[Accent Core] Sol Badguy General Discussion

[VR-Raiden]

I have a random question... Is it possible to do a Fefnir instantly from landing, so that you cant be thrown as you land too close to the opponent? I've gotten people with this from messing around with it in training/casuals. It works sometimes, then other times they throw me before it comes out. I assume that happens either because either I'm timing it perfectly, or they aren't reacting to throw me fast enough. But theoretically, can you have Fefnir come out the instant you land, making you unthrowable?

[Brent-quest]

VR yes, Fafnir can be legit throw bait. It's been around for a while. Catches backdashes and jump attempts as well for clean hits on certain characters. It works occasionally but definitely not something you want to whore. See here for Fafnir uses. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYh8z1aPNwM

[Nives]

i don't think fefnir is throw invulnerable on startup. i think the frames for when its throw invulnerable is a bit later.

[Spirit Juice]

It's invulnerable to throws on frames 1-7.

[VR-Raiden]

Ok thanks, I do remember seeing that vid before Brent-quest. I wasn't sure if I was getting thrown simply cause I was timing it wrong. Looks like that is indeed the case.

[Veteru]

Hey Veteru (or anyone for that matter) can you post up the combos from Air Throw > 5H > IAD link j.p > whatever? Jaison and Kyle told me you did 'em on lightweights but I haven't had my own game to practice on in over a month so any help would be nice.

Also, any tips on inputting sj.IAD/ normal j. IAD to a 236 motion. (Sidewinder in this case) I try 196236+H but I always seem to get a VV to come out instead. Thanks.

Hi Brent-quest. Normally I don't view the other Sol threads because this isn't my forum / area of responsibility, but I chanced across your post while using a secret technique developed by 低姿勢. In the future, if you ever want to ask me something, make sure to post it in my only thread on the Sol boards: "New! Sol Combo Thread"

To answer your question about IAD sidewinder, the correct motion to use for it is 236956+H. You might think that the motion will be forgotten by the time you're ready to press H for sidewinder, but it's important to realize when the correct timing is. It's not the same timing as if you wanted to iad jS.

Basically all airdashes in Guilty Gear work this way:

You start moving on frame 1 of the airdash

Around frame 4-6 you are allowed to cancel into any attack (the exact amount of time depends on who you are. For Sol it's 5). You are not allowed to use Faultless Defense or guard during this time.

After a certain point, your airdash will end and you will start to fall. Performing an attack will no longer leave you with airdash momentum. You regain the ability to guard / faultless defense.

So as far as canceling your airdash into attacks goes, the restriction only applies to normal moves. In other words, you can perform a special move immediately after airdashing.

So, while practicing IAD sidewinder, take note on whether or not you are getting whiffed jH when you fail. If you are, then it means you are pressing H much too slowly. If you are getting IAD -> nothing, then it means you didn't perform the motion fast enough and it was forgotten by the time your airdash started.

This same motion is used for many of the common IAD attacks in the game, like Baiken's IAD tatami gaeshi.

Probably not what you had in mind, but recently I have been working on reverse IAD volcanic viper. The motion I'm using is 64623. It has some application for crossup setups, but it's kind of awkward to actually use it in a match.

----------------------

Concerning your first question about airthrow -> 5H iad jP: Against most characters connecting jK is more consistant (even though the jK is slower and therefore the timing is harder) because sometimes jP just doesn't reach far enough to connect. If you looked in the

Sol combo thread, I list this combo:

Low airthrow, 5SH, SJIAD.KS, VV(623H214K) = 105/116 (depends on # of VV hits).

Of course, that combo is meant for normal weights, with light characters you can start straight with jH which usually means they are closer to you as well (iad followup is easier), but the downside is there are less options off of it (light characters fly up really high when you VV them, so you can't get the knockdown kick ever). Depending on who the target is, sometimes you can get 5H sjiad jPK -> j236K, or just 5H sjiad jK -> (delay cancel)j236K. If your opponent is in/near the corner it's possible against more people. From air bandit revoler you can land 5k, jPK -> sidewinder.

One interesting alternative, which really only works well against the light characters:

After a midscreen airthrow that is very low to the ground, you can actually run forward, 5K2H -> air combo (jH sidewinder mostly). The timing is very difficult, but it's worth looking into if you have problems with the SJIAD combos (or even if you don't...).

Also depending on what motion you use for SJIAD -> jK, you might have a lot of trouble performing it. You have to make sure to go through neutral or else you'll end up doing SJIAD -> air bandit revolver.

Lastly, everyone gets released from Sol's airthrow differently. Even if they have the same gravity, I think some characters get tossed closer/further away from Sol... and of course, everyone has their own hitboxes which affect your possible combo followups (and for some reason, Sol can never do low airthrow -> fafnir (clean hit) against himself... it just magically doesn't cleanhit). Experiment to find the best combo for the characters you're more likely to fight.

[Brent-quest]

snip

Thanks! I will work on that stuff. Very informative.

[Spirit Juice]

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but japanese players suck. They don't have two brains, and are not given superhuman abilities from birth, competition is just more accessible to them. Just the way people think they are generally smarter when really academic success is just more valued to them and they study hard. Why put them on a pedestal when you can practice and surpass them? They should not be able to dictate how we play the game.

GF FRC is a gimmick. And it can be just as unsafe. You make it sound like br is unsafe to do when there is no 100% foolproof pressure or mixup without any holes. You're supposed to take advantage of when the opponent tries to use these holes. If you don't think that at multiple points in a blockstring being able to send a flying sol at your enemy with attacks that have to be blocked high instead of the usual low is a good thing then I don't know what to tell you.

You see, when you make ignorant posts like this I can't help but think you're trolling. Let's be real here; Japanese players do not suck. Don't kid yourself. All those players that went to SBO suck? Are you serious? You're right that they're not superhuman, but to say that they suck (i.e. they don't know what they're doing) is just plain ignorant. You don't think Sol players have sat down and tried every thing they could with BR FRC? You don't think players like Isa, 012, P.C, Kishitaka, Roi, and other good Sol players didn't experiment with BR FRC's potential? You don't think that in the whole two years the game has been out, Sol players haven't experimented with BR FRC's potential? There's a reason why it's not used very often: because it's a gimmick and/or not very useful outside of combos.

I don't think you realize what a gimmick is in relation to fighting game strategy. A gimmick is something you'd use that is weird, unconventional, and used to throw the opponent off. Good players will often see through your gimmicks very quickly, making them gimmicks since they'll only work once or twice. A good example of a gimmick Sol player would be Kusoru, who does all kinds of crazy, unconventional stuff. He does manage to win sometimes, but he is definitely not as solid as the Sol players I mentioned above and not SBO material (as much as I love to see him play).

That said, GF FRC is NOT a gimmick. It is a tried and true way since XX to get back in on the opponent for a mix up. It's not without it's flaws, but it definitely is reliable. If you really think BR FRC is the way of the future, then go for it. Experiment with it in actual matches against good players. See how it goes. Try to use it reliably. I'm pretty sure you'll come to realize that it's not as great as you think it is.

[Senkei]

Yea comparing GF frc to BR frc is kinda silly since what was stated above by spirit juice. When I played games with Robot months ago he used BR frc's as a use of tricky cross-up's but wasn't really all that amazing. It was cool as shit to look at and fast but didn't work all the time. I was much more afraid of his GF as a means of reapplying pressure and it's ability to set mix-ups. Didn't mean to invade, I'm not a Sol player but I play against em all the time. To me BR frc seems most useful in Combos anything else besides that kinda seems a bit too much... On the other hand I play kinda flashy and however you want to play should motivate you. But don't trash Japanese Beasts, that's just silly.

[Raijin_CFN]

1

I did not say that all japanese players suck. I am just tired of them being idolized when anyone can be as good. They're not good just because they're japanese.

2

It wasn't a know it all topic. I was asking for ideas, and got way less ideas suggested to me than were in that video. I also got the "you're a moron" vibe for trying to think outside the box when I've been playing gear with espada members for a year.

3

GF FRC can be countered just as easily as BR FRC mixups. They both cost 25 tension. Every mixup has a counter. If someone knew you were going to GF FRC and go in for a throw, they would not block, and would just combo you while you look silly trying to throw. If they knew you would dust, they would ib and hurt you. Or they'd just block low in the case of low attacks. Every pressure has its holes no matter what. The chance they would defend against br frc on reaction is about the chance they'd defend against GF FRC mixups on reaction. I'm not saying BR FRC>GF FRC. I know that rushing behind a GF has its advantages over a naked sol flying through the air but BR FRC does have its uses. I think that this information should be available for people to know so that they can make the decision whether or not they want to use it. If I got hit by a "gimmicky" combo and lost a tournament match simply because I didn't see it coming because noone decided to cover it on DL I would feel betrayed kinda.

[Senkei]

I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but japanese players suck. T

if that's not what you said then.....

It's possible to become as good as the japanese but you need to be in the same environment to be as good as them. Playing with your Espada buddies or hours in training mode won't make you the next Dogura. You need to travel and play a plethora of different character players and at high skill lvls. In japan that is relatively easy. The U.S not so much.

Now

GF frc is safer and it's a staple in Sol's rushdown and mixup game period. BR frc is not a staple strat that is based heavily on his game play. GF frc>BR frc period. They are not equal at all.

Sol could deal without BR frc. If he didn't have GF frc he'd kinda be fucked.

[Raijin_CFN]

GF frc is safer and it's a staple in Sol's rushdown and mixup game period. BR frc is not a staple strat that is based heavily on his game play. GF frc>BR frc period. They are not equal at all.

Sol could deal without BR frc. If he didn't have GF frc he'd kinda be fucked.

Japanese players just don't match up to the hype they receive. There's some big names out there but most of the players on youtube with japanese characters for names are no better than their american counterparts.

Pretty much you're saying it is a staple in his rushdown. Fair enough.

I realize that it is a staple but you are not questioning why it is a staple. You're trying to make perfect pressure noone can escape from which is impossible in GG. You're using GF FRC because people tell you to in a certain situation no matter what. GF FRC is not safe when someone can see through you and tell what you're going to do next. In some situations BR FRC or a gv and RC may be better because they will not see it coming. It is always good to have more options so you are less predictable. You may not use it, but it is good to know it's there. This type of thinking that gimmicks are bad is going to kill any creativity.

Gimmicks=/=bad

Gimmicks=Gimmicks

Can we just leave it at that and talk about combos again? I'll debate this with you in another thread if you wish.

[Spirit Juice]

Japanese players just don't match up to the hype they receive. There's some big names out there but most of the players on youtube with japanese characters for names are no better than their american counterparts.

You seem to be under the impression that when people say "Japanese players", they mean ALL Japanese players. Generally when people say that, they generally refer to the top or well known players. Yes, there are Japanese scrubs and whatnot, no one will deny that, but generally when people say "Japanese players" they're talking about the good, well known players.

[Tsak]

dude really GF is not made to be perfect pressure no character in guilty has perfect pressure some can make it almost perfect though if someone can see what you do next before you do it nothing will work thats why psychic theory fighter is lame srsly its sol you have options but your limited to what works BR frc is a gimmick GF frc is not its a staple pressure option that helps sol get inside where other moves can't BR frc gets you inside every once and a while until the opponent gets used to it then it doesn't work

[Raijin_CFN]

Well we had a misunderstanding then. It just aggravates me that some people really believe that stereotype. Both GF FRC and BR FRC have a chance to fail, so I really do not see your point. You have yet to explain why. "GF FRC is a staple pressure because it is a staple pressure". WTF. The reason your attacks don't fail is because your opponents aren't psychic. You said it yourself Tsak. When they know you are capable of multiple mixups they will be less likely to pick the correct one to defend against. I am NOT. I repeat NOT advocating using BR FRC over GF all the time. But I really hate the narrowmindedness towards gimmicky mixups when needed.

[Orrax]

I would like to apologize in advance for the long post and the inordinate amount of theory fighter contained within. Correct me if I'm wrong, Raijin, but you seem to be saying that anyone can counter mix ups if they see them coming, but I'm not sure it's actually that simple. It seems to me that gimmicks are pretty much always countable if you see them coming, while genuine mix ups aren't. You're right to say that all mix ups have a counter, but good mix ups have no safe, highly reliable counter, whereas gimmicks do. As an example, I'll look at the setup in the video where Sol lands a 5H at some distance in the corner, and consider BR FRC vs GF FRC, and assume that in both cases the opponent anticipates the mix up coming. First, I'll look at GF FRC. The 5H will force the opponent to block long enough so that the GF FRC will come out. The opponent can't poke or backdash safely here on account of a wall and a column of fire, so they can either jump, block, or use some move with enough invuln to go through gunflame. Invulnerable moves can turn a fight, but they can also be really risky; so long as the Sol player blocks the move, the opponent is likely to get CH'd by the gunflame and eat a 50+% combo and a knockdown. Not exactly a safe option. Jumping is safer, and, indeed, seems to be the most common method for escaping GF pressure and mix ups, but keep in mind that Sol's 5K is great at catching jumps and once in the air the opponent has to deal with air throws and Sol's great anti-air. Still not all that safe, and leaves Sol at an advantage. The last option is to block. Blocking the gunflame leaves the opponent in a hit stun that lasts long enough for the Sol player to enforce a mix up (I usually start mine with 2P), and we see some similar options. The opponent can try to poke out, but 6P and 2D lead to nasty counter hits, and 5K can lead to GV, which is just as bad. Jumping is even less safe because of the close proximity of 5K, same with backdashes, and DPs and other invulnerable moves are just as unsafe as before. Blocking is the safest option, but it risks being wild thrown. Hence, the opponent must guess: either jump or back dash to escape the wild throw (poking and DPs can work, but DPs are just as unsafe as before and a well-timed WT will actually catch a lot of pokes), or block. A wrong guess either way is going to lead to big damage for Sol, while a correct guess will lead to either blocked attacks and a new chance to escape or damage for the opponent, but probably not as much as Sol would get off of a wrong guess. Now I'll consider BR FRC. The first thing to notice is that 5H does not keep the opponent in hit stun long enough to enforce the mix up and that Sol's position in the air leaves him very vulnerable to a lot of 6Ps. In fact, I think every single mix up that was done in that video will lose to a well timed 6P for many characters. There is the threat of a VV from Sol, but that runs into the same risks as DPs in the prior example, and a blocked VV is going to lead to much more damage for the opponent than a VV that connects will for Sol. Also, for characters that don't have a reliable 6P, air throw will win. If neither of those, then FDing in the air is safe against all of those mix ups. So, my point is that GF FRC has counters and ways to escape, but those counters are not entirely safe and lead to the opponent taking risks which can be punished. The risks BR FRC requires to counter, on the other hand, are pretty minimal, which gets back to the whole gimmick vs mix up thing. BR FRC is a gimmick because it is very easy to beat if the opponent sees it coming (and it's not particularly hard to see coming), while GF FRC can be hard to deal with even if the opponent sees it coming, which is a big part of why GF FRC is a tried and true staple of Sol's rush down while BR FRC is not. tl;dr GF FRC has counters which force the opponent to do risky things while BR FRC does not, which is why GF FRC is a staple of Sol's gameplay and BR FRC isn't.

[Raijin_CFN]

That is an excellent point, you are completely right, and that was very well said. It does have its weaknesses. Being that it is a gimmick and has more holes than most mixups. It is not to be used extensively, but as a mindfuck. Take into account: Your opponent would have to have knowledge of this mixup and they would have to know that you have the knowledge, the execution, and the balls to attempt this. By sending a flying sol at them you don't have to attack. You could simply force a reaction from them. They could panic and try to dp you. You could simply block whatever they do instead of attacking and punish. You could double jump over their attempt and attack coming down. The possibilities are endless. you don't have to attack in the air. You can land and low attack, or throw. The main weakness of this mixup is getting 6p'd. They would probably be scared to because anyone who would attempt this gimmicky mixup would know they could be 6p'd and be prepared to vv or simply block their 6p. jh should win out on some 6ps I think but don't take my word on that. The advantages you can get from a surprise BR FRC are too great to look past. Throughout the match this never crosses your opponent's mind or they're like "he'd never do that" and then you do and they have a split second to respond with sol coming at them at 40 mph.

[2Piece]

ROFL,some1 deleted my money match post here...dang,y u hatin b?!? lol ....

[VR-Raiden]

What's up with c.S beating dead angles? I saw someone say it in the "How to beat dead angles" thread, and I ended up doing it in some matches (unintentionally ). I've seen it make 2 characters dead angles miss, and one of Baiken's counters miss. I geuss it just moves Sol's hitbox forward a lot? Just something I never knew.

[Nives]

whose dead angles does it beat?

[VR-Raiden]

I know it beat I-no's, can't remember the other, might have been Sol's. And it beat Baiken's anti-air counter (don't know the name, the one where she shoots the blade thing up on the chain). This was on #Reload, but I assume it wouldn't be different in AC.

[Nives]

any videos? because 5S is not active for that long, but dead angles are all invulnerable for a period of time.

[VR-Raiden]

any videos? because 5S is not active for that long, but dead angles are all invulnerable for a period of time.

Yeah, I can get a vid of it. I wasn't specific on how 5S "beat" the dead angles. What I meant was it made both their dead angle and my 5S miss, and I would recover first so I got a free hit.

edit: Here it is, slowed it down a bit when it happens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LM-Lvj1KFa8

[Nives]

i can understand that. stuff like that happens with 5H and 6H as well.

[Blade]

Question...can a "deep guarded" Bandit Bringer lead into Wild Throw? By that I mean, it's blocked deep and you land close enough for it.