[CP] Tsubaki Changes and Discussion

[Airk]

Who needs unblockables when you got a command grab

I do. More options = better. Besides, the two options are relevant at very different times. One wonders what the point of 22D will be if it can't be unblockable though; I'm going to be really sad if it's just "yeah, this has better proration".

Anyway, if the bar has no segments, it probably just means they've gone to a "marvel style meter" for it - i.e. you charge the bar up the whole way and then the number next to it goes up and the bar becomes empty. Strictly cosmetic.

[Adelheid]

Realistically a command grab is significantly better than an unblockable for the game I always tried to run with Tsubaki. It lacks the ability to do full combos to unblockable resets but I can live with that loss given everything else she's getting.

[BatousaiJ]

The higher the level the opponent and more match up experience they have, the more difficult it is to land an unblockable.

It's fun whooping newbies and average players with the unblockable but it's use was a bit limited against better opponents. Command grab on the other hand is just plainly good versus everyone so it's a fair trade off.

I'm sad to see it go if it is indeed going to be gone in the final version but we'll see how that works out since it seems you can still charge 22B/D so I don't think they're dead set on getting rid of unblockable just yet.

[Surf]

Like Errol mentioned before it looks like her command grab is very strong. A lot of the players on the bbs are talking about it. But it's a bit hard to understand exactly what their discussing

[BatousaiJ]

The real question is her follow up option after it.

Can you do anything after you land it? In midscreen, in corner?

If not, can you with the use of overdrive/RC and how good is the proration of it to make it worth while to overdrive/RC afterwards.

[Surf]

It's what I'm wondering as well. Can she RC it and continue into anything. Really wish we could see it in action to get a better idea. I'm hoping the proration is high. Command Grab > RC > Combo sounds pretty nice. On another note, their saying 623C is "scary"

[Airk]

"Realistically" a command grab has a LOT of variables that can make it run from "Crazy" to "useless" and without any knowledge of those, it's kinda silly to speculate. Also, command grabs can be kinda easier to upback out of than unblockables.

The real question is her follow up option after it.

Can you do anything after you land it? In midscreen, in corner?

If not, can you with the use of overdrive/RC and how good is the proration of it to make it worth while to overdrive/RC afterwards.

Isuna said it could be comboed out of in his latest post in news, but no info about where/for how much/what is required. The base damage kinda sounds like ass (960) so if you can't combo out of it, it'd pretty much be pointless.

Edit: It's weird that they would make our meterless DP the scary one. I wonder what 623D does then.

[Surf]

You seem to forget Hazama's command grab. While it's not used a very large amount and does pretty much no damage, it's very existence helps him. And with meter he can follow up with Houtenjin and get a nice junk of damage on you. Now that we know that the command grab can be RC'd, it makes me wonder how much damage can she get off of it once she has a decent amount of Install under her belt.

[BatousaiJ]

Hazama's command grab also has that awesome invulnerability to it too which I would love to have for ours but it's not essential.

[pktazn]

Info that Airk mentioned from the loketest thread:

System

• Overdrive: Lasts about 5 seconds on full health, last about 15 seconds with almost no health.
  
• Corner bounce: Instead of bouncing off the wall, they instead seem to be stuck to the wall for a little while and then fall straight to the ground. Seemed like it was harder to combo because of this.
  
• Menu: Menu is completely redesigned. Characters are positioned like asfaik they are in GG. When you select colour, you get to see in-game sprite instead of just rough colour selection.
  
• Design: Heat Guage is light blue 1~24, green 25~49, red 50~99 and yellow at 100. Rapid cancel looks like a red Faultless Defence.
  

Overdrives

Tsubaki: Some Install gain, but compared to Hakumen very slow.

Characters

Tsubaki: Dark Tsubaki is standard colour. Forward throw screen bounces. Seems to have a command throw that does about 960 damage and you can combo of. New super calls upon 8 blades to home in on opponent, but is not guaranteed to come out. If all 8 blades hit it is slightly less than 1600 damage. If all blades are blocked it gives long hitstun as they hit one after one other.

[Surf]

And here I was hoping the new super would do a fair amount of damage. Doesn't even exceed 2k. Forward throw buff is very much welcomed though.

[BatousaiJ]

Think of it as a utility DD that allows you to keep your opponent in hitstun and rush in.

Kind of like Rachel's where she throws animals at you and then rushes in for free pressure.

The start up is too slow to be really used as a full screen "gotcha" attack kind of like Jin's DD.

[Surf]

Hmm. I was thinking of utilizing it much like Rachels as well, but Rachels get wind back and the change to get free pressure from that super. Dont know exactly what the new supers properties are, but I'm kinda iffy on using 50 meter just to ensure pressure again. And with the 214x wallbound properties, I thought that 214x > Sword DD would connect.

[Zeromus_X]

Loss of unblockables is sad, but it looks like she's getting some interesting new tools and and actual DP for once and becoming less one-dimensional. Liking the sound of the blades super. Can use it for enough time to approach/mixup, or maybe even get some charge if the blockstun is that long.

[Adelheid]

"Realistically" a command grab has a LOT of variables that can make it run from "Crazy" to "useless" and without any knowledge of those, it's kinda silly to speculate. Also, command grabs can be kinda easier to upback out of than unblockables.

Realistically, a command grab you can combo off of is not strictly better, of course, but it makes her basic pressure much much stronger to have a throw they can't escape from. You can up back out of unblockables a LOT easier than command grabs if those unblockables take ~20 frames longer than the command grabs to execute.

[Surf]

Another thing I'm curious about is exactly how much range does the command grab have. Hopefully charge cancelling normals wont push us back too far for it to not connect

[BatousaiJ]

Hmm. I was thinking of utilizing it much like Rachels as well, but Rachels get wind back and the change to get free pressure from that super. Dont know exactly what the new supers properties are, but I'm kinda iffy on using 50 meter just to ensure pressure again. And with the 214x wallbound properties, I thought that 214x > Sword DD would connect.

It's match up specific in all honesty.

Would I spend 50 meter in order to get in on Ragna, Jin, Tager or Makoto? Most likely not.

Would I against Rachel, Arakune, Lambchops or Tao? Most definitely. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten in on a good Lambchops and they simply CA me away making me work for it all over again. Trying to bait that CA can let them get out for free as well so if you aren't on point.

After getting CA and I need to just get in on them again to finish them near the end of the round, I'd throw this DD out and run in on them while they're in block stun.

Utility wise for match ups, if it works the way I think it does, it's quite a great addition.

[Surf]

I suppose that makes the most sense

[Airk]

It's match up specific in all honesty.

Would I spend 50 meter in order to get in on Ragna, Jin, Tager or Makoto? Most likely not.

Would I against Rachel, Arakune, Lambchops or Tao? Most definitely. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten in on a good Lambchops and they simply CA me away making me work for it all over again. Trying to bait that CA can let them get out for free as well so if you aren't on point.

After getting CA and I need to just get in on them again to finish them near the end of the round, I'd throw this DD out and run in on them while they're in block stun.

Utility wise for match ups, if it works the way I think it does, it's quite a great addition.

And on the flip side, anything that can lock a character down to let you get in on them can also lock a character down to keep them AWAY; Useful on rushdown characters when you need a chance to charge.

Edit: Oh, and I don't forget Hazama's command grab, I just think it's pretty garbage now that it's only throw invulnerable. It does have theoretical applications, but in practice, I think you could remove it entirely and most Hazama matches would be completely unchanged. I guess it'd be hilarious to countergrab a GTB/GETB with it though. :P Actually, when you come right down to it, command grabs are a super mixed bag in this game - most people seem to think Platinum's pretty much sucks too. Valk's is kinda mean though.

[Errol]

On another note, their saying 623C is "scary"

Where are you seeing that? I haven't seen that, skimming through.

[Zeromus_X]

So just to confirm, is Tsubaki's mugen Overdrive-exclusive now? It looks like the command for it is still on her command list, but I was under the impression that all characters that had "Install" distortions had them moved to their Overdrives.

Also wondering if 3C and 6A are still FCs, and if 3CC still has bonus proration.

[BatousaiJ]

The threat of an option is oftentimes more deadly than actually landing the thing.

If you condition you opponent to be afraid of your command grab and have them either mashing or up backing all the time, they become rather free to frame traps and the like which in turn you could do even more damage than had you landed the command grab.

If they aren't afraid of the grab, you use it until they are and so it goes on. Also, I'd disagree on the whole "I think you could remove it entirely and most Hazama matches would be completely unchanged." because that's plainly flawed.

That would not only change the way a high level Haz player adept at using all of his tools would approach pressure but the way his opponent guards and looks for holes in the pressure to escape from.

So just to confirm, is Tsubaki's mugen Overdrive-exclusive now? It looks like the command for it is still on her command list, but I was under the impression that all characters that had "Install" distortions had them moved to their Overdrives.

I hope not, having to double dip two utilities overdrive/50 meter to activate Mugen would limit its utility quite a bit since overdrive has a duration and so does Mugen and given the best point of overdrive is the native charge generation, that would be gone during Mugen too. Unless they made the rewards something insane, I'd say that's probably not how it's used.

[Surf]

The threat of an option is oftentimes more deadly than actually landing the thing.

This. Which is why I said it's very existence alone helps Hazama. Just like 22D unblockable, even if you dont use it much personally. Just having that option will have your opponent act in different ways in each given situation.

And Errol, I saw it earlier today. I'm trying to look for it again right now.

[pktazn]

So just to confirm, is Tsubaki's mugen Overdrive-exclusive now? It looks like the command for it is still on her command list, but I was under the impression that all characters that had "Install" distortions had them moved to their Overdrives.

Tsubaki Mugen it seems can be activated any time. From what I understood, her Overdrive is that when it's activated her Install gauge goes up automatically like Hakumen's Magatama meter but not as fast.

Ragna's Blood Kain was completely removed from his Distortions list and listed as his Overdrive while Tsubaki's Mugen is still listed under it.

[Airk]

Yeah; Definitely looks like Tsubaki Install is still a 'standard' DD for Tsubaki - it's pretty clear for the characters who had a 'mode' moved to Overdrive have their Overdrive clearly labelled as such - Furinkazan, AB2, etc. Note that Original Flavor Mugen (aka "real Mugen" aka "Hakumen's Mugen") is NOT his Overdrive either.