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Kiba

[P4A] Elizabeth vs Aigis

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Discuss the Valkenhayn matchup here!!!

Punishes:

Anti-airing:

Zoning:

Their game plan:

Strategy:

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Played a bit against a good Aigis today and I have to say this matchup can be pretty rough. Her offense and pressure accentuate Elizabeth's lack of defensive options and she can end the match in 2 hits no problem.

Her 2B is fucking godlike and you can't challenge that move with anything other than Garudyne from the air. If you can call out a 2B with Garudyne and land the full 6k combo the Aigis will be scared to just throw out 2B all day.

5C is strong against her since her air movement is usually so low with orgia forward/backward dash however if it is mistimed you can eat a j.B to the face.

Liz 5B got me killed A LOT try not to use it too often.

Dont throw SB.Agi ever if she has meter as you will eat a counterhit super everytime

Also her j.C is pretty good and if she confirms it into megido you are losing a TON of life. You have to give a lot of respect to it.

I feel like I have covered a lot of the major points of the matchup. Anyone else know of any tips/tricks/things to avoid against her? I feel like this matchup isn't too bad when it is all said and done.

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IABD j.b also beats 2b reliably and puts some more distance between you two.

zio is okay in this matchup. she has a few things that can be interrupted by zio. it won't keep her out long, but it will punish any attempt for aigis to fortify her offence/defence.

as you mentioned aigis shield super > liz fullscreen. nothing she has offensively beats it, but its very punishable on block.

5a/2a/2b/normal into zio to beat athena shield (5d). after 5a and 2b, jump. after 2a, block, roll, whatever you want. any normal into zio punishes aigis who think its safe to get in via orgia dash, or to shoot bullets. it puts her fullscreen with 1 less persona life and possibly less bullets.

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IABD j.b also beats 2b reliably and puts some more distance between you two.

zio is okay in this matchup. she has a few things that can be interrupted by zio. it won't keep her out long, but it will punish any attempt for aigis to fortify her offence/defence.

as you mentioned aigis shield super > liz fullscreen. nothing she has offensively beats it, but its very punishable on block.

5a/2a/2b/normal into zio to beat athena shield (5d). after 5a and 2b, jump. after 2a, block, roll, whatever you want. any normal into zio punishes aigis who think its safe to get in via orgia dash, or to shoot bullets. it puts her fullscreen with 1 less persona life and possibly less bullets.

Shield super punishes A zio attempts on block at fullscreen, so NEVER use A Zio if she has 50 meter. It also beats SB.Agi so..... full screen you're just gonna have to respect her super. =/

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i've kinda grown used to everyone being able to punish liz fullscreen with heat (most of the cast can with 50/25 heat and some with none). it really just comes down to how good your yomi is, and how good you can test the foe's reactions. as with most matchups you're just going to have to turtle your ass off your body. fortunately liz is fairly decent in the punish department, and aigis definitely is not one of those characters who functions well without her persona.

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j.D is pretty godlike if you're trying to catch Aigis' orgia dash, since it makes her airborne.

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Ah. I love these matchups with Aigis. ; D

Aigis without Orgia mode:

2B seems to be a practical move they use a LOT since it is quite effective. Though it's easy to punish it if you use Maziodyne fast enough. Though if you're too slow on reaction. A bullet will hit Thanatos and then probably you. Watch out if Aigis throws Athena to counterattack since you probably will still be recovering if you use maziodyne once Athena starts charging. Don't think you're safe once Athena is done waiting for an attack though because Aigis can add a 2C or 5C which will hit you if Athena's close enough.

Aigis doesn't use her gattling gun from what I see since it's usually too slow if they try the B version. They'll usually just spit it out of nowhere when the both of you are down to your last bit of health as a desperation weapon. And somehow that ends up with me in a K.O. since I usually don't expect it. : P

Aigis with Orgia Mode:

Now THIS where the fun begins. Normal Aigis players know the whole Megido fire combo chain that they do which takes a HUGE chunk outta Elizabeth's health (from like 1/8th to half of Elizabeth's health). What's even worse is her really hard cross-up, where when dashing she'll do j.b which is an overhead and just stays out long enough to hit you and lead to a good half of Liz's health being gone. Though when she lands on the ground she'll usually try sweeping and dashing again for another j.B (Her midair kick). Practice trying to block her sweep+J.B. cross-up since doing so might give you a chance at surviving.

Aigis won't use the Pandora Missiles much since you can just instantly punish that with a Maziodyne. You can even use the B or SB version since you'll have enough time. Though if you SOMEHOW don't punish it and the missiles end up hitting you while on the ground. Aigis will probably dash up and J.B. you too. Again that's IF you don't punish her for some reason...

Breaking Aigis's persona can range from being an offense breaker to not really changing much depending on what mode Aigis is on since she NEEDS Athena in order to use Megido Fire which is what makes up her bread and butter combos that take out a lot of your health. Though if she's not in Orgia mode then that just means she can't use an inferior counterattack. It's still best to try to break Athena though that doesn't mean you should leave yourself open to do so like you would against another Elizabeth.

That's about all I can think up of... I'll add more when I find some more. I sadly don't fight Aigis that much as Elizabeth. I seem to pair up with more when I'm Naoto for some reason...

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Ah. I love these matchups with Aigis. ; D

Aigis without Orgia mode:

2B seems to be a practical move they use a LOT since it is quite effective. Though it's easy to punish it if you use Maziodyne fast enough. Though if you're too slow on reaction. A bullet will hit Thanatos and then probably you. Watch out if Aigis throws Athena to counterattack since you probably will still be recovering if you use maziodyne once Athena starts charging. Don't think you're safe once Athena is done waiting for an attack though because Aigis can add a 2C or 5C which will hit you if Athena's close enough.

Aigis doesn't use her gattling gun from what I see since it's usually too slow if they try the B version. They'll usually just spit it out of nowhere when the both of you are down to your last bit of health as a desperation weapon. And somehow that ends up with me in a K.O. since I usually don't expect it. : P

Aigis with Orgia Mode:

Now THIS where the fun begins. Normal Aigis players know the whole Megido fire combo chain that they do which takes a HUGE chunk outta Elizabeth's health (from like 1/8th to half of Elizabeth's health). What's even worse is her really hard cross-up, where when dashing she'll do j.b which is an overhead and just stays out long enough to hit you and lead to a good half of Liz's health being gone. Though when she lands on the ground she'll usually try sweeping and dashing again for another j.B (Her midair kick). Practice trying to block her sweep+J.B. cross-up since doing so might give you a chance at surviving.

Aigis won't use the Pandora Missiles much since you can just instantly punish that with a Maziodyne. You can even use the B or SB version since you'll have enough time. Though if you SOMEHOW don't punish it and the missiles end up hitting you while on the ground. Aigis will probably dash up and J.B. you too. Again that's IF you don't punish her for some reason...

Breaking Aigis's persona can range from being an offense breaker to not really changing much depending on what mode Aigis is on since she NEEDS Athena in order to use Megido Fire which is what makes up her bread and butter combos that take out a lot of your health. Though if she's not in Orgia mode then that just means she can't use an inferior counterattack. It's still best to try to break Athena though that doesn't mean you should leave yourself open to do so like you would against another Elizabeth.

That's about all I can think up of... I'll add more when I find some more. I sadly don't fight Aigis that much as Elizabeth. I seem to pair up with more when I'm Naoto for some reason...

Nice writeup. The thing that frustrates me about Aigis is her speed. There's just something about her that just aggravates me. There's characters I like but hate fighting against them.

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I'm going to try and tackle this to the best of my ability. I've played quite a few decent and really good Aigis players online and off, so I'll try to point out some of the issues with what you wrote.

Aigis without Orgia mode:

2B seems to be a practical move they use a LOT since it is quite effective. Though it's easy to punish it if you use Maziodyne fast enough. Though if you're too slow on reaction. A bullet will hit Thanatos and then probably you.

You should be trying to roll and punish 2B on reaction to its use. It's something that takes a while to get used to, as the better Aigis players know that her 2B is easily roll punishable. Maziodyne only really works at fullscreen, as any other place where you might use it would be close enough for you to lose a persona card AND get punished, or for you to roll and punish Aigis for being silly. Decent Aigis players will opt to use 2B either at fullscreen or when you're airborne.

Aigis doesn't use her gattling gun from what I see since it's usually too slow if they try the B version. They'll usually just spit it out of nowhere when the both of you are down to your last bit of health as a desperation weapon. And somehow that ends up with me in a K.O. since I usually don't expect it. : P

Using her 236 A/B is usually to force Liz to be persona broken. It's slightly faster than Aigis's 2B, though it doesn't cover the entire screen. It's obvious that Maziodyne beets it clean, but Liz doesn't get anything off of Maziodyne unless it's the SB version. This allows Aigis to do this every once in a while if Liz's pressure from fullscreen with Thanatos is weak, though she has no need for this when Thanatos is close by. All characters can just 5A/2A Thanatos for silly pressure strings.

Aigis with Orgia Mode:

Now THIS where the fun begins. Normal Aigis players know the whole Megido fire combo chain that they do which takes a HUGE chunk outta Elizabeth's health (from like 1/8th to half of Elizabeth's health). What's even worse is her really hard cross-up, where when dashing she'll do j.b which is an overhead and just stays out long enough to hit you and lead to a good half of Liz's health being gone. Though when she lands on the ground she'll usually try sweeping and dashing again for another j.B (Her midair kick). Practice trying to block her sweep+J.B. cross-up since doing so might give you a chance at surviving.

First I'll start by saying that most netplayers that use Aigis don't know full Megido fire combos (just the basic ones), but that's a minor detail :P

The first problem with what you typed here is that...j.B isn't a cross-up in the situation you brought up. I think what you're looking for is that 2A+B and j.B are forcing a high-low mixup. My 2nd problem with this is the fact that all you mentioned for her pressure game is j.B and sweep. There are a lot of things that Aigis can do besides these two average high/low tools (though they're a lot more effective online). I say average b/c most online Aigis players autopilot their high/low strings with j.B and sweep, missing out on a lot of Aigis's other options and allowing players to predict their blockstrings without actually reacting to them.

Air turn j.2B is a serious annoyance, as it can disorient you rather easily and lead to some nice mixups. The better Aigis players will also fake highs with orgia dash and go into 2A. Grab is also a threat, as they can force you to try to tech a throw on a whim.

The biggest thing I'd want to point out are her real crossups. One of these will be off of air turn j.B, where the followup is orgia backdash > j.B or j.C. They can even go into another forward dash and cross you up for a second time. Aigis can also hold 7 or 9 during orgia dash to force a cross-up mid-dash. She can hit you with air turn j.C after this and immediately go into Megido for good damage and a knockdown without using SP meter.

The only suggestion that anyone can give for this is...to learn to block her pressure properly until she either deactivates or runs out of orgia meter (the latter is highly unlikely against a decent Aigis). The best thing you can do is to know just what Aigis is capable of during her orgia mode, which is the reason for my listing some of what she has available to her.

Breaking Aigis's persona can range from being an offense breaker to not really changing much depending on what mode Aigis is on since she NEEDS Athena in order to use Megido Fire which is what makes up her bread and butter combos that take out a lot of your health. Though if she's not in Orgia mode then that just means she can't use an inferior counterattack. It's still best to try to break Athena though that doesn't mean you should leave yourself open to do so like you would against another Elizabeth.

Though Aigis does need her persona in order to do the high-damage Megido combos, she still has a decent damage output person broken. Her biggest threat is her orgia mode, which she doesn't lose access to. She can still hit you with the majority of her mixups persona broken, and can just knock you down until her persona comes back. This is all while still doing somewhere from 1k to 2k (don't know the average amount) damage without her persona.

You had a pretty decent analysis for someone that hasn't fought many Aigis players yet. Try to be more aware of your opponents options as you play more, though.

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I'm going to try and tackle this to the best of my ability. I've played quite a few decent and really good Aigis players online and off, so I'll try to point out some of the issues with what you wrote.

You should be trying to roll and punish 2B on reaction to its use. It's something that takes a while to get used to, as the better Aigis players know that her 2B is easily roll punishable. Maziodyne only really works at fullscreen, as any other place where you might use it would be close enough for you to lose a persona card AND get punished, or for you to roll and punish Aigis for being silly. Decent Aigis players will opt to use 2B either at fullscreen or when you're airborne.

Using her 236 A/B is usually to force Liz to be persona broken. It's slightly faster than Aigis's 2B, though it doesn't cover the entire screen. It's obvious that Maziodyne beets it clean, but Liz doesn't get anything off of Maziodyne unless it's the SB version. This allows Aigis to do this every once in a while if Liz's pressure from fullscreen with Thanatos is weak, though she has no need for this when Thanatos is close by. All characters can just 5A/2A Thanatos for silly pressure strings.

First I'll start by saying that most netplayers that use Aigis don't know full Megido fire combos (just the basic ones), but that's a minor detail :P

The first problem with what you typed here is that...j.B isn't a cross-up in the situation you brought up. I think what you're looking for is that 2A+B and j.B are forcing a high-low mixup. My 2nd problem with this is the fact that all you mentioned for her pressure game is j.B and sweep. There are a lot of things that Aigis can do besides these two average high/low tools (though they're a lot more effective online). I say average b/c most online Aigis players autopilot their high/low strings with j.B and sweep, missing out on a lot of Aigis's other options and allowing players to predict their blockstrings without actually reacting to them.

Air turn j.2B is a serious annoyance, as it can disorient you rather easily and lead to some nice mixups. The better Aigis players will also fake highs with orgia dash and go into 2A. Grab is also a threat, as they can force you to try to tech a throw on a whim.

The biggest thing I'd want to point out are her real crossups. One of these will be off of air turn j.B, where the followup is orgia backdash > j.B or j.C. They can even go into another forward dash and cross you up for a second time. Aigis can also hold 7 or 9 during orgia dash to force a cross-up mid-dash. She can hit you with air turn j.C after this and immediately go into Megido for good damage and a knockdown without using SP meter.

The only suggestion that anyone can give for this is...to learn to block her pressure properly until she either deactivates or runs out of orgia meter (the latter is highly unlikely against a decent Aigis). The best thing you can do is to know just what Aigis is capable of during her orgia mode, which is the reason for my listing some of what she has available to her.

Though Aigis does need her persona in order to do the high-damage Megido combos, she still has a decent damage output person broken. Her biggest threat is her orgia mode, which she doesn't lose access to. She can still hit you with the majority of her mixups persona broken, and can just knock you down until her persona comes back. This is all while still doing somewhere from 1k to 2k (don't know the average amount) damage without her persona.

You had a pretty decent analysis for someone that hasn't fought many Aigis players yet. Try to be more aware of your opponents options as you play more, though.

For most Aigis players only knowing the basic megido fire combos... Like you said it's only minor since the basic one's still can pack quite the punch.

High-low mixup was what I was trying to say. Sorry. ^_^;; But yeah I only mentioned the sweep and j.B mixup since it's the most common pressure that Aigis players use. One's like the orgia backdash, I've only met one who used it and she was...adequate, I got tricked a few times but all I did was standing block from the other side since I already saw a video that was demonstrating/teaching that devilish trick. But overall I was really only stating what tactics a basic Aigis player would do. So again sorry for not stating the other options since just a few days ago was when I met a friend who played Aigis like crap-tastically good!

When I think about it Elizabeth's own 2B isn't a bad move to use in this fight since it could help with breaking Aigis's approach to you. Though be careful since the backdash trick or her j.236 A/B you mentioned can be used leaving you open as you recover from the attack. j.B is your only remotely helpful move to use while air to air against her (which you shouldn't be in such a situation most of the time).

And yeah learning how to block Aigis's mixups/cross-ups are your only options to winning this fight since Aigis has an easy time preaching through Thanatos and up your face with Orgia mode. Normal mode is when they either stall or try to annoy and maybe take a few Persona cards down. So your only option is to be able to block until it's deactivated, once that happens it's your turn to apply some tricks and moves that you need to use. I learned quite a bit from the Elizabeth tips and tricks thread (which was somewhere...). Learning combos is really good to know since the combo damage potential for Elizabeth is second to better then Aigis and Mitsuru so don't forget those. Training mode could help on learning how to play Aigis but it's overall much easier to befriend a basic to decent Aigis players since the AI don't act quite like one's online.

(Sorry I got a few new tidbits lately so I'm also typing as though giving tips)

I do kinda want to meet these other decent Aigis players you describe since I LOVE these matchups. One being to hear the remixed Heartful Cry which I find much better then the original (put your torches down I'm saying that in perspective of which version would be better in a game like P4A). And because I feel... smart for being able to put a match up against her. It doesn't feel hopeless like in many cases with....Mitsuru's.... and it isn't as easy to defeat Aigis as it is with Naoto or Akihiko.

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snip

You didn't do anything wrong, so you don't have to apologize, haha. Elochai mentioned it in an earlier post, but air turn j.D is a really good option in this match-up. Try to make them wary of eating a hefty combo for dashing in recklessly during orgia.

Also, Liz's 2B is actually pretty amazing in this MU. Its big hitbox can sometimes stuff cross-ups if you're fortunate enough. The only downside is that it's more of a hard read than a guaranteed anti-air in some situations, as Aigis can sometimes change her flight path so as to avoid 2B and punish Liz. Liz's j.B is also pretty good in this match-up, as long as you don't do it predictably and eat bullets for it (eating bullets will often allow Aigis to get right in your face, so use everything at your disposal wisely).

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Tiny little things that may not have been said...

Fullscreen:

I may be doing everything wrong, but I tend to not bother attacking Aigis from fullscreen unless punishing something. I just let Liz's meter build up until she can do some dirty stuff. Although we have to watch out for her Wolf Gau- I mean Orgia because if she is already in it, before you can react Valkenha- I mean Aigis is doing her crazy mixups and cross ups.

Close Range:

I would never attack if she is in Orgia Mode, besides that I'm going to break it down into sections;

Airborne Aigis - Ground Liz:

I use to think that 2B was the answer, but does her j.C beat that? Seems to beat mine, because it's range is insane, so I'd be careful and watch out for that. If she hits you then prepare to face Orgia Mode.

Airbone Liz - Ground Aigis:

I usually just space myself out with j.B because her Furious Action doesn't look to strong to me.

Ground Aigis - Ground Liz: I would throw out 5C, but her 2C still punishes that, so it's the rolling phase and everything. If your pressuring her at the time, I wouldn't really use 5C > 2C or 5C > 5D, I'd just be doing something like 5A > 5AA > 5B > 5D or possibly > 5A > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 2D. Unless you want to try cross up Aigis though. 5B > 5D loses to 2C mashing though, so I wouldn't do it when Aigis is almost dead. If you have meter, then I usually become a free person, because I'd do something like 5C > 2C > OMC > 5C and for people that have seen that before it doesn't really work. So maybe 5C > 2C > OMC > 5D. Assuming they jumped after 2C or not, it could still work. If she is pressuring us, I don't have anything to say because the only times I can remember being pressured is during Orgia.

Punishing Her Furious Action:

I think Magarudyne goes through her Furious Action, which is insane, may have to test it but whatever. Other than that it's the classic baiting ways. And then Aigis is airborne after so I'd usually do 66 > 5C > 2C and from there on, does anybody do other things?

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Tiny little things that may not have been said...

Fullscreen:

I may be doing everything wrong, but I tend to not bother attacking Aigis from fullscreen unless punishing something. I just let Liz's meter build up until she can do some dirty stuff. Although we have to watch out for her Wolf Gau- I mean Orgia because if she is already in it, before you can react Valkenha- I mean Aigis is doing her crazy mixups and cross ups.

Close Range:

I would never attack if she is in Orgia Mode, besides that I'm going to break it down into sections;

Airborne Aigis - Ground Liz:

I use to think that 2B was the answer, but does her j.C beat that? Seems to beat mine, because it's range is insane, so I'd be careful and watch out for that. If she hits you then prepare to face Orgia Mode.

Airbone Liz - Ground Aigis:

I usually just space myself out with j.B because her Furious Action doesn't look to strong to me.

Ground Aigis - Ground Liz: I would throw out 5C, but her 2C still punishes that, so it's the rolling phase and everything. If your pressuring her at the time, I wouldn't really use 5C > 2C or 5C > 5D, I'd just be doing something like 5A > 5AA > 5B > 5D or possibly > 5A > 5AA > 5B > 5C > 2D. Unless you want to try cross up Aigis though. 5B > 5D loses to 2C mashing though, so I wouldn't do it when Aigis is almost dead. If you have meter, then I usually become a free person, because I'd do something like 5C > 2C > OMC > 5C and for people that have seen that before it doesn't really work. So maybe 5C > 2C > OMC > 5D. Assuming they jumped after 2C or not, it could still work. If she is pressuring us, I don't have anything to say because the only times I can remember being pressured is during Orgia.

Punishing Her Furious Action:

I think Magarudyne goes through her Furious Action, which is insane, may have to test it but whatever. Other than that it's the classic baiting ways. And then Aigis is airborne after so I'd usually do 66 > 5C > 2C and from there on, does anybody do other things?

Close Range you can attack though I usually just try using 2B if she tries jumping. Which has worked a few times but if she does the cross up mentioned earlier I just turtle until the Aigis get's frustrated enough to use something that would give an opening. I know turtling isn't fun for both us and the opponent but Aigis's can make some serious damage if they get one tiny opening during the high-low mixup mentioned earlier.

It's not a bad thing to do nothing since Aigis can be rather irritating when it comes to her Athena countering you, Aigis's 2B, and the gattling gun. Though chipping away at Aigis is really our best way to take her down since it's hard to get an opening that would lead to a combo for us (except for if you can do the Magarudyne combo thing that I can't do...)

Aigis's JC? I don't think that's able to hit us.

And if it does hit us. It would most likely make a clash of hitboxes. And if that's the case then do J.C. immediately.

For the Punishment of Aigis's Furious Action I usually try to do a corner combo since I can extend the combo even longer. Trying to waste time so that Orgia Mode doesn't last much longer is the goal that I try to do when that happens. However if it's on midscreen then try the longest combo you can make at that part of the stage. Your way of a furious action works better then I do tbh since I usually just 66>Throw and go with whatever combo I could make (which doesn't make much considering the fact that there aren't much combo extensions with the throw on midscreen :P) I don't believe that Magarudyne works since the Furious Action is an explosion and has a a lengthy hitbox in terms of height. Although I haven't tested it either...

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Liz forums got some recent activity randomly. I figured I should share my Aigis matchup exp since I have played this matchup quite extensively.

First thing to realize is this is a bad matchup for Liz (its not Mits or Chie but still not good) probably 6.5-3.5 in Aigis favor. You don't really outdamage her as both of you will straight out die in two solid combos. She is also much faster and has much better tools at neutral.

Most importantly you have to make her afraid to 2B. There are a couple ways to do this. Timing garudyne to go through it wins you the round instantly if they don't have a burst, you can roll it, you can 5B/5C the startup (risky) or you can 236A > omc > wall stick combo them. Of these options 236A OMC is by far the best but it takes meter. Once you stop the constant 2B from Aigis you can start going crazy.

You want to do anything in your power to never have to block her. If you block her in orgia and they are good there is a good chance you just lost the round.

If you manage to make her block while she is in orgia burn all the meter you have to to keep her in blockstun as long as possible. With 100+ meter a lot of the time you can make her overheat with just blockstrings. If they are bad they will DP thanatos and you just won.

Zoning her isn't that effective because one good read and she wrecks you. I always had better results just going in on her constantly.

Oh one last thing random 5Cs will win you games as she will try to orgia dash/mode change/2b/shield etc. If you get them afraid of you you can turn the match in your favor and ride the momentum to repeated victories.

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First thing to realize is this is a bad matchup for Liz (its not Mits or Chie but still not good) probably 6.5-3.5 in Aigis favor.

Uh...last I checked, Chie vs Liz was 5.5-4.5 Chie if not barely 5-5. Aigis isn't really a bad match-up for Liz. Liz has means to deal with all of Aigis's airborne shenanigans.

Most importantly you have to make her afraid to 2B. There are a couple ways to do this. Timing garudyne to go through it wins you the round instantly if they don't have a burst, you can roll it, you can 5B/5C the startup (risky) or you can 236A > omc > wall stick combo them. Of these options 236A OMC is by far the best but it takes meter. Once you stop the constant 2B from Aigis you can start going crazy.

Honestly, a good Aigis won't be using 2B in this MU unless Liz is airborne. The only other time I can see Aigis using 2B is for a bad Persona call on Liz's part.

If you manage to make her block while she is in orgia burn all the meter you have to to keep her in blockstun as long as possible. With 100+ meter a lot of the time you can make her overheat with just blockstrings. If they are bad they will DP thanatos and you just won.

Why would you want to burn all your meter here when chances are the Aigis isn't even in orgia mode? If they are in orgia during your pressure then they either screwed up somewhere or don't have an effective Aigis. Burning all your meter on something that might not pay off is not a good decision considering with meter you can pretty much kill her in two/three confirms if not one.

Zoning her isn't that effective because one good read and she wrecks you. I always had better results just going in on her constantly.

Ugh...you want to be zoning her whenever you can, as any stray hit can turn into big damage. Saying 'one good read and she wrecks you' is silly because of the fact that this goes both ways. All Aigis needs to do is screw up once and that's quite possibly the end of the round for her. You don't want to just go in on Aigis, she'll fly over your 5C and any other bad normal placement and make you suffer for that decision. You basically want her to come to you or to zone her until she cracks. You also want to effectively anti-air her approaches with 2B and sweep or meet her in the air with j.A, j.B, or air turn j.D. Now, if you have her in the corner...then you are free to put as much pressure on her as you want, as you can shut down her options on reaction most of the time.

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Uh...last I checked, Chie vs Liz was 5.5-4.5 Chie if not barely 5-5. Aigis isn't really a bad match-up for Liz. Liz has means to deal with all of Aigis's airborne shenanigans.

Chie vs Liz is easily 7-3. All of Liz's decent tools are so slow that Chie just waits for you to pick one and then she punishes you for it. Once you are in the 5D blender the match is over unless you have a burst. That matchup is horrendous and you would know it if you played any seriously top Chies.

Ugh...you want to be zoning her whenever you can, as any stray hit can turn into big damage. Saying 'one good read and she wrecks you' is silly because of the fact that this goes both ways. All Aigis needs to do is screw up once and that's quite possibly the end of the round for her.

You can't zone a decent Aigis. 236A is punishable on block by orgia boost j.B/gatling gun. 236B is easily reactable and punishable. Fire lets her get in for free and is a joke in neutral. j.B loses to her 2B hard. Garudyne is negative on block. Even trying to 2B Aigis usually doesn't work since she will often try to cross you up or she can just stop short.

Oh and lets not forget that once she has 50 meter (read:most of the match) you CANNOT DO ANYTHING even from fullscreen. Shield super is a free punish to any fullscreen Liz button.

So I am honestly curious how you go about zoning Aigis successfully.

Oh and waiting for them to "screw up" is exactly why Liz is a bad character in a bad matchup. Aigis doesn't have to wait for you to screw up she can just open you up with legit mixups and kill you in two touches.

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Chie vs Liz is easily 7-3. All of Liz's decent tools are so slow that Chie just waits for you to pick one and then she punishes you for it. Once you are in the 5D blender the match is over unless you have a burst. That matchup is horrendous and you would know it if you played any seriously top Chies.

Lol. :P Seems I'm not the only hopeless one when it comes to Chie. Any ideas on how valuable moves like Mabufudyne, Maragidyne, ect are though? I'm curious since I don't play against Aigis much.

You can't zone a decent Aigis. 236A is punishable on block by orgia boost j.B/gatling gun. 236B is easily reactable and punishable. Fire lets her get in for free and is a joke in neutral. j.B loses to her 2B hard. Garudyne is negative on block. Even trying to 2B Aigis usually doesn't work since she will often try to cross you up or she can just stop short.

Oh and lets not forget that once she has 50 meter (read:most of the match) you CANNOT DO ANYTHING even from fullscreen. Shield super is a free punish to any fullscreen Liz button.

So I am honestly curious how you go about zoning Aigis successfully.

Oh and waiting for them to "screw up" is exactly why Liz is a bad character in a bad matchup. Aigis doesn't have to wait for you to screw up she can just open you up with legit mixups and kill you in two touches.

Lol. :P Seems like I'm not the only one who feels hopeless with Chie. Though I wonder: How useful are Mabufudyne and the other Ma-moves in our Aigis matchup truly?

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