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NickExtreme1

[P4A] Labrys - Gameplay Discussion

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You have to piano it? Thought it was just the reversed attack that mattered. I haven't even tried doing those yet, I don't have the ability to play the game at home. I can only play at the arcade against other people, and almost no one plays Chie, lol.

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Can they?

I could have sworn I had the dummy set to tech in the first frame.

Oh well. I'll just double check when I get home.

You know I'm talking about using this to make them block an incoming mix-up right? Not a combo.

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Yeah, they should be able to just forward or back air tech. Hell, they might even be able to forward tech and punish you for trying to put a sword down there.

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I'm definitely testing the tech time on that. I might have been in Red Axe mode.

I was testing this while doing her Challenges so I didn't have the normal control.

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TBH below Green axe, Auto-Combo is more or less what you're doing anyways. Either that or xxx -> sweep -> w/e.

I don't think this character has any unwinnable level matchups from what I've seen in higher level play, just some REALLY hard ones due to her pressure and mixup game. Am I the only one who loves her English voice?

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I like her JP voice more, just for the Kansai-ben, but I really like how they localized her accent. Good stuff from Atlus' localization team, as usual. :)

The 5AAA > 236A > 6 > A combos are always stable, as well, for those times you aren't in range for the last hit.

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Also, how have you guys been closing the gap against zoning oriented characters?

236A/B is HORRIBLE. Slow and if you whiff they can punish you from full screen, DO NOT do that. 236SB is good but it costs meter (Then again, no matter what you're hoarding meter with this character). Seems like you just have to play absolutely patient to have any chance against zoners.

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I don't think she has any match ups in her favor at all.

Other characters can get big damage off their first hit.

Labrys can't because of the Axe level mechanic. You've gotta have your oki and mixups on point to make sure you get that next hit to build up to a level you can actually do something with.

Her persona moves aren't very good either. 5C needs to be spaced properly or they only have to block part of it. 2C is alright for frame traps. 5D is alright for pressure and oki, but it's very slow :C And both the jump versions are super gimmicky unless you're using them in a combo.

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Against zoners, just move towards them slowly. That's about all I can say. SB Chain Knuckle has its uses, but more often than not you'll just be jumping or dashing towards them slowly. Tsurugi (Sword, 22X series of moves) and 5C have their uses, as well, but you have to be pretty cautious with them.

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Roll in, and tsurugi works better than Chain on my experience fighting Kuma... we just need a lot of patience when fighting Zoner ... err not only Zoner, we also need lot's of patience against those who excel on close quarter when we get pined down :vbang:

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Did some ghetto frame data experimentation to get a rough estimate of what the +/- frames on various things are by setting the dummy to block and jump after blocking a move on the ground then holding up as you exit pause, getting off the ground first is a rough approximation of if you're + or not.

+frame moves - j.B, 5B charge, 2B (?, hard to tell since it's JCable), 2A (Neutral it seems). 22X series

-Frame - Almost everything else, notably all forms of Guillotine axe including SB. Though - on block Guillotine axe is probably safe if spaced properly. 5B uncharged is horrible. Also I actually thing 5AA might be MINUS frames, but it's so small it's almost like being at neutral. AoA is horrendously unsafe even at Red Axe. 5AAA is horrible. 5C is a little bit unsafe.

These are just rough approximations, and if there's some delay on when the dummy switches between standing and jumping commands the data might actually be off by a lot. But better than nothing maybe? The difference between charge 5B and regular 5B is huge though.

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Not sure if your stuff agrees or disagrees with the JP wiki chart, but I'll link it anyway:

http://w.livedoor.jp/p4u_matome/d/%a5%e9%a5%d3%a5%ea%a5%b9%a1%a1%b4%f0%cb%dc%a5%c7%a1%bc%a5%bf

On the bottom half of that page, the JP wiki recently added a frame data chart for Labrys. In order, the columns are as follows: Move Name, Damage, Active Frames*, Recovery, Startup, Frame Advantage, Notes.

Those aren't official numbers, they're just numbers people have tested out for Labrys, so they're not 100% accurate. I'd ignore the active frames column, since they seem a bit unreliable. The startup and advantage columns seem solid, though.

Official 5A/2A numbers are here: http://puu.sh/QeD4

All of Labrys' aerial moves are probably minus on block, by the by, in an air-to-air situation or whatever. She seems to have next to no landing recovery off of them, though, so doing any of them close enough to the ground makes it plus, except maybe j.C.

*or so we're guessing, anyway

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Sorry I havent spoken much or updated combo threads guys, Ive been trying to test things myself when I can and just get used to the game more. I'm still tore about the combo thread layout, do you guys think we should just have recommended axe building combos for Gray - Green or have ideas to condense it a bit.

Also looking at the combo video by Maki there was a setup for Brutal Impact, what do you guys think of it ?

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do you mean the one where BI hits right after the spike wears off for a reset? (3:28) i dont like it.

things that might beat that setup

roll, if frame 1 invul (free punish if so)

invul supers (labrys gears comes to mind)

some dps (mitsu?)

guard points moves? (labrys dp)

gold burst? you are out of combo for at least 1 frame

if these things dont beat it, then its solid, but it seems escapable

side note at labrys dp being throw invul. laugh at kanji as you call him out on wakeup throw super lol

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For Green or lower, I'd say just recommended axe building combos should be fine. While I've seen it happen a few times before, unless you whiff or are blocked on a red axe finisher, you're generally taking the round there and then. If that was the last round, then all's good, but if not, then you'll want to build back up in a combo or two, and don't really want to be trying to get the most damage out at these levels.

Though I wonder if they've got any real downside to being in Grey or Blue axe levels, other than just being that much farther from Red axe. It kind of feels like they're on there just for visual cues or something.

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The main thing is the damage. You do so little damage below green that your 'worthwhile' combo options usually amount to auto combo or xx into sweep anyways. I THINK the 22x reset combos still work (The 25 meter ones) but they so such horrible damage it's like not even worth it below green.

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do you mean the one where BI hits right after the spike wears off for a reset? (3:28) i dont like it.

things that might beat that setup

roll, if frame 1 invul (free punish if so)

invul supers (labrys gears comes to mind)

some dps (mitsu?)

guard points moves? (labrys dp)

gold burst? you are out of combo for at least 1 frame

if these things dont beat it, then its solid, but it seems escapable

side note at labrys dp being throw invul. laugh at kanji as you call him out on wakeup throw super lol

All reversal actions will beat that setup and the setup that Setsuna mentions. Roll may or may not, depending on how tight you set it up (roll is frame 3 invuln, iirc), though in normal situations, opponents can always beat BI by rolling on the superflash. Gold burst is questionable, not sure how long BI lasts, and gold bursts don't have that many active frames themselves. I'd guess the burst would win, though. In the linked setup, it might even be possible to guard cancel and recover in time to jump out of the setup.

All those setups are good to know, though. Even if they only work once, once is plenty.

And for axe combos, I'm going to agree that everything below green should probably be focused on building gauge.

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theory: at the very minimum, 5b has repeat proration unless something is weird with my combo execution

example

red axe, crouching, counter hit

5b ch - 5a 2b 214ab 22a 5aa (string hits) [bd] for 3305

5b ch - 5a 2b 24ab 22a 5a 5b (string hits) [bd] for 31xx

any one else know of other repeat moves/confirm 5b has repeat? or how much they repeat for? useful to know and would like a confirm outside myself

trying to think of combo pieces

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Not sure if this had already been said, but I'll just put it out there just in case.

I was playing around with hops and I found out that j.B gives a hitstun long enough that it combos even with the hop recovery. This works regardless of the Axe level. Not sure if this is true for all characters (I tested it out on Yu and Yukiko). You could also you 22x in conjunction to give you some cover. Though it's probably better if you use j.A with the 22x so it's a little safer.

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theory: at the very minimum, 5b has repeat proration unless something is weird with my combo execution

example

red axe, crouching, counter hit

5b ch - 5a 2b 214ab 22a 5aa (string hits) [bd] for 3305

5b ch - 5a 2b 24ab 22a 5a 5b (string hits) [bd] for 31xx

any one else know of other repeat moves/confirm 5b has repeat? or how much they repeat for? useful to know and would like a confirm outside myself

trying to think of combo pieces

How much damage does 5AA do compared to 5A > 5B normally? Then check and see which one has better proration by adding another move onto the end, like 2B and seeing how much damage is added. Set the dummy to not tech, of course.

If you want to figure out if there's repeat prorate and how much it is, you'll have to test the proration of 5B normally, first. You can do that by checking its damage and the damage of another move and then comboing 5B into the other move and checking damage, etc. After that, you check the proration you get from comboing 5B into itself.

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red axe ch 5aa is 505

red axe ch 5a 5b is 868

dunno the math for proration that well. i get how it works but never did the paperwork for it. fuck bb. lol

side note, fun fact

if your [bd] doesnt launch them (eg you hit them in the 22x string too early) you can NOT super cancel it !

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You mean at Green level? Well, there's...

5AAAA

5A>5B>2AB (After sweep you can either 214A for damage or 22x for oki...or do nothing at all)

2B>j.B>j.C>j.214B (You can add super at the end)

236x>6>AB>66>AAA>214AB>214B

5AA>214AB>22A>5A>(could do different stuff from here on because of the 22A)

There's a little bit more, especially some that will get you to red axe in just that one combo, but I'm not familiar with them. Most combos below yellow level are pretty bare bones.

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You mean at Green level? Well, there's...

5AAAA

5A>5B>2AB (After sweep you can either 214A for damage or 22x for oki...or do nothing at all)

2B>j.B>j.C>j.214B (You can add super at the end)

236x>6>AB>66>AAA>214AB>214B

5AA>214AB>22A>5A>(could do different stuff from here on because of the 22A)

There's a little bit more, especially some that will get you to red axe in just that one combo, but I'm not familiar with them. Most combos below yellow level are pretty bare bones.

Nice thanks. I guess I will use her auto-combo until I reach her best color. How does her axe colors work?

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