[Accent Core] Sol Badguy General Discussion

[Veteru]

There are actually advantages to doing the bandit bringer loop, it's just... damage is not one of them. The main advantage: typically it builds more meter and also deals more stun damage than sidewinder loops. Sidewinder actually has a penalty for a stun modifier (.5). Sol is not a character who normally dizzies people... but he's still more capable of it than characters like Ky. It mainly depends on exactly how you play him / what setups you go for. Depending on your playstyle and the flow of the match, it might be worth going for the bandit bringer loop. The real problem with the loop is the difficulty in setting it up. Very few ways to combo into it without spending meter, and most aren't very common occurrences (2H counterhit can work). If you have to spend meter then the meter gain stops being as noteworthy. Next time I update Sol Combo Thread I'll list some variant combos including bandit bringer loops.

[axel]

That combo video is as awesome as Pleasure Heaven from GGXX Slash.

[Nives]

not to be a pain, but shouldn't this be discussed in the combo thread? i am at as much fault, didn't think bout this. anyhow, sol thread hasn't had much discussion about things other than combos lately. was looking through other matchup threads, and noticed how a lot of matchups talk about baiting VV as a very general tactic in playing against sol. so how about what happens when people play a sol who just doesn't use VV? VV is great and all, but with the risk, i actually think its the fact sol has a DP like that that is capable of beating out mostly everything that is a stronger tool for sol to use. if people try to bait DP all the time, doesn't that just make their offense weaker and limit certain options they could have normally tried if they were to predict when someone was not going to DP? don't get me wrong though, as a general tactic when i play sol vs sol, i try to use a lot of DP safe options, but thats when i get hurt by sol's who don't use DP that often then. playing the general DP safe game seems to work for the majority though. personally for me, i ve been trying to DP when its guaranteed, or if the player has to go out of their way really to bait the DP rather than doing stuff like DP safe offenses, instead of basing my DP's off of educated guessing. i think that when u land DP's, often times it can be ambiguous to the reason why the DP landed then, and gives the opponent the illusion that you are just good at guessing, or that you are throwing it at random and being lucky.

[Hatred Edge]

My main use of VV/SV is a counter tool. IMO Sol is a great character to bait and punish with. For instance vs Testament. Testament zones Sol with everything he has. At first I would just FDC and block if need be but after a while I became agitated from having to put up with that. So I started countering pokes with VV. Mostly things I knew I can execute VV against. A few matches against Slayer proved that jumping in on him was risky since a lot of people think Sol will jump in with j.P and j.HS. As such the Slayer I was fighting would AA with 2S. This would counter my jump ins and lead to Slayer's bitch ass combos. So I started to jump in and do nothing, if I see his 2S, I VV it. 6P? Block. BBU? Block. Even against the local Millia player. He started AA me with her 6P. It got on my nerves. So I when I jump in, thanks to 6P's SLOW and OBVIOUS animation, I started to VV it. I practice executing VV a lot vs various normals in training mode. It does help. If Sol doesn't VV that's one less thing for people to worry about. So I try to use everything Sol has. VV is a great tool IMO. It beats so many pokes. Damage wise it isn't all that great unles you have meter. But it does affect your opponent mentally. They start to learn that you can't just start poking at Sol. You have to poke cautiously. But, it's a 2 way street. You won't counter with VV everytime. Chances are you will mess up at some point. Your opponent starts to play safer and smarter. It's all part of the game. I remember my opponents thought I was doing it at random. The main reason I started to counter with VV was because everyone I play uses higher ranked characters:Eddie/Slayer/Millia/Jam/Baiken/Testament/Potemkin. And they are quite the pain in the ass. I had to do something.

[Nives]

So I started countering pokes with VV. Mostly things I knew I can execute VV against.

i think that is again really based on how predictable u see your opponent playing. as a general method of playing, ur more likely to miss then to hit something. i think there are better things to counter some pokes with then jump immediately to VV as a solution

If Sol doesn't VV that's one less thing for people to worry about. So I try to use everything Sol has.

i think people all know what sol's DP generally beats out, im talking bout playing against people who have a mindset of always baiting DP. It feels like a lot of sol players in general ...

And they are quite the pain in the ass. I had to do something.

... jump to VV as a solution when they cant think of another way. i think people can use it better without necessarily using it like how people hold bursts to bait burst baits, and get out of stuff for free.

[Hatred Edge]

i think that is again really based on how predictable u see your opponent playing. as a general method of playing, ur more likely to miss then to hit something. i think there are better things to counter some pokes with then jump immediately to VV as a solution

I experiment. If I can beat it with VV or something else, I will. VV is never an only option for me.

i think people all know what sol's DP generally beats out, im talking bout playing against people who have a mindset of always baiting DP. It feels like a lot of sol players in general ...

Wait, you mean Sol players being the ones who try to bait VV?

... jump to VV as a solution when they cant think of another way. i think people can use it better without necessarily using it like how people hold bursts to bait burst baits, and get out of stuff for free.

The way I saw it was if I can beat X with VV, in response my opponent might stop using X. This can lead to me being able to utilize other options instead of riding VV. My main thing with using VV is to counter against attacks. Not all attacks. Just some. I try other options as well. Sometimes I do jump in with j.P and j.HS or j.S. Pretty much a learning experiment for me. I do try other normals since chances are I can get much better damage off of them than VV.

Also have you noticed that since AC came out pretty much no one ends simple strings with VV KD anymore? A simple string into VV can carry an opponent further into the corner than BR. Just because the damage was reduced isn't a reason to stop using it to me.

[Nives]

Wait, you mean Sol players being the ones who try to bait VV?

i meant all people trying to bait DP, sol vs sol is a little narrow.

The way I saw it was if I can beat X with VV, in response my opponent might stop using X. This can lead to me being able to utilize other options instead of riding VV. My main thing with using VV is to counter against attacks. Not all attacks. Just some. I try other options as well. Sometimes I do jump in with j.P and j.HS or j.S. Pretty much a learning experiment for me. I do try other normals since chances are I can get much better damage off of them than VV.

i don't think anyone tries to only counter with DP. that would be stupid.

Also have you noticed that since AC came out pretty much no one ends simple strings with VV KD anymore? A simple string into VV can carry an opponent further into the corner than BR. Just because the damage was reduced isn't a reason to stop using it to me.

um, i dont know what you are talking about. a lot of sol players end their combos with VV KD, and who said anything about not using DP completely? it isn't too hard to wrap your head around how to use DP. i m talking about using it by not using it.

[Hatred Edge]

i meant all people trying to bait DP, sol vs sol is a little narrow.

If people are trying to bait, I use other options. Throws,pokes etc...

um, i dont know what you are talking about. a lot of sol players end their combos with VV KD, and who said anything about not using DP completely? it isn't too hard to wrap your head around how to use DP. i m talking about using it by not using it.

No I meant simple things like 3 normals then VV. I never meant sidewinder combos.

Using it by not using it? Sounds like the line"fighting without fighting". You mean using the fact that you're opponent is trying to bait to your advantage? What I did was what I stated above: Started to use pokes and throws more. They can't use their fastest normals either except for Axl but his is a more angle based/hitbox thing for wake ups. If your opponent tries to bait your VV when used as an AA by doing empty jump ins, you in turn air throw and/or 5K, j.P.

If they try to bait it on your wakeup don't do it. You have throws,backdash,normals at your disposal. The main is to use your other options whatever they are. If people start to try to bait VV don't do it use what else you have. Even if it's wake up and do nothing.

[feri]

I've seen the local sol player wakeup command grab for VV baiters... lol.

[Hideki]

Actually the fear against VV's priority is a great tool, maybe more useful than the move itself. I've been escaping lately from guaranteed baccus setups against Johnny by just doing nothing on wake up (random VV's also, for the sake of confussion). Same thing for wake ups, as long as you can guess right, a wake up 2+K, c.S is a nice way to get that momentum. Sol's all about guessing right, as long as you can do it, you should have no problems on wake ups.

[D4Nt3]

You are so right. Bad for my friend's sol today i guessed right in most mist trap cases with my johnny :P

[Avatar Z]

I apologize if this has already been discussed; it's a huge thread. What are some of Sol's mix-ups? The Sol 101 thread simply says "Pros: Has good mix-ups", yet doesn't list a single example. So far, here are the ones I use (and I bet they suck): 1) 2K -> 5D or 2D 2) Run in (possibly with GF FRC cover) -> VV or WT or Oh-Shit-FD-Brake! or (see #1) 3) Bandit Bringer -> Hope to God they forget to block it high. :D Umm... yeah... ~Z

[D4Nt3]

Case 3 happens to me very often after like K,S,HS, BB

[excelence]

1) 2k pause 2k... 2) agree 3) k,c.s(ji),f.s,hs,bb(frc)...

[Spirit Juice]

The problem with discussions like these, and apart from laziness/why I'm so hesitant on updating the guide, is that most of your mix up from Sol comes from experience. It's very easy to say "do this" and write down on "paper" for a player, but in the end it'll come down to play experience and knowledge of both Sol's options and your opponent's character's options. In other words, it's difficult to go too in depth with Sol's mix ups and options since it's based on predicting your opponent's actions.

[Teyah]

Even so, it's a good idea to write down the basic options Sol has to mixup / prevent opponent's escape from his mixup. General mixup aside, a list of common ways for the opponent to escape each variant of typical Sol mixup and Sol's anticipatory counters to these would go a long way in getting new ideas into the heads of less experienced Sol players. Of course it's best if you can correctly predict what your opponent's going to do, and what options he uses more often, but if you don't know the optimal counter to these actions then no amount of predictive ability is going to help.

[Hatred Edge]

For Sol, to me, he seems more poke heavy than a mixup based. So that's what I do. Sol doesn't have strong normals like May's to fall back on nor mixups like Millia to use either. I try to learn how to utilize his pokes.That being said, I feel Sol's more geared towards baiting than anything else. A prime example: WT setups. At one point or another your opponent will try to jump out.So what's the plan? 5K them into a possible Sidewinder combo. Or air throw or j.P. It's like Spirit Juice said. It's about experience. You have to learn to react to your opponent for Sol's mixups. People use Bandit Bringer? News to me. Nearly IMPOSSIBLE to land that on any opponent.

[excelence]

nearly impossible? ... the last time i ever landed BB on my crew is on slash in GF combos and sw loop

[Hatred Edge]

That's back when it was worth using. Now with 66% proration and ground slide, it's like ehhhhh.

[excelence]

no i mean, nearly impossible is good for you... on my crew i can just dream on ever hitting BB on any possible mix up XD

[D4Nt3]

Well u dont always intend to hit someone with BB i think. As it is +0 on block and closes many distance personally i find it useful. My friend who plays sol does gatlings into BB or GF, so i try to jump block it and avoid both of his options. Sometimes in the corner GF cannot be avoid by jump (need jump, FD), so BB might work. Also at corner after short gatling ex. K,cS,BB or ex. running K,cS,2D,BB the BB will miss and if the opponent doesnt know (and it is very difficult to just see) u have a good advantage for a free WT. Of course for this to happen the opponent must not use FD. Also dunno what option u could have if u FRC it after gatling at corner.

[Hatred Edge]

What the hell is wrong with the hitbox for BB? There are times that it whiffs. Even in the damn corner. I didn't experience that before in XX or XX/.

[Spirit Juice]

Even so, it's a good idea to write down the basic options Sol has to mixup / prevent opponent's escape from his mixup. General mixup aside, a list of common ways for the opponent to escape each variant of typical Sol mixup and Sol's anticipatory counters to these would go a long way in getting new ideas into the heads of less experienced Sol players.

Of course it's best if you can correctly predict what your opponent's going to do, and what options he uses more often, but if you don't know the optimal counter to these actions then no amount of predictive ability is going to help.

gb2/canada/

Seriously though, I do plan on updating the guide with info like that... one day, but like I said it'll be just basic stuff. Varying the strings in order to predict their opponent's next move is entirely on the player's experience and yomi.

For Sol, to me, he seems more poke heavy than a mixup based. So that's what I do. Sol doesn't have strong normals like May's to fall back on nor mixups like Millia to use either. I try to learn how to utilize his pokes.That being said, I feel Sol's more geared towards baiting than anything else.

A prime example: WT setups. At one point or another your opponent will try to jump out.So what's the plan? 5K them into a possible Sidewinder combo. Or air throw or j.P. It's like Spirit Juice said. It's about experience. You have to learn to react to your opponent for Sol's mixups.

People use Bandit Bringer? News to me. Nearly IMPOSSIBLE to land that on any opponent.

It's good to learn how to poke with Sol, but remember that his pokes are relatively weak compared to some characters; his most effective range is up close in someone's face. Sol's primary mix up game is baiting them into a mistake or command grabbing them.

[Hatred Edge]

Sol's primary mix up game is baiting them into a mistake or command grabbing them.

I think that's what throws people off about Sol. His mixup isn't the traditional mixup setup.

[NukleuZ]

I was just wondering about a thing regarding BB. Sometimes during fun matches against Potemkin, not that I want to use BB against him lol, but for fun. BB crosses, is this only possible against Potemin? Any spesific range you need to be at and ofc timing? Has anyone tried som funny crossover stuff with BB?