobayashi isn't close to his level, but people will always have to downplay a guy's performance. Just be happy there was two Liz mains in top 8 and rejoice.

PS- Bace and I play each other all the time.

Not saying they were bad, saying Liz is bad. All of Liz's options are easily beaten by almost all of the cast, thus my confusion.

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Bace is really good but he didn't play well in top 8 imo. he kept going for 5c 2c omc 5c 5d for his offense and it was ridiculously obvious every time.

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Casuals with ZomB last friday made me super, super sad. Chie can just run out of B mabufu > D maragidyne reset and get right on top of Liz. She can also mash 5A out of 2C > C Maragidyne corner oki. For every cool setup Liz has, there's a 100% avoidance answer to it. Playing her is like trying to succeed with CT Tager =/ On the plus side, I'm getting better at recognizing and executing fatal counter hit confirms.

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I think that's because Bace knows ZomB's habits. IE, he has him downloaded pretty hard (not that Chie MU is impossible or anything).

Anyhow, I've been realizing that other characters have answers, too. More specifically, I recall playing a Mitsuru maybe a week or two ago, and he used droit to get out of 214C oki.

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Did you know Bace destroys ZomB super free? Maybe you should ask him for some tips.
He did tell me that playing with Bace taught him a lot about the match-up, which would explain why I died so hard. With time I can catch back up and go even with him again, but it's just so disappointing how bad most of her setups are. Like, I love those 2 setups, yet they're both 100% avoidable by every character - dash out of the first one, hold up back out of the second or mash when possible.

Maybe I just play too respectfully and need to fear throw people more often :I:

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I think that's because Bace knows ZomB's habits. IE, he has him downloaded pretty hard (not that Chie MU is impossible or anything).

He didn't. ZomB doesn't play online and bace was winning very solidly from the start of the UFGT sets, well before downloading could occur.

The downloading was how he kept landing Liz CA against ZomB's 2/5DD oki, totally different. '3' source: was sitting next to them all weekend at ufgt. I'm trying to harass bace into posting some help soon but no promises!

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Think I'll be exploring those character escapes today.

@Omex: Lol, Liz CA. That thing is honestly garbage. I don't see how anyone can get hit by it. All you have to do is jump cancel on reaction (or cancel into DP :v: ).

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In case I fucked up my findings, for reference, I used the combo grab OMC > 5C > 2C > 214C.

Akihiko: Closeout Blow SB > Duck SB gets him out. If you've already committed to doing a 50/50 by doing IAD AT, you can't tag Akihiko with 5A punish. Alternatively, SB Cork followup works too, and if he thinks you'll 5A him, he can just do that. Duck SB > Boomerang Hook SB also works (BH only because Akihiko would want super armor or a punish).

Narukami: Swift Strike SB/D gets out, but Liz can block it I think. C version trades. I think these are his only options that physically remove him from the corner. Supers can be done, and they'll avoid most of the flames save 3-4. However, if blocked, Narukami gets bopped. He gets hit on whiff, too (in case you committed to mix-up).

Yukiko: DP, lol. 236236D trades if not blocked (if you're doing air turn mix-up stuff). 214214D/C gets bodied, but the flames still come out.

Chie: 66 AoA if you aren't committed to jumping for a mix-up. If you are mid-air already, 66 DP tags a flame pillar and Chie flies away. 2B trades against Thanatos & Liz. Not sure if this is advantageous or not.

Kanji: Eh, not sure. 236236A trades on Liz jump start-up. I think he just has to eat it.

Yosuke: After Sukukaja, he can just dash out. No joke. If he's not in Sukukaja, SJ towards the other end of the screen works. Dash Spring SB (shout outs to GOOOOYAH) works to get out as well.

Aigis: I think Goddess Shield is the only answer. Not sure either.

Mitsuru: Droit SB trades, Bufudyne breaks Thanatos, and hits Liz if she's in the air. 5A OMC breaks Thanatos, but doesn't let you get out.

Kuma: Delayed DP or Circus get him out.

Labrys: DP > Beast super OMC gets you out at the cost of 100 meter. For the most part, I think she has to eat it as well.

SLab: 66 DP gets her out of the range of flames.

Someone should check these just/explore further to make sure. After about an hour or so, it's all I found.

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anyone with a 5 frame jab can just jab thanatos and the flames never come out (yosuke, chie, akihiko). When I go for this setup, I always hold down back for a half second. That way, if they rage DP I will block and punish it, and if they roll (yes roll is a universal escape), I can reaction counterthrow back into the corner.

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Yeah, I forgot to add the roll as a universal escape. Never knew about the 5A thing though.

Tbh, I should just downback for that half-second, too. I just go so autopilot when I do the setup that I forget that you can do that lol.

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What do people think of the Akihiko match-up? I played against Audio33(?) on netplay the other day and he megabodied me. Akihiko's mix-up and 5B fatal off a throw bait seem really strong against characters with bad reversals. I have to really resist the urge to just panic spam 2B. I love that she can just F-Action through his whole Maziodyne super.

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she can keep him away decently, it's just once he catches her he can pressure her just as 'decently' :v:

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