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[Accent Core] Sol Badguy General Discussion

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This is misleading. A point blank 2P-2P or doing one with momentum will put you perfectly in their throw range. If they instant block, it's likely you'll be in their throw range as well. 2P-2P isn't always safe from having your WT attempt thrown

Really? Maybe I just haven't tested it on people with good throw range. Are you saying anyone would still be in throw range after blocking 2P > 2P? or just people with farther throw range?

cause I know at least vs. Sol, blocking 2P > 2P pushes him too far to throw your WT.

I tested/use this from running in after a gunflame FRC btw.

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Really? Maybe I just haven't tested it on people with good throw range. Are you saying anyone would still be in throw range after blocking 2P > 2P? or just people with farther throw range?

cause I know at least vs. Sol, blocking 2P > 2P pushes him too far to throw your WT.

I tested/use this from running in after a gunflame FRC btw.

Its not as cut and dry as that. If you're really close, you COULD be in their normal throw range, if you're running, the momentum COULD PUT you in their throw range, if they instant block, you COULD maybe NOT get OUT of their throw range.

its just a matter of how close you get when you do it, by all means it could be perfectly safe from throws if you do it from the correct distance, even if they IB, its just a matter of distance.

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BB is decent to build some guard meter since GF doesn't anymore and to catch backdashers. It can also surprisingly beat certain stuff vs some characters. If blocked late it's not bad really. And with the right setups, WT can become quite a threat. I'll post some traps and such: Use 6P where your setups can be mashed (usually when you try to throw them when you're a bit forther), but there's no point using it where they can't. Keep in mind that setups like late blocked j.S into WT aren't mashable. So abuse it until they start reacting correctly. But there's trick here anyway. If they IB your j.S, your setup will become easily mashable. And top players know that. So now your opponent has actually 2 easy ways (instead of one like before) of escaping and you'll need 2 different approaches (6P doesn't deal so well with jumpers/backdashers). We know that doing a low (for example 2p,2k,2h string.. and another thing, delaying 2k here will make them eat it more, cause they'll more 'see' WT coming) eliminates the backdash/jump danger if they try to react that way to your setups. So now something like j.S,2p xx GF FRC comes handy. Why? For many reasons: 1. It's an anti SRK setup. You do the FRC, tap 1 (d/b), and continue attacking. If they DPed in that moment, GF will hit them in CH and you'll just block the DP. You also have enough time to connect an uninterrumpable 2p/5p into mixup. 2. You basically do 2 things in 1. You do a frame trap + regain attack momemtum. 3. It works also very well against 2Pers etc. But 6P usually does that job fine. 4. With this setup you can go again into 2p/5p range, where setups are stronger on the long run, since it's harder to see if a throw will come or not. 4. It can easily bait DAAs, bursts, etc at the time you tap 1. -- One thing that I still like to do that is kinda gimmickly is ending a string with GF fake, then boom, FB fafnir. Tends to surprise people. Works similary from f.s,2s (whiff) -> FB fafnir Ending strings with 2s is also good for frame traps, since it leaves you at +3. So a FB fafnir, f.s etc are good options. So then things like dashing 5k,2h will be good too when they'll try to jump away and see there's no point counter pokeing Sol. But we must make them stand there, cause Sol's real mixup only from WT range like we all know. Another thing. In AC, Sol should do as much combos as possible with GV. So trying to catch them on something like 5k,2h xx GV is fondamental. Try to also confirm as much CH 2Ds, especially with dashing momentum where you'll be able to combo without tension. When you see it hit, just cancel to GF, even if you sometimes miss and it won't be CH. If you're sometimes out of range and you don't FRC, FB Fafnir can connect to continue the combo. Oh and I almost forgot.. CH 5H xx GV is gold too. Space yourself well and confirm it. nother thing, use FB fafnir into Tyrant Rave for chip damage! it does almost as much chip damage as Raoh's super. I hope this post helped. ;)

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Its not as cut and dry as that. If you're really close, you COULD be in their normal throw range, if you're running, the momentum COULD PUT you in their throw range, if they instant block, you COULD maybe NOT get OUT of their throw range.

its just a matter of how close you get when you do it, by all means it could be perfectly safe from throws if you do it from the correct distance, even if they IB, its just a matter of distance.

I see, I guess I'm just at the right range when I try it. I didn't account for IB :I:

We know that doing a low (for example 2p,2k,2h string.. and another thing, delaying 2k here will make them eat it more, cause they'll more 'see' WT coming) eliminates the backdash/jump danger if they try to react that way to your setups. So now something like j.S,2p xx GF FRC comes handy.

That sounds interesting, I'll have to experiment with this.

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I would agree that getting the J.S oki timing is very important. First of all, it is reversal safe if you time it correctly. Once you have established J.S > 2k or WT, you can get many more options from there. 6P still works as throw / mash bait. Air dash j. S > j.HS becomes more viable if they are afraid to DP and also works for throw bait. Landing lows and landing WT become more viable as well. As far as abare goes, I think Sol's is a little underestimated once you get good at it. There are plenty of tensionless combos that do tons of damage, besides you only need 25% to do the other ones any way. 50% should only be spent on a BR RC combo if you REALLY need it, otherwise it is not as efficient as just a KD and 2 GF FRC's in most cases. The fact that almost ANY 5K can lead to 30%+ and a knockdown; 2D CH is obviously ridiculous damage and j.HS CH's can also lead to good damage. All of this helps his abare lots. Hit confirming 5HS CH like Champion said is also very important. (P.S. Always hit confirm 5HS to 214 P/S, I know the IAD combo is cool but GV combo actually does more damage and works on crouching and short characters from any distance.) To continue on Champions point of comboing with GV, you have to remember how wide some characters' hit boxes are when they are crouching. You can get easy grand viper's on these people. IE After a blocked Greed Sever, Ky is in a crouching state and is as wide as like 1/2 the screen. 5S 5HS > GV that shit.

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Dustloop I didn't care for since REAL Sol players can kick ass without it.

That sums up my thoughts. Sol's been one of my main characters since the beginning of Guilty Gear, and in all that time I never once used the Dust Loop in an actual fight. The only time I ever used it was once in Training Mode, and only because I had heard about it once from someone online, so I just decided to see what they were talking about. It was amusing, but I didn't consider it worth using in a real fight.

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LOL. At high level play dustloop was fondamental. If anyone says otherwise simply doesn't have a clue. It's similar as playing him now without sidewinder loop.

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Not fundamental, but a good to know. You can live without a dustloop and still win matches. Its not really that similar to playing him without a sidewinder loop; a sidewinder loop is screen positioning independent while a dustloop requires a corner. While there were players in #R that would try to force their opponent into the corner, there were also plenty such as 012 and P.C that took the game for what it was and relied on simple midscreen combos. So playing without a dustloop back then was quite viable, in current days however, since the damage has become more consistent for each character and is also higher than #R a sidewinder loop is pretty much the way to go.

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Dunno why I'm even arguning with you, cause it's pointless, but it was hardly 'good to know'. That's just an ignorant statement. Killing your opponent in 2-3 less combos hardly makes it that way. So yeah, it was essential. Most top Sols always dustloop their combos that started from midscreen bringing them to the corner, including 012 in the matches i was watching. P.C seemed to be a little less consistent. Oh, and another thing.. overall dustloop did more damage than sidewinder loop, but the difference isn't that big.

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Well I don't, in any sense, consider myself a bad player, and I never relied on the Dust Loop in #Reload, which is the main Guilty Gear game I played until Accent Core+ came out. I didn't mind having to do a few more combos against my opponent in order to beat them, because it just meant I needed enough skill to last long enough to get those extra combos in, which I had no problem doing. I can understand why they removed the Dust Loop, because it was more or less an overpowered spam move. You can call people 'ignorant' all you like, but they're as entitled to their opinions as you are.

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It's not that you are dependand on dustloop to win, but when the right situation comes, it's such a waste if you don't do it. Dustloop was the main thing that made Sol so strong in #R and other games, and if you didn't learn it, it just made you work hella more to win. And against top players you might not even get those chances, to land more mixups and such. And it's not really about opinions here. It was a fact that dustloop was an essential thing to know in top level play. Cause the difference in damage was just too huge. Edit: reaver, i did play #R, that was my first GG ever. But I seriously started with /S like I told you. I can say I have enough game knowledge to know such things.

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Essential would mean its required for you to win, which is false. Your outcome is not dependent on whether you pulled a dustloop or not. Of course you should get the maximum damage output for a setup in any given situation, but you're not required to enforce those specific setups and then successfully convert them to a dustloop. Not to mention that higher level opponents generally avoid the situations where they can actually eat a dustloop. This was also one of the reasons why Sol wasn't any higher on the tierlist than he was. If he'd be able to dustloop back then like he could sidewinderloop now he'd almost be on par with Eddie.

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If he'd be able to dustloop back then like he could sidewinderloop now he'd almost be on par with Eddie.

This is one of the most laughable things I've ever seen you say. #R Eddie was top tier for many other reasons other than damage output and comboability; Sol's design had and still has a number of weaknesses (such as needing to be close to be effective).

In any case, knowing how to do Sol's dustloop in #R was a pretty big deal. Sure, you could possibly win without it, but you'd only be gimping yourself horribly. In a game where the higher tiers had easy, high damage combos (sans Millia), Sol needed dust loop to hang with them. Without dust loop, Sol's rank in tiers would have been D tier at most. Sol's dust loop was one of the main reasons he was ranked the way he was since, in a game like #R, having a combo that strong made you pretty damn good in relation to the rest of the cast.

And yes, not doing DL would be like not doing SW loops. You could still win without them but you'd only be giving yourself a handicap.

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Wow. All this from a post that's from 2 years ago? Like I knew WTF I was talking about back then. I couldn't even FRC GF consistently.

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I didn't mind having to do a few more combos against my opponent in order to beat them, because it just meant I needed enough skill to last long enough to get those extra combos in, which I had no problem doing.

landing mixups is a luxury. being able to break someone's defense and get in that damage makes you a threat, otherwise your options just arent as scary in order to really create a mind game (i.e. i punch you in the face, it hurt, let's do something else otherwise you might get punched in the face).

with that type of mentality, why not just win without combos at all? combos are CHEAP! if you really had skill, you should last long enough to survive with pokes alone.

can people win with pokes alone? sure, but it sure would help if they did more damage. dustloop was essential in #R, just as sidewinder is essential in AC. the term "essential" maybe subjective, so what does that personally mean to me? it means that you need it in order to not severely destroy your ability to win against the whole cast.

if the only threat of messing up a DP, or having my DP get blocked, is getting poked. i am going to horribly, and i mean horribly, abuse DP.

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Actually, I never had a problem with executing Dust Loop, but when I saw so many players (not professions, btw) abusing it constantly in youtube matches, I got a little disheartened by it. My execution doesn't 'suck', as you put it, but I'd expect that it's very easy for people online to poke fun at someone they've never met. It's a little immature. I found it a bit interesting that someone mentioned winning without combos, however, because they're really not that cheap in general since they're not endless, but there has been occassions when I actually did play without them, just for a fun challenge, and was able to win. It has nothing to do with me lacking the ability to use Dust Loop, and I'm not doing anything to weaken my options available to me in the game. If it's desperate, I'd prolly use it, but generally speaking it just leaves a bad aftertaste in my mouth. Judging a person based on whether or not they abuse Dust Loop isn't a very wise idea.

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because they're really not that cheap in general since they're not endless. If it's desperate, I'd prolly use it, but generally speaking it just leaves a bad aftertaste in my mouth. Judging a person based on whether or not they abuse Dust Loop isn't a very wise idea.

dustloop is also not endless.

it seems a bit naive to claim that because it is good and therefore used quite frequently, or "abused", it becomes cheap.

there is a sirlin article about this. i think it was playing to win? talking about roll canceling?

personally, when it comes to a game, and people start talking about having some sort of principles by limiting what they can do in the game, i think that is just ridiculous because you have a good tool and you don't use it. it is like having the availability of a hammer to nail something, but you say "hammers are cheap. it seems repetitive that people use a hammer all the time to pound in nails. i m going to push in nails with my thumb instead." that's great and all, you found your own method. just don't complain about any shortcomings you have later on, like "my thumb hurts like hell, why is it so difficult to pound in nails?".

turning the situation around, you seem to be claiming then that people who abuse it aren't really good players then? or you want to formulate an opinion without people having a counter argument to it?

you seem extremely defensive about what you have to say (i.e. talk about your execution when really that doesnt help your argument, and also constantly talking about how you arent a horrible player, because that doesn't help either). you are welcome to your opinions, but if you plan on posting it in a forum thread labeled "general discussion". you are going to get a critique on it in comparison to other people's opinions.

-----

anyhow, there is no reason to continue arguing on the situation because it really has nothing to do with accent core - sol. if you choose not to use sidewinder loops, i can just copy and paste the above.

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Actually, I never had a problem with executing Dust Loop, but when I saw so many players (not professions, btw) abusing it constantly in youtube matches, I got a little disheartened by it. My execution doesn't 'suck', as you put it, but I'd expect that it's very easy for people online to poke fun at someone they've never met. It's a little immature. I found it a bit interesting that someone mentioned winning without combos, however, because they're really not that cheap in general since they're not endless, but there has been occassions when I actually did play without them, just for a fun challenge, and was able to win. It has nothing to do with me lacking the ability to use Dust Loop, and I'm not doing anything to weaken my options available to me in the game. If it's desperate, I'd prolly use it, but generally speaking it just leaves a bad aftertaste in my mouth. Judging a person based on whether or not they abuse Dust Loop isn't a very wise idea.

Using your highest damage combo is by no way a form of abuse; this is a staple in ALL fighting games. The whole argument seems a little silly, IMO.

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Also take into account that awesome combos =/= cheap character, since being able to actually set up the combo/character's usefulness (mixup, pokes, zoning ability, etc.) is important too (See: GGX Axl Bomber infinite, El Fuerte infinite, etc.)

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I really don't care what total strangers think about my ability in the game. I never attempted to make a fight or argument with anyone. I merely stated an opinion, and one which other people share with me, and I got attacked for it. I find that really immature, but I'm gonna ignore it because I've got better things to do with my time then get involved with all the pointless attacking I see on the net. If you want to use Dust Loop a lot, then that's your choice, but I personally prefer winning without it. I just enjoy the matches a hell of a lot more. It has nothing to do with an inability to execute the move, or a lack of talent in using it. In my opinion, the fact that it was removed in later games alone acts as proof that the designers felt it was too easy to abuse. It might also just be in my own experience with it, but it also seems to be one of the only combos that the opponent can't break out of, and that's why I called it abuseable. The amount of damage it does just added to the feeling. But anyway, I'm not gonna waste anymore time getting into it, for the reasons I've stated above. I've got better things to do with my time then pick fights with total strangers and make pressumptious remarks about their abilities when I haven't even seen them play. I join these forums to get involved in communities where I can make friends and have discussions, but 9 out of 10 times they're just full of people looking for excuses to taunt others, and I find that extremely immature. You can call it 'scrub' mentality if you want, but you're just making stupid assumptions. I might not bother discussing games online anymore, because it seems like the people I run into are just looking for a good reason to attack the talents of others, maybe to try and make themselves look cool or something, but it really isn't working for them. I came here to find some good Guilty Gear players to have conversations with, but I'm tired of wasting my time with people who think they know everything, and are deluded enough to think that anyone with slightly different views is a 'newbie'. It doesn't look like I'll meet anyone here close enough to me to have some good games anyway, so nevermind.

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Here's the thing: when you come into a competitive gaming scene and say "I think xxx is abusable and I like winning without it", it creates a "holier than thou" persona that people dislike. When you make statements like that, you're projecting a view that you're higher than other people that use xxx, that you have a higher moral ground than they do. It's very similar to people that say "I use low tier because using high tier is cheap!" Nobody likes it when someone has a holier than thou attitude. It's only natural for people to have the reaction they did when you have an attitude like that.

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shoryu really doesnt listen to anyone. it just looks like he wants to post and not have any real response to it other than praise.

I really don't care what total strangers think about my ability in the game.

then stop posting your opinion online.

If you want to use Dust Loop a lot, then that's your choice, but I personally prefer winning without it. I just enjoy the matches a hell of a lot more.

you didn't even read my post did you?

It has nothing to do with an inability to execute the move, or a lack of talent in using it.

again with trying to defend your position and praise yourself for being a good player? nobody wants to hear that. if you want to see it written somewhere, please get your own little white board and a black marker, then write it out yourself "i am the best", and hang it up in your room then.

In my opinion, the fact that it was removed in later games alone acts as proof that the designers felt it was too easy to abuse. It might also just be in my own experience with it, but it also seems to be one of the only combos that the opponent can't break out of, and that's why I called it abuseable. The amount of damage it does just added to the feeling.

So the designers wanted to take out a number of loops in the game? so what? "one of the only combos that the opponent can't break out of? what game are you playing? because it isn't guilty gear.

I join these forums to get involved in communities where I can make friends and have discussions, but 9 out of 10 times they're just full of people looking for excuses to taunt others, and I find that extremely immature.

no your not. you are just trying to post your opinion and have nobody bring up any points to counter your statement. you just want people to nod and smile.

I might not bother discussing games online anymore, because it seems like the people I run into are just looking for a good reason to attack the talents of others, maybe to try and make themselves look cool or something, but it really isn't working for them. I came here to find some good Guilty Gear players to have conversations with, but I'm tired of wasting my time with people who think they know everything, and are deluded enough to think that anyone with slightly different views is a 'newbie'. It doesn't look like I'll meet anyone here close enough to me to have some good games anyway, so nevermind.

i posted legit reasoning behind where your statement falters, and you just shoot it down with just "its my opinion, don't argue with me". you bring in the same attitude to everyone else's response. nobody welcomes that type of an attitude, which is why it is a discussion board. people bring up points in order to DISCUSS. you have to be kidding yourself.

you talk like you are better than everyone else here? spirit juice sums it up, so i won't push that point any further.

bottom line, you aren't discussing. you just want to "state" things.

if you don't want to "discuss", fine, and good riddance.

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