[P4A] Elizabeth Self Improvement and Critique Thread

[Eshi]

I noticed that you dropped neutral jump > jB > jA > jC > 2A > 5B sometimes because 5B whiffed. Buffering microdash into the 2A will get rid of the problem.

3:27 nitpick. If the opponent gets hit by raw Maragidyne fatal, optimal confirm is jB > garu or jA > jB > garu loops. Same for 5D fatal at 3:45.

That hit confirm on CH C Garu was pretty cool.

[Elochai]

Thanks, Eshi. I only went for those combos because I wasn't confident in getting Kanji in garu loops.

@OmeX: I just tried Kanji's 214C against Liz 2B. It's really odd, but sometimes it'll CH and sometimes 2B beats it free. I suppose it just depends on when 2B comes out. You're most likely right that 2B beats grab if you read it, but if you react to it, which I probably did, then grab will win.

[Kobayashi]

You're lucky that Kanji allowed you to hit him with 5D a million times. Otherwise, your match would not have been as close as it was. Imagine how you would perform against a Kanji that knows Elizabeth has no real mixup.

[susano]

So here's another video of my gameplay. Yes, I must grind out Garu combos. I am starting to get a better understanding of how they work. Also, I know I made mistakes in this one. I now see why full screen projectiles with Liz is a bad idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r61zf3iTAZY

Went 9-10 with a friend.

[godofwar7]

0:55 Couldve added in 5B Sweep D.Garu 2A for extra damage.

1:10 Don't roll when if you're not going to actually cross your opponent. Heck, don't roll if they're at neutral.

1:17 Most of the cast can punish raw SB Agi, not just akihiko.

1:23 Nice ghastly wail. It's very pretty good against akihiko pressure.

1:55 What was that? Terrible combo.

2:30 Could of extended the combo. 5B into w/e.

2:35 Rapid cancel into 5D is good. should of done that. Also don't think rapid canceling 2C into 2C is that good when you've got them trapped in the corner.

[susano]

0:55 Couldve added in 5B Sweep D.Garu 2A for extra damage.

1:10 Don't roll when if you're not going to actually cross your opponent. Heck, don't roll if they're at neutral.

1:17 Most of the cast can punish raw SB Agi, not just akihiko.

1:23 Nice ghastly wail. It's very pretty good against akihiko pressure.

1:55 What was that? Terrible combo.

2:30 Could of extended the combo. 5B into w/e.

2:35 Rapid cancel into 5D is good. should of done that. Also don't think rapid canceling 2C into 2C is that good when you've got them trapped in the corner.

0:55- Yea, I have to commit to that.

1:10- I have got to stop using that roll like that. Thinking too much in terms of Capcom vs. SNK 2. ._.

1:17- Yeah, I discovered that too on my quest to get experience.

1:23- Yeah, thanks.

1:55- God, I know. I started learning better combos in the lab last night. Was trying to be fancy.

2:30- Oh, I see.

2:53- Noted. Guess I have to work on that. That was pretty silly.

[cash money]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1SFxO2ZuQM

I think I play better after about 10 minute mark. Any advice appreciated!

[Elochai]

Okay, I didn't watch the last match, so I cannot speak upon that, but:

• Confirms - Confirm Garudyne pokes into 2A. It starts up faster than 5A, and I also believe it works due to the height at which Garu puts the opponent after the last hit, granted that they plopped up. I'm not sure if this is a type of confirm, but you should confirm your 214C oki into 50/50 mixup. A lot of times you had done 2C > 214C, and you just waited for the flames to go away. If your opponent is blocking for 100 frames, you may as well make them eat a guessing game.
  
  
• Combos - Kinda the same as the above I guess, but you shouldn't do SB Garu > D Garu > 2A > stuff. This route is too prorated and you can't get a third Garu in this route. Also, after CH throw mid-screen, you do not have to OMC to followup. I wouldn't bother with OMC unless it's FC throw. You can do like 66 5C (2) > j.C, or 5C (2) > 214A route if you have really good execution. Furthermore, I noticed that you had done AOA and did a really basic combo. AOA route is j.A > 236CD > (fall) > 236D > 2A > 5B > 5C (2) > 2C > whatever. Last thing I combos since I feel as if I'm going on (lol), if you want to go for 214C oki, make sure the combo you're doing isn't too prorated. 214C oki is best used after hard knockdown so the opponent doesn't just SJ away.
  
  
• Gimmicky stuff - While it worked on this Chie, you shouldn't always go for j.D resets. After sometime, people just don't tech. Perhaps you conditioned this Chie to always get hit by it - I'm not too sure, but just keep that in mind. 5C in neutral is really, really bad as well. You could have gotten blown up for it any time.
  
  
• Your use of air grabs/5A stagger was phenomenal. Shuffle Time combo was hype as well. Looks like you somewhat lost your ability to read minds though lol.
  

[TD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI2J_naPNqQ

old match, critique if you'd like

[susano]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xI2J_naPNqQ

old match, critique if you'd like

Its not that bad. You should see my lulz-worthy videos instead. :3

And holy smokes, that combo in round 1. :o

[cash money]

Okay, I didn't watch the last match, so I cannot speak upon that, but:

• Confirms - Confirm Garudyne pokes into 2A. It starts up faster than 5A, and I also believe it works due to the height at which Garu puts the opponent after the last hit, granted that they plopped up. I'm not sure if this is a type of confirm, but you should confirm your 214C oki into 50/50 mixup. A lot of times you had done 2C > 214C, and you just waited for the flames to go away. If your opponent is blocking for 100 frames, you may as well make them eat a guessing game.
  
  
• Combos - Kinda the same as the above I guess, but you shouldn't do SB Garu > D Garu > 2A > stuff. This route is too prorated and you can't get a third Garu in this route. Also, after CH throw mid-screen, you do not have to OMC to followup. I wouldn't bother with OMC unless it's FC throw. You can do like 66 5C (2) > j.C, or 5C (2) > 214A route if you have really good execution. Furthermore, I noticed that you had done AOA and did a really basic combo. AOA route is j.A > 236CD > (fall) > 236D > 2A > 5B > 5C (2) > 2C > whatever. Last thing I combos since I feel as if I'm going on (lol), if you want to go for 214C oki, make sure the combo you're doing isn't too prorated. 214C oki is best used after hard knockdown so the opponent doesn't just SJ away.
  
  
• Gimmicky stuff - While it worked on this Chie, you shouldn't always go for j.D resets. After sometime, people just don't tech. Perhaps you conditioned this Chie to always get hit by it - I'm not too sure, but just keep that in mind. 5C in neutral is really, really bad as well. You could have gotten blown up for it any time.
  
  
• Your use of air grabs/5A stagger was phenomenal. Shuffle Time combo was hype as well. Looks like you somewhat lost your ability to read minds though lol.
  

Yeah, trying to get a third garu on chie is not worth it anyways so im not worried about that. How bad is the proration on sb garu>d.garu>2a>stuff? It does good damage already and doesn't drop unless I just mess up.

Why do you not OMC CH throws? It corner carries really well and does good damage. The other combos you mentioned off Ch throws don't sound useful, what are the positives you get from them?

I think for j.d resets, i try to go into them in different ways so they are harder to anticipate. But yeah if someone is just not teching then i'll stop of course. Resets are still useful though.

Lol and yeah I don't find much use in burst baiting anymore since it puts the game in neutral if they don't burst which is usually pretty terrible against characters like Chie.

Appreciate the advice.

[Elochai]

Yeah, the damage is practically the same. I only mentioned how badly it prorates because it disallows a third garu. If you don't want to do sb > d garu x2, then don't worry about it.

I don't like OMC throw combos because you're getting the same situation if you do not OMC. While I never thought about it in terms of corner carry, I always assumed the purpose of CH throw combo was to cause a knockdown. OMC CH throw combo ends in j.C, and so do the non-OMC combos. You end up doing meaty 5C/5D either way, I would just not waste the meter on it unless I wanted the damage.

[Elochai]

If no one minds Twitch, 52:50 - 57:35 http://www.twitch.tv/radioinfluencedotcom/b/408155187

First match of this link, as well. http://www.twitch.tv/radioinfluencedotcom/b/408188739 (lol @ fight stick being on LS this game)

[Dazardz]

This thread is still active right?

Only one video for now, I've been spending my time learning Mitsuru. And I apologize for the horrible camera...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri3mXdnt2PQ&feature=youtu.be

[Elochai]

Just a brief overlook 'cause I gotta go out soon (probably will edit this later):

Combos are something you need to work on. For example, you got 5D on FC, and you let it go. The most basic 5D FC (5B > 2AB > 236D > xx) combo is around 3.5k iirc. Even before you got the 5D FC, you dropped that 2C combo. Ideally, I would've done 214D after or 214B again and then j.C for knockdown. Seems like you're not familiar with the combo routes either, since I notice you're doing 5C > 2C on a grounded opponent without FC. Without being long winded, I just suggest that you practice or get familiar with how you can convert into full combos.

2AB & 2B work well against Aigis btw. I'm also partial to using j.D/air grab when they Orgia dash a decent distance from the ground. 236A calls out her 2B cleanly (from full screen).

[Dazardz]

Combos are something you need to work on. For example, you got 5D on FC, and you let it go.

I used it in another match I had with him before, I thought he'd block it, and I'd win the throw. Part of a gimmick I accidently found. And when I actually got him wiyj the throw and didn't do 2B > j.B > 236D, part of my execution mistakes that I need to work on.

Seems like you're not familiar with the combo routes either, since I notice you're doing 5C > 2C on a grounded opponent without FC.

No seriously, my mistake, I literally usually do 5C > j.C Then dash j.B and do stuff from there. But I didn't use it anywhere else in the match, so I understand why you thought that.

Without being long winded, I just suggest that you practice or get familiar with how you can convert into full combos.

Okay then.

As long as I'm not using the Magarudyne loop, I suck with that thing unless it's against Yu, Mitsuru or those characters you can just hold [2] against.

Edit:

I'm horrible with jokes too, so I hope you understand that I'm still practicing that loop

Another Edit:

I'll try to get some more matches up for you guys to take a look at when I get the time.

[Elochai]

Btw, I meant to say 2B/2AB as anti-airs, but I'm sure you knew what I meant. I was in a rush ;;. Even if you're not too comfortable with 236D loop, you can always do like xx > 2AB > 236CD ([9]) > (236D [2]) > 5B/5A. The garu elevator isn't character specific, so it's pretty good for tacking on damage against characters who you struggle to 236D loop.

[Dazardz]

Actually, these are going to be the last I upload in a long time. Went back and did some improvement by looking at the gimmicks, some high level play etc. and then I had some matches against Pssych.

1 win and 1 loss. Though through out the whole set we actually had, he had about 22 wins and I only had 11.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAaEFgAZbuw

[Elochai]

I would say that it's a bit hard/weird to play the neutral game against Yosuke. The various angles and stuff he has makes it hard for Liz to use 2B and the like.

I think your movement against Yosuke for the most part was good, and knowing how to move in this MU is a major thing IMO. Be careful to not throw maziodyne when Yosuke has 25 meter btw, since he'll just EX DS (like what happened @ 0:57; EX DS wins every time).

When you got Pssych with 5D at around 1:55, you could've killed him btw. You had 100 meter after the second 236D, so you should've done 236D [3] to switch sides, and then used 214214C to finish him. Giving Yosuke a second chance can be risky (yo I didn't know that j.C beats Yosuke's j.2C lol).

Another thing about combos btw: At 5:39, if you chose to go into 5B > 2AB > 236CD > (2AB > 236D >) 5B > stuff > mind charge, you could've ended up with roughly 108 meter and got the kill. I can understand the intimidation of doing garu loops online, but 236CD can just be [2] & it still works.

I think you did better than your last showing though. Try not to DP as much either. Of course, all of this should be taken with a grain of salt ~

[Dazardz]

This is not me being critique'd this time, I am playing though. My friend is learning Elizabeth, but he's pretty much learning the game itself. I taught him some Liz combos and gameplan and stuff, but I don't think I did well. I asked him if I could put up a video of him playing here, to be critique'd.

I tried to do some stupid things with Akihiko, to show you what he would do in certain situations, like punishing and etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0LbznAhcOU

Thank you. I'm guessing Elochai is the only one on this thread though....

[Elochai]

I'm guessing Elochai is the only one on this thread though....

I won't let the dream die .

Just some general things that I noticed:

-5B in neutral. I think this is a bad idea. This move is garbage on whiff (-20f or thereabout), and you'll most likely get punished for it. Neutral in general could use work too, like IAD backwards j.B to keep Aki away, and better use of Zio. Maragidyne use wasn't that bad, but Liz should be mindful that Aki (and all of the cast, depending on spacing) can just punish it when used in neutral.

-This kinda ties into point 1 I guess, but Liz's pressure wasn't so good. Too much 5D without "proper" conditioning, at least for my tastes. I like 5A x N is good against Akihiko since he doesn't really have buttons to deal with it. That means that Aki will probably jump, and then you catch him with 5AA into whatever you want. No "strong" Thanatos pressure either (quotes because it's not really a thing ). There's no fear if you're not going to use 2C imo, or even 5C delay 214A.

-Combos, or the lack thereof. Most of what was done here was autocombo, which is fine, but if you hit 5A, you can easily confirm it into 4k w/ 25 meter. I suppose hitconfirming is also important to learn, since stray Zio/Maragi can go into combos as well.

[Dazardz]

I won't let the dream die .

Just some general things that I noticed:

-5B in neutral. I think this is a bad idea. This move is garbage on whiff (-20f or thereabout), and you'll most likely get punished for it. Neutral in general could use work too, like IAD backwards j.B to keep Aki away, and better use of Zio. Maragidyne use wasn't that bad, but Liz should be mindful that Aki (and all of the cast, depending on spacing) can just punish it when used in neutral.

-This kinda ties into point 1 I guess, but Liz's pressure wasn't so good. Too much 5D without "proper" conditioning, at least for my tastes. I like 5A x N is good against Akihiko since he doesn't really have buttons to deal with it. That means that Aki will probably jump, and then you catch him with 5AA into whatever you want. No "strong" Thanatos pressure either (quotes because it's not really a thing ). There's no fear if you're not going to use 2C imo, or even 5C delay 214A.

-Combos, or the lack thereof. Most of what was done here was autocombo, which is fine, but if you hit 5A, you can easily confirm it into 4k w/ 25 meter. I suppose hitconfirming is also important to learn, since stray Zio/Maragi can go into combos as well.

Thank you, master Elochai

I find it hard to help people that have just began learning the game, because I don't even remember how I learned then. I'll send him the link to this page of the thread.

Oh and, this is gonna be a daily job for you. I have a couple of videos that I wanted to show you, because as of now, I constantly use resets. Of course if the opponent stops teching, I'll stop. But in training mode I just feel like I'm learning resets instead of other things, execution is the only other thing I could think of doing in training mode. I'm stuck, what's next after resets?

Be prepared....

[Elochai]

Yellow beat combo extensions? Like if you don't auto-pilot resets, and you realize that the opponent didn't tech, then find a way to (shortly) extend the combo.

[Elochai]

Ayudarme.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecnk5eIUW3A

[Speakeasy]

As a novice, my input isn't helpful, so I'll avoid accidentally giving the wrong advice. Up to now, I've tried to learn by feeling out the characters/games I play for myself except for things like matchup tips. Sorry I can't be helpful.

On that note, here's a video of mine from a couple weeks ago. I have some more recent replays saved that I'm going to throw up eventually, but I've been too lazy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDy2hvS4EBg

Some things I noticed:

-If the enemy blocks and freezes up, I like to walk them across the screen with Thanatos and grab them. Playing online more has cured me of this, since that's a good way to break a card. But I still do it occasionally.

-I did use the AOA (bad idea already) but I didn't even knock him in the air for AOA>j.B>j.C or AOA>j.A>j.B>236C when I did. Silly me. I've learned to only use Elizabeth's AOA when I'm absolutely sure I won't be punished for it, but... could use some pointers.

-I loooove me some Shuffle Time.

-I don't grab very often. Not sure how useful it really is, but... I just don't do it. I don't know very many combos and haven't yet found a way to combo off the grab because I never use it in the first place.