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Kiba

[P4A] Elizabeth Self Improvement and Critique Thread

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It sounds kind of silly I suppose, but you should work on how you start rounds. You're usually doing something risky/unsafe (AoA/BD) which better players will punish you for. Backdash/backwards IAD (occasionally with j.B) are some ways that I like to start the round since they give me some breathing room.

On a similar note, you need to work on your neutral. Neutral game is seriously difficult though, but it doesn't seem like you use a lot of Elizabeth's tools. Agi and Zio are very good zoning tools that you sort of neglected. j.B is a very good spacing normal as well. Generally, you don't just want to run up to your enemies and 5D them. As you said, it's a way to lose persona cards. It can be worse though. Run up AoA/BD isn't a good thing to do either. Better players will kill you for this, too. If you're adamant about running up and pressing buttons, I'd at most suggest you use 5A and go into "stagger" pressure (ie 5A > 66 5A > 66 5A > 5AA etc). Run up IAD back j.B is okayish, too.

You should also learn how to use 5C/2C/j.C/5D. I notice that you just go for 5C > 5D a lot. It worked on this guy, but repeated 5D use only hurts you in the long run. Eventually, people will start to jump away. This is where 2C comes in, as it catches jumps/mashing. 214X works in a similar way, but it's way riskier. There're more "advanced" strategies using Thanatos such as fishing for hits in the corner (do something like 5C > 2D, and then punish your opponent for taking your persona card), or OMC > run up grab.

Grab is 5f (which is really fast), but don't get into the habit of grabbing a lot. You can combo off of grab midscreen if it's counterhit. In the corner, you can combo off of grab either way (though non CH requires 50 meter for OMC). Speaking of combos, you should grind them out in training mode. You got a bunch of hits, but never really did anything with them. In this version, Elizabeth has big girl damage. You may as well inflict it!

If you want a visual demonstration of some basic combos (this video was made in September 2012, so it's kinda outdated, but it's good for what it is), check this video out.

If there's anything else you need help with, feel free to ask.

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I've got some more matches where I'm less awful that I could record and upload tonight, but they'd have to be soundless because my parents are asleep and I have to crank the TV way up to have sound in the kludged setup I use to record.

I mostly run up and attack because I know how poor Liz's air options are, and being forced into an air fight with just about anyone is a losing situation for me. The way I look at it has been, "Well, if everything I can use is on the ground, I should be too unless I have to leave it." with regards to Liz. I've found that if I use Agidyne in anything other than a guaranteed not-gonna-get-hit situation - such as the opponent turtling or being another Elizabeth trying to heal - then it's going to get punished. Zio is nice, but I don't like to use it too much against Yu because they like to just slide under it and continue their hijinks once they find out they can. I only use AOA if the opponent is recovering or otherwise extremely unlikely to punish it before the startup. I use BD a lot because it's like a longer-range, status-inflicting grab that can get me out of corners.

Thanks for the tips though. I'll learn to play more cautiously and do what I can about learning some combos.

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I'll start off with some habits you showed you have

-a lot of different grab habits, pretty much looks like you default to wanting to grab if theyre near you. Some examples: wake up grab, grab after one blocked 5A, grab when SKD empty jumps you

-after j.C knockdowns you went for 5D meaty way too much

-a lot of airturn j.D, even when they're right next to you you sometimes default to wanting to get this read. Doing j.D like this is about covering space or getting a read on someone. You aren't using it like that.

-you pick odd times to mash in general, after one blocked button its not just grab you do a lot of weird mash like roll or 2b

Other things to note

-Stop doing garu combos into 5A 5C, 2A > 5B or just raw 5B if possible is always better

-If youre going to do the 2b ch j.B route do 5b sweep dgarux2 and not just 2b jb 5a 5c

-for future reference you can roll a lot of this 5dd mixup

-when narukami has meter you have to watch out on your mixup because he should be looking to super your thanatos mixup on reaction

-last round first game you shouldve tried to get a gold burst since he was baiting your blue burst so hard, you couldve got it on the ja 2b setup

-at 3:01 you dont have to do B zios when youre doing zios like that, unless youre close to them and want them to block(b zio low to the ground is around +9 +10) just do A zios

-at around 5:30ish, blue burst into ex flames is not a good idea and really risky, even tho you got away with it in here you couldve lost the entire round to this decision

-at 5:40, you couldve picked up this ch 2b with 5a

-at 7:24 you shouldve did a.bufu(youre probably aware of this tho)

-at 8:08 using the meter for ex flames damage was questionable

Misc notes

-blue flame setups can get killed by 5a by characters with 5f 5as, skd didnt do it in this set but he couldve just broken thanatos over and over with 5a. Its a risk because you can just 5a or 5b behind thanatos to tag his button but its an option to keep in mind

-whenever you do j.C knockdown into air dash j.B, keep in mind the entire cast has options for this like 2B or sweep low profiling it

In general I'd say to work on confirming better, learn when/where to mash against things, and vary your mixup much more. Mixup isn't actually mixup anymore when youre doing the same things a lot of the time. Liz does not have anything rigged enough to just repeatedly do like other characters(Narukami 5d)

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Here's my scrubby opinion:

In a general sense, your neutral game is not that bad. I like the way in which you use j.A/j.B. Seems you're aware of their utility. On the other hand though, I have to really question how you use 5C. Seems to me like it's kind of haphazard, for the lack of a better word. Some times you would just throw it out, and get punished for it (ie - Chie rolling past 5C, meteors CHing your 5C fullscreen). Tech>garu is kinda shady, too. I also notice that you don't like to use mazio or maragi, but I suppose that's more so because of this match up than anything else? I think they're good tools personally.

I think you should pick more "stable" confirms, too. Maybe it was just netplay, but I noticed you dropped 5b > 236d a bunch. If anything, you might as well have confirmed into 2ab > 236cd. You'd have to spend meter, but the damage would be pretty much guaranteed.

Was 4:51 a grab mash or missed input or something? Seemed pretty odd to me.

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Thanks for the response! I'll try to give you some kind of explanation for the points you brought up.

I have to really question how you use 5C. Seems to me like it's kind of haphazard, for the lack of a better word. Some times you would just throw it out, and get punished for it (ie - Chie rolling past 5C, meteors CHing your 5C fullscreen).

My 5C habits were almost fixed before I stopped playing. Some of the 5Cs in this video were me missing things at neutral like C Agi or me trying to confirm something I thought I could and failing miserably. I was also trying something new and failing at that as well. I was trying to force my 5C to get blocked so that I could OMC and wait for them to punish it. That way, I could actually set up Maragi oki reliably or attempt to punish their punish (that sounds silly). Other than that, my 5C habits are pretty bad, lol.

Tech>garu is kinda shady, too.

You'd have to explain this one to me, as I have no idea what you mean by this.

I also notice that you don't like to use mazio or maragi, but I suppose that's more so because of this match up than anything else? I think they're good tools personally.

That's more of a player thing than this being a match-up habit. Colpevole knows my Zio and Agi habits, so I have to opt out of using them most of the time to avoid getting punished at neutral or letting him approach me for free.

I think you should pick more "stable" confirms, too. Maybe it was just netplay, but I noticed you dropped 5b > 236d a bunch. If anything, you might as well have confirmed into 2ab > 236cd. You'd have to spend meter, but the damage would be pretty much guaranteed.

Well, my confirms are kind of wonky now due to lack of practice. I was still auto-piloting a lot of stuff that had become almost second nature to me a few months ago. D Garu attempts are the biggest offenders. There were 1 or 2 instances in this video where I didn't have the meter to go for 2AB > SB Garu, though.

Was 4:51 a grab mash or missed input or something? Seemed pretty odd to me.

That was me momentarily thinking I was playing BBCP. It happened a few times in this video, actually. When I wasn't trying to hop out of Chie Oki, I was attempting to jump and/or barrier (which is the reason I got hit by more anti-air 5Cs than I would have liked). I really had been playing primarily BBCP, and I still do that now. I do plan to play P4A more regularly now at least, haha.

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You'd have to explain this one to me, as I have no idea what you mean by this.

During one of the matches, Colpe dropped (I think) his combo and you air teched. Immediately after tech, you did garu, and he DP'd you. I assume you already know how bad garu can be in a neutral situation though.

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During one of the matches, Colpe dropped (I think) his combo and you air teched. Immediately after tech, you did garu, and he DP'd you. I assume you already know how bad garu can be in a neutral situation though.

Oh, that was me having a brain fart. I tried to anticipate the 2B anti-air by preemptively using D Garu, but I double jumped on accident before I input it. It was a bad idea, anyways.

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Hello,

I just started and wanted to main Elizabeth. I'm going to try and post a video a day with a general outline with where I'm at. I'm very new though and I know that I have a LOT to learn. I know that I'm nowhere near some of the levels that everybody else is at, but I hope to someday get there.

Here's a link to the playlist that only has one video at the moment.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzANan6LRTSF2asb7

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Hi! Welcome to the Liz forums. While I (and I'm sure the other users, too) would like to help you out, it seems that the link you posted is invalid. The message "the playlist does not exist" shows up. Perhaps you can just link the video instead?

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That's weird. Don't know why the link changed, but it apparently did for some odd reason. Here's the updated link then.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzANan6LRTSF2asb7LLG3ImUlrBdjGaH7

Just to keep in mind though that whenever I play: if there's ever a chance that I could win, I'll somehow screw it up, even with easier opponents. It might be nerves or something, I'm not sure. I don't know if any critique would be Elizabeth specific and just might be more broad.

As of right now, I can't pull of complex combos or anything, though I am aware of how most of her combos turn out and what to use to do so, but I can only use very simple combos while trying to not use auto combo as much as possible.

On a side note: at 17:54 when the round starts, oOoLucky7oOo bursts, countering me, and immediately gains 100 meter with Elizabeth. I haven't heard of this before, can Elizabeth actually gain full meter when countering the opponent?

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What happened at 17:54 is just the property of a gold burst. Gold bursters give the burster 100% meter if it hits. It's not Liz specific.

My thoughts (in general):

You play a really odd neutral game. You also press a bunch of buttons, but I'm assuming that's because you're new to the game as a whole. You should familiarize yourself with each normal/special, and see where/how they can be used in the neutral game. For example, the Akihiko player did j.B a bunch of times, and you never used 2B against this. Jump ins are free to 2B (and Elizabeth's is amazing; one of the best in the game IMO), but you did 2A/5B/etc instead. The way you use specials kinda falls in the same vein. I believe a lot of the choices that you make in these matches are a result of not knowing what other characters are capable of, as well. The one thing that stands out to me the most is your use of 5A/j.A though. You use them a lot, and it seems kinda random to me. Like you'll be full screen and hit 5A, and then get punished for it (like the Liz doing 5D on your wake up after you did 5A). Your burst usage is kinda questionable too, but I can chalk this up to unfamiliarity with the game as well. A general rule of thumb: if you're low on life and you feel the need to burst, burst as soon as you get 35% HP. This way you can be in awakening when you return to the neutral game. Elizabeth can use 236236A to force awakening though, so this isn't really an issue for her if she has 50%~ HP.

Try to vary your pressure/mix-up game. When you fought the first Naoto, you kept going for 5C > 5D reset. While 5D reset is fine, doing the same thing over and over again isn't good. Especially with 5D being really reactable. What strikes me more so was that you got DP'd almost 100% of the time, and you still did it. It also seems like a lot of your pressure is just 2A. There're really good pressure strings/mix ups like 5A > 5A x N or stuff > 2B omc > j.A/2A/grab. You can do stuff with delay 5C/5D/2D etc as well. Again, this comes down to familiarizing yourself with what Elizabeth has and can do.

You should also take time out and learn the BnBs, at least. What's also important is learning how the moves go together so that you're able to hitconfirm from weird situations (like 5C air hit, grounded 2B CH, etc). A lot of your combos just amounted to 2A > 2A > 5B/5C or auto combo. Auto combos are fine IMO, and 5AA/5AA can even be used as hitconfirm tools. You probably could've won a bunch of those matches if you just had combos down.

So, in short: Familiarize yourself with Elizabeth's buttons, and the game's system in general. Try not to press as many "random" buttons and learn basic combos. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

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Okay, thank you for the advice! Can you tell the the best way to improve based on your own experience? Like what you usually do to improve on something. Going into training mode to practice combos is the most obvious one like you advised at the end, but with everything else you said, how I'm basically unfamiliar with the game, would playing against the computer be a good way to familiarize myself with the other characters' general game plan or should I only stick to online games?

Thank you

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I would say play other people, online or otherwise. Playing against real people is the best option. The CPU has patterns and exploitable behavior; you would probably end up developing bad habits that way. You can also watch Elizabeth match videos. I played a bunch of people offline before I got decent at this game.

Alternatively, you can always learn the basics with other characters to get an idea of, or feel for what they do.

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You can't upload replays from the game. Do you at least own a cellphone with a camera or something? You could use that.

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I watched the two Mitsuru videos, the Naoto video, and one of the SLab videos. Here's some general advice:

 

Against Mitsuru, you have to be careful about how you use jB. Her 2AB low profiles jB, and you'll eat a lot of damage if you end up in the corner. 

 

Don't mash grab (or 2B for that matter). I kinda have this habit too, and you'll soon learn that it's a habit with a painful cost. Against Mitsuru, your grab got baited with 4B; if you were playing a better Mitsuru, you would've eaten like 5-6k in that situation.

 

Thanatos pressure is alright, but you shouldn't always throw Persona buttons around. Liz has decent stagger pressure with 5A. Instead of just doing "mixups" with 5D/2C, you can opt for something like 5A>2B OMC>jA/2A too. You don't have to exclusively rely on the Persona.

 

Speaking of throwing around Persona buttons, you have to be careful about using Thanatos to pressure Naoto. She can freely BD if you do 5C>anything. You can kinda bait BD with 5C>OMC or 5C>delay whatever.

 

Lastly, I would recommend that you work on your combos/hit confirms. I don't think you completed a single non FC 5D combo.

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Thanks for the response!

Do you have any tips for the 5D combo? I know it's 5D > j.B > j.A > 2C > 2A then Thanatos stuff. And I can do it somewhat consistently in training mode but I can rarely do it on netplay. Is there like...Elizabeth has to be higher than the opponent when doing the combo or is it just timing? 

 

Also I know this probably has to do with frames and stuff, but against any enemy, usually when I try to charge in and use 5A, they are able to counter me and use one of their other normals and start a combo. It happens a lot but it's mostly with characters like Yu and Mitsuru (ESPECIALLY her .-.). It's hard for me to do a "rushdown" thing...which I'm sure just requires practice but idk if you have any tips about that.

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5D can be kinda tricky depending on where the opponent is. If they're close, you should just drop straight up and go into jB>jA>jC>etc. If they're fullscreen, you should dash a little, and then jump forward before going into jB & such. The only difference with this formula lies with Yosuke; if he's fullscreen, you just have to jump straight up and do jB when he comes close to you. No running at all.

 

I don't really mean just run up and 5A people. Like, for example, if you tag the opponent with jB and they block it, you can go into like jB>5AxN>grab/whatever. It doesn't work on all characters (Liz 5A is 7F startup, so you have to keep that in mind), but some characters have a hard time fighting back against it. Here's an example.

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Thanks again for the response, I really do appreciate them :)

 

Last question I think for a while, but I've been wondering how I should get closer to the enemy. I know I shouldn't randomly charge in and use 5A but I can't seem to get in that close with Elizabeth without using IAD > j.B, or just throwing out random j.Bs, and I know that's dangerous because more skilled players always anti-air me. I've been watching some other match videos but I can't really figure it out because it seems they're just patient and lets the enemy come to them. Which I guess that's something I could do, but idk. 

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Neutral game, at least to me, is kinda hard to describe. I'll try my best though.

 

At the start of the round, many Elizabeth players like to use jB. Whether it's neutral jump or IAD back, jB isn't necessarily a bad way to start a round because of how amazing it is. If you tag the opponent with it, you practically get to pressure them for free since jB will vacuum them into 5A range. Generally, when the game switches to mid-range/long-range, you want to control space or manipulate your opponent's position. jB is still good here, but you can pair it with tools like air turn jD to grab your opponents out of the air. Furthermore, Elizabeth's projectile specials can keep the opponent away or let you get real estate. For example, if you knocked the opponent down with jC from fullscreen, you could opt to use 214C to cover your dash to the other side of the screen where the opponent is. If the opponent is staying away from you, perhaps you would like to use 214D to bring them closer. 5C is an okay-ish neutral tool as well, but I wouldn't exactly recommend using it a lot. It's slow and rollable; you can pay for it from certain distances. 2AB isn't that bad either as it can deal with some air approaches (like Aigis jC) and it covers a decent amount of space on the ground.

 

Neutral game also differs from matchup to matchup, and you can't fight one character the same you would fight another. For example, you might like to do 214C vs Akihiko fullscreen since he can't really answer back, but you would be more wary to use this tool vs Naoto since she has fullscreen gunshots (which are faster than agi). 

 

I'm not sure if I really addressed your concern properly, so if something is unclear, just feel free to ask. Some of the best advice I can give you is to keep watching high level Elizabeth matches (Damosu/Okusan (in P4U only)) and try to understand why they make the decisions that they do when they're trying to get in. 

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