[CP] Carl Clover Loketest Changes and Discussions Thread

[Akira-Shiro]

Ahh almost forgot hes right,, you only get one burst basically.. You can never use 2 at once in this version. Making us all the more dangerous

[Afro-Demon]

No, I actually like this a whole lot more. I can USE it. No more opponents literally flying away from the explosion.

I'll agree that it's nice to have a more practical astral, but I so would have loved to see Deus Ex Machina buffed in a way to be usable instead. Like, the countdown was fine, but the hitbox needed to be bigger. like a 1.15 screen diameter. Sure, characters like Haz, Tao, and Rachel would never get hit by it, but everyone else would've had the ultimate footsie game of death with carl. Even without a guarantee kill, that's a lot more fun than...

Am I comboing them > do I have the meter > do I need to bait a burst > win.

edit: I'm pretty sure it takes 70 counts to use burst again after you've used it once in CP. Not all matches will have it, but Rachel's could likely take advantage of two bursts if they're caught once early on.

[Akira-Shiro]

So uhh yea about our S-tier.. im sorry TOP-TIER Cawk raping the rest of the cast... cause from the looks of it everyone is struggling to get 4k midscreen with 50 while were bussing out 6k's back to back + godlike oki >.>

[JG]

We have oki that rivals that of our old 'force standing' 3D (Dont have in EX)

I don't think that Carl in BBEXT have bad oki, fuooco is pretty good because it pick the opponent off the floor. This is very useful against people that delay his tech. If fuooco land, you can go into a mixup or oki without problems. Maybe this move isnt as good as CS2 3]D[ but still very useful.

The problem with Carl oki, is that isn't something almost 100% guarantee like CS2 3]D[. But if we alternate ours moves: 8]D[, Brio, 4]D[, 2]D[, 6]D[, Volante, with a higth/low Carl attack we get a good oki/mixup.

We have 6k combos while in CON position that have 100% oki enders. (Dont have in EX)

??? Carl already can do 6k or more dmg combos in CON like J2.C~Allecancel,5C, volante,..... j2.C Allecancel, 4D, etc, etc into Gear super + 8]D[, resulting into a combo that end in oki, even with cantabille we can get 5K/6K that lead us to oki. Also in the corner, our combos are very good thank to the full charge 6C and 6]D[ that force wallbounce and you can pick up with 5C, j.B, j2.C.

Ending any damaging combo, in the corner, with Gear super + j.C = Good oki/mixup/ make the opponent cry! xD

Our oki combo ends us back in oki. (Dont have in EX)

In BBEXT we have this, thank to j.C. Also, i think is very probably that Carl oki is going to be worse in CP, because you can´t solo combo cantabille anymore. So no more, cantabille, teleport, 2]D[ into some combo that end in 8]D[ or j.C, oki.

An the iceing on the cake is that we have better air hitconfirms thanks to out jc>j2c link added (Dont have in EX)

Mmmm..... i agree on that, but i think that extended Carl have good or decent air hitconfirms. On the other side, our ground hitconfirm isn't so good especially when 5C doesn't fatal counter anymore.

An you top it all of with a combo'able astral like everyone else........

This! is a good change, somehow in my case... i just don't care about the astral. I'm more happy executioning long combos or hard stuff in matches >_<

An the oki im talking about is 6D oki ender,, in EX we have to settle for sum bitch made combo that still puts us back at NCO position. Not only that if we hit people in the air with like Ja or something random an ada isnt around then we have to settle with a quick jc.

Hey! but what about: j.a, j.B, j2.C, j.C? or j.a, j.a, j.a, j.B, j.C? and telleporting Nirvana after this? i don't think that doing this after an air hitconfirm is so hard.

An the price we paid was that we lost our loop... im going to be perfectly honest with you. I dont do the loop,,, like ever. I learned it in the begining of EX an never bothered using it so i lost it.. an didnt really care about re-learning it. All iv ever wanted was for our character to be legit.. Looping people with UB's doesnt really sound all that legit. Now be it that while the loop was included in our match-ups why is it we were only A-tier.

Im sorry how shitty does a character have to be that he is only A-tier an if he touches you yoo die......... I want oki, damage, actual hitconfirms, and decent normals... i would have traded my soul for it, an im aware we have all the things i named,, however they wernt that good. Our oki should have always been on rachels level but here it is CP an we are just now getting it.

I think that Carl is A tier with or without UB loop. Doing the UB loop here is just an option, is not like an obligation in comparison to CS2. Yes! you can argue that the UB loop still is very strong here, but even so doing other thing can deal similar result. A lot japanase Carl top player doesn't use it, because from a mixup or reset you get more dmg and consume less nirvana.

You can check Ryuusei, Akechi Kokoro, Ranrero, etc, etc... they go for the oki.

If im not wrong, the mayoralty of Carls players on BBRevo didn't use the UB loop. Kyaku is the one that tend to use it more.

For me, i love BBEXT Carl. Carl in this ver have option for almost any case. If you want oki/mixup/reset? fine! do it and you can end it into another oki/mixup/reset, if you want damaging combos? fine! learn some combos because there is a good banch of them, if you want UB? fine! you have UB, even UB that work against Hakumen, if you want solo combos? fine! use cantabille + rapid cancel, dashcancel or IAD j2.C allecante + attack that end into cantabile, juggle the opponent! be happy >_<

You can choose from a good batch of option with Carl EXT ver.... Its just a matter of research and know what you want to do with the character. That is the reason why i think until now extended Carl is the most complete and the best one.

Im not saying that what are you telling is wrong or bad, is just... i dont think that Carl is like that in EXT. I think that is a more complete.

Funy thing, that in CS2 the almost all the top Carl playerd use the UB loop and in BBEXT just a couple tend to use it.

If you ask me, i would love that in CP you cant still do the j.B + 3]D[ UB and go into a dmg combo.

[Afro-Demon]

We still do have the unblockable, it just doesn't loop anymore because 3]D[ forces knockdown. And the knockdown last I knew is still hard enough to combo off of. Which I'm ok with. I never really learned the loop.

I still don't mind the cantabile change that much. We'd get guaranteed sandwich off it anyway because lol 46]D[. I'm more concerned that they keep taking away things with invincibility. First we lose some 6A head invincibility frames in Extend, now we lose our Vivace a projectile invuln.? I would really like one of these back please.

And JG, it's not that we didn't have good oki. He's saying that we didn't have oki that lead to any REAL SOVIET damage. I wouldn't know. I haven't played even 7 hours of it because I didn't want to buy it for just one character :p

Also, concerning guaranteed extend oki, didn't we have that j.5C>5C+fuoco thing that covered every possible scenario and would always either net us pressure or a combo? That's some pretty Daisharin oki right there....still not rachel level though hahaha. that stuff is made of legends.

[Rishtopher]

I'll agree that it's nice to have a more practical astral, but I so would have loved to see Deus Ex Machina buffed in a way to be usable instead. Like, the countdown was fine, but the hitbox needed to be bigger. like a 1.15 screen diameter. Sure, characters like Haz, Tao, and Rachel would never get hit by it, but everyone else would've had the ultimate footsie game of death with carl. Even without a guarantee kill, that's a lot more fun than...

Am I comboing them > do I have the meter > do I need to bait a burst > win.

[Akira-Shiro]

Carl still has solo combos, however they are only doable in the corner. Our 2c and allegreto both cause wall bound

[Rishtopher]

Carl still has solo combos, however they are only doable in the corner. Our 2c and allegreto both cause wall bound

[Akira-Shiro]

I don't think that Carl in BBEXT have bad oki, fuooco is pretty good because it pick the opponent off the floor. This is very useful against people that delay his tech. If fuooco land, you can go into a mixup or oki without problems. Maybe this move isnt as good as CS2 3]D[ but still very useful.

The problem with Carl oki, is that isn't something almost 100% guarantee like CS2 3]D[. But if we alternate ours moves: 8]D[, Brio, 4]D[, 2]D[, 6]D[, Volante, with a higth/low Carl attack we get a good oki/mixup.

The fuacco setup wasnt a reliable one, if a person delays roll they avoid the fuacco completely, it didnt work off an 8D ender and that itself is what made it so bad. It could only work off a 2D ender which would require us to use two 2D's in one combo, we would have to spend extra meter(To much extra) just to get a proper oki ender. If preformed off of anything but a 2D ender then they would always be to close to actually connect fuacco an they could delay roll out for free. An unfortunately when playing carl alot of adas meter is used in trying to just catch the opponent so that when you finally do get them spending extra meter on that second 2D just to end a combo to get oki really isnt as reliable as one would hope. AN it is because we need that huge gap that makes it noticeable. If we were to get oki and be very close delay roll beats everything except 6D, and delay beats everything period but they are forced to block the 6D so setting up UB's on wake-up really isnt worth it because a delay neutral tech is all you need to stuff carls attempts.

??? Carl already can do 6k or more dmg combos in CON like J2.C~Allecancel,5C, volante,..... j2.C Allecancel, 4D, etc, etc into Gear super + 8]D[, resulting into a combo that end in oki, even with cantabille we can get 5K/6K that lead us to oki. Also in the corner, our combos are very good thank to the full charge 6C and 6]D[ that force wallbounce and you can pick up with 5C, j.B, j2.C.

Ending any damaging combo, in the corner, with Gear super + j.C = Good oki/mixup/ make the opponent cry! xD

Yes i know we have always had amazing damage however all of the cast (Minus Carl & Relius) had a midscreen damage nerf hard. Most people in CP are having a hard time getting 4k with 50heat midscreen in CP. Not only did we get an amazing new oki tool but we didnt lose our damage midscreen. I only say that to reassure people. An yes im also aware that the only time we get legit oki is in the corner but now we get that everywhere and the corner and we still have amazing damage.

In BBEXT we have this, thank to j.C. Also, i think is very probably that Carl oki is going to be worse in CP, because you can´t solo combo cantabille anymore. So no more, cantabille, teleport, 2]D[ into some combo that end in 8]D[ or j.C, oki.

JG when i say oki i mean the options that we have that force an opponent to neutral tech and block on wake-up. SO yes when carl is by himself he has almost no options, an with this new cantabile we can no longer preform a teleport combo but that does not mean we lose oki. Cantabile they cannot tech till they hit the ground, so its still can be use for its KD ability.

5b>6b>cantabile>22D>236a is automatic sandwich and you can do a 6D for oki to stop them from rolling so im actually very excited for this new option. But like i said when i say oki i mean 'our ability to force them to neutral tech & block'

Mmmm..... i agree on that, but i think that extended Carl have good or decent air hitconfirms. On the other side, our ground hitconfirm isn't so good especially when 5C doesn't fatal counter anymore.Hey! but what about: j.a, j.B, j2.C, j.C? or j.a, j.a, j.a, j.B, j.C? and telleporting Nirvana after this? i don't think that doing this after an air hitconfirm is so hard.

In EX we could only get about 1.5k from a random air hit and our j2c would not hit if they were to high so we would need to jump cancel IF we still had it and didnt use it already an no ur right doing that is not hard but what do we get from that cause its not oki a delay forward roll will stuff any oki attempt from a jc 22D vivace ender. Because you did vivace even if 6D were fast enough to hit them you are to far to combo because of how fast they will tech from a 6D roll stuff. An iv never cared for the lost of our 5c stagger loss, i IAD jb regardless of what happened, if the 5c was blocked then i cant IAD, if it was a CH then jb>jc will combo and if it was a clean hit then i get free pressure. So autopiloting with a IAD has been fairly safe and reliable.

This! is a good change, somehow in my case... i just don't care about the astral. I'm more happy executioning long combos or hard stuff in matches >_<

I think that Carl is A tier with or without UB loop. Doing the UB loop here is just an option, is not like an obligation in comparison to CS2. Yes! you can argue that the UB loop still is very strong here, but even so doing other thing can deal similar result. A lot japanase Carl top player doesn't use it, because from a mixup or reset you get more dmg and consume less nirvana.

You can check Ryuusei, Akechi Kokoro, Ranrero, etc, etc... they go for the oki.

If im not wrong, the mayoralty of Carls players on BBRevo didn't use the UB loop. Kyaku is the one that tend to use it more.

JG you and i had a debate in the Relius vs Carl thread where we had a disagreement on the matchup, now the conclusion was that once we catch him we can loop him to death even if he bursted we just need to catch him again to kill him. Now based off that logic then yes the matchup is 5.5-4.5 our favor maybe even 6-4. But without it if we were to be using regular combos then at the end of every combo we would end up returning to neutral without it. It would basically be impossible for carl to still be A-tier if you were to remove his loop based on how he is now. Sure we always get a good 4k~5k depending on the situation and 6k if we use 100heat if not then the only time we get 6k is from a DP punish aka CH J2c allecan or CH 3c. Because if we arnt killing them the moment we touch them it makes things easier for anyone who is fighting carl. Cause you have to factor in that sometimes when you hit the enemy its with something that isnt that good aka 2a/2B/ja in most situations you would not be getting 4k without heat, however in terms of the UB loop/reset it dont matter what you hit them with its death. So i would seriously have to disagree with you on carl still being A-tier without his loop.

An JG i wish you would refrain from you Kyako and the rest of the JP carls when talking about how good he is. Cause like i said before half of the people they are fighting dont know how to fight carl. An when it comes to learning how to fight carl im talking about more then just knowing how to space him properly. Majority of the people in Jp know how to space carl very well however once they get caught they dont know what the fuck they should be doing and almost always they do something stupid and end up dieing because of it. They know how to fight carl from neutral however once they get caught they die due to stupidity. Because without the reset/loop carl isnt as strong as one would hope. Its like fighting Tager, sure you can zone him for free, but thats only have the battle. If you do not know tagers gimmick setups they you will die the moment he catches you regardless of how well you were doing for the first have. An most people end up losing to tager because once he catches them they dont know how to 'defend' against hi,. This same thing applies to carl, very few people know what to do o once we get them blocking, nore do they know what to look for. Im not saying carl isnt good, but all of his stuff you can react to stopping no guessing required, its why i said carl has alot of gimmicks because once you know what to look for,, getting out is free.

For me, i love BBEXT Carl. Carl in this ver have option for almost any case. If you want oki/mixup/reset? fine! do it and you can end it into another oki/mixup/reset, if you want damaging combos? fine! learn some combos because there is a good banch of them, if you want UB? fine! you have UB, even UB that work against Hakumen, if you want solo combos? fine! use cantabille + rapid cancel, dashcancel or IAD j2.C allecante + attack that end into cantabile, juggle the opponent! be happy >_<

You can choose from a good batch of option with Carl EXT ver.... Its just a matter of research and know what you want to do with the character. That is the reason why i think until now extended Carl is the most complete and the best one.

I would have to disagree with you on this, in EX if i wanted combos into oki an i mean legit oki. But this wasnt possible because of the way im using carl. I spend alot of meter just trying to catch the opponent that by the time i finally get them Ada is at about 40% now doing a combo is an option yes. However using a second 2D in my combos just to get proper fuacco oki was impossible or ada would die due to the multiplication cost on her. An even if i were to cut her off cause i usually do im still lacking the hp to preform another combo into the same oki ender. With oki comes a loss of alot of adas Hp because your using fuacco which cost the most out of all her moves iirc which means that it is almost impossible to play the way i want to due to how much damage Ada takes when getting hit. I would and actually do allow people to roll away just because my bitch need more hp. My style of play is in-effective due to how carl is. His oki off an 8D ender is ass. U can react and make your decision accordingly,, most people just dont know that.. You name any NONE 2D ender combo + Oki setup and i can tell you how to get out.

Im not saying that what are you telling is wrong or bad, is just... i dont think that Carl is like that in EXT. I think that is a more complete.

Funy thing, that in CS2 the almost all the top Carl playerd use the UB loop and in BBEXT just a couple tend to use it.

If you ask me, i would love that in CP you cant still do the j.B + 3]D[ UB and go into a dmg combo.

Once again the top players fight people who dont know how to block/hander carl once he catches you.. thats not my fault. For the simple fact that getting out is a possibility and its a practical possibility it makes me upset when i see people get hit. YOU NEVER NEUTRAL TECH AGAINST CARL <<<< this is a fact neutral teching will get you killed extremely fast.

[Akira-Shiro]

Its not that your bad so stop dowing on yourself, its just a gattling we never had a use for so why would you remember... but we have 6B>2C (Now wall bounds) and 6b>6A(launches on ground hit) both of these will serve and prove to be useful in the next installment im sure. Cause as of now 2c is completely useless =/

[Afro-Demon]

Cause as of now 2c is completely useless =/

[Akira-Shiro]

Ahh i actually did forget all about this tbh.

Edit-

Oh i almost forgot, 2c vivace-A ja wont combo.. 2c lost a lot of its hitstun in this version..... im assuming it was to remove solo hitconfirms...

[Afro-Demon]

I know 2C vivace>jA won't combo. It's like a frame or two from getting there. I thought for awhile that doing 6A instead might've been faster, but I just looked at the frame data and it's slower by two frames. unless that's changed, which is still possible, we can't get damage without nirvana.

[ForgoneMoose]

The new 2C interests me.

Maybe it will be possible to do j.B > Allecan > 2C to get the wall bound mid-combo?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=__vHFxZlcYg&feature=youtu.be#t=0m38s

Then again, I don't know how useful that would even be even if it were possible, and the Cantabile nerf kinda puts a damper on the whole idea.

Worth trying at least, I suppose.

[Afro-Demon]

@Forgone

If you wanted to do that combo anyway, why would you cantabile? You're saying it as if you're already at the corner. just 6B>2C>5C>j.B>j.2C>j.214C>2C. That's probably how Carl would go in the corner without nee-san.

Edit: That combo though did give me a decent thing to look at for though. 5C>j.B>j.2C>22]D[>j.C>j.2C>2]D[ (wind up)>j.214C>5C>2]D[ (hit)>... sounds pretty awesome if it works.

[Psykotik]

The fuacco setup wasnt a reliable one, if a person delays roll they avoid the fuacco completely

You should be using 5C in conjunction with the fuoco to beat out delayed techs or rolls.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn0vNh06Fcs#t=1m44s

[Akira-Shiro]

If you take a look at that combo you will notice how they use 2D a second time... an i already said that its good but only off of a 2D distance. If they are close (like 8D enders are) then fucco will come out and yes the 5C will hit, however they will still make it past ada and put you in CNO position. This becomes a problem because ada acts like a brick wall so trying to IAD towards them becomes a proble because ada wont get the hell out the way. However this is only if they are stupid enough to roll. At every distance excluding the 2D ender distance they can just delay neutral tech which will make the 5c whiff and the fuacco will probably go past them. Infact even if they are at the proper distance after 2D ender fuacco delay Neutral tech blows all our options right out the window.

If it is delayed then the 5c will whiff, and only the last 2 hits of fuacco will connect making it a easy ass get away. They will return to neutral and be able to hit ada just for good measure. Like is said before our oki just isnt that good. Only idiots tech instantly against carl, and if you pay attention to the video this carl does not show a setup to stop the delay neutral tech =/ because there is nothing we can do.

At super close range forward roll beats this setup

Medium distance backwards roll beats the setup

Proper distance (2D ender) delay neutral beat the setup

All of these resulting them returning to neutral, hitting ada, or worse... both =/ our oki is trash

Ok so i found out that replacing 5c with the 3c will make the backwards tech a impossible option, however if they neutral and mash buttons.... ur so hit lol fraudulent

[Psykotik]

If you take a look at that combo you will notice how they use 2D a second time... an i already said that its good but only off of a 2D distance.

Depending on when/how you hit your opponent with 8D, you have time to make an adjustment to Carl and Ada's spacing since Ada recovers relatively quickly after 8D especially after a 2-hit 8D ender.

If they are close (like 8D enders are) then fucco will come out and yes the 5C will hit, however they will still make it past ada and put you in CNO position. This becomes a problem because ada acts like a brick wall so trying to IAD towards them becomes a proble because ada wont get the hell out the way.

See above.

if you pay attention to the video this carl does not show a setup to stop the delay neutral tech =/ because there is nothing we can do.

Watch the video again. Delayed neutral tech (at the right distance) doesn't work; Even with a little delay, you still have to block Ada. Delay too much, proration resets and 5C picks them up. I acknowledge that Carl's oki isn't exactly air-tight but it's not trash. It's still a lot better than what most of the cast has.

[Akira-Shiro]

Watch the video again. Delayed neutral tech (at the right distance) doesn't work; Even with a little delay, you still have to block Ada. Delay too much, proration resets and 5C picks them up. I acknowledge that Carl's oki isn't exactly air-tight but it's not trash. It's still a lot better than what most of the cast has.

Ada can be re-positioned yes, but once again its still not good the 5c will whiff and they will be hit by the last few hits of fuacco and they can still get out for free due to the recovery on 5c and how little the hitstun is on fuacco. An no the rest of the cast generally have very good oki,

Tager forces standing

ragna forces standing

Bang has free pressure (On KD bang can 2a>5b iirc. If you roll the 2a 5b catches if you neutral 2a whiffs and the 5b wont come out allowing bang to do a tk JD just incase they wish to bait DP)

Rachel... lol its rachel must i explain

litchi.... lol litchi..

Tsubaki has her 3c/6a ender

Jin has 2b>5b same effects as Bangs,

Valk is Valk fuck oki see me at neutral (He profits from returning to neutral)

Tao also profits from neutral instead of oki.

Uhh Mu-12 has her 3c>5D>214D>2b ender corner only,

Lambda has 214D/236D,

Plat has bubble,

Makoto has 2a>2a>5b(Same as bangs and Jins)

Hazama has 2a>2c(Like jins) & reverse hotenji roll bait in the corner

So it would seem that only Haku & Ara really lack oki.. and they are both equally fradulent so im not seeing how we are on the latter of this pole. Every character i named they can all do this exact same thing on KD and it stops both rolls and keeps pressure if they dont roll sure we have it to but its i dont want to say situational but we dont get it off hitconfrims. An albeit it is probable,, its just to not always a possibility. An im not speaking from experience its just that i dont like how the possibility is there, and because delay neutral>block>return to neutral is there that pisses me off. AN 6D is our best option because regardless of how close they are to ada they cannot roll through this move. However doing this roll punish takes them out of the roll. Its why im so excited for the new 6D well this carl in general, this 6D oki truly is just as good as our 3D oki from CS1. If they neutral they are foced to block if they delay neutral they still have to block because of how long 6D is active and if they roll they take 5k + oki right back into the exact same situation. An once we have them blocking and they are forced to neutral, thats when we begin the UB fraudulence that is carl

[Psykotik]

How will the 5C whiff if you reposition Ada? It's not like you can't reposition Carl or anything. Even if they do delay the tech and get hit by fuoco, you can pick them up and get another knockdown from it. The fuoco setup does have a degree of flexibility, it's not like to have to use the exact same timings over and over.

Most of the examples you named can force neutral tech but they don't necessarily force respect on the opponent; they would have to go out their way to beat out a DP. Rachel, Litchi, Plat, Lambda and Mu (in the corner) are the only exceptions. The fuoco setup can actually force neutral tech and make the opponent block. Again, it's not an end-all solution since there are holes in it but I still highly disagree with Carl having bad oki considering how many different things he can do on knockdown.

I have the feeling that we're looking at the setup from completely different angles here. Maybe you could show me a video of what you're talking about? From my personal experience and from what I've watched, the fuoco setup can work more often than you say it does.

[Afro-Demon]

Actually, Tager doesn't have to work too hard at beating a DP from Gadget. It's all about if you predict it. I stuff Rag's ID with GF>360B. It does purple throw, so it will at WORST return you to neutral, while if they did go for the DP attempt they'll throw reject miss and take an easy 4-5K. Again, all about predictions. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but if I'm right, you're dead.

Haku actually has some option select oki in the corner when he ends an air combo with 5C. It's 2B>6A/2C. 2B will catch any rolls and if you time it right, even if they neutral tech you won't throw out the next move if you whiff the 2B. It's really nice. Not airtight, but hey, not everyone should have airtight oki.

As for the Carl spacing on the 5C fuoco setup, I don't find my self having too much trouble getting the correct spacing. air combo>j.C>8D> to get knockdown, back dash twice because they are still in the air, walk for like 2 feet while holding nirvana to get her in position, then you have roughly the same spacing as 2D ender. gives the right spacing on most characters except for Tager because he hits 8D so dang early.

Though I will say one thing. Although Psykotik is right in that the setup isn't too difficult to establish, the thing Akira I think is trying to point out is from this oki, we can't capitalize too harshly on them with it. At most if you do everything right maybe 2.7K because takes too long recovering from fuoco. Akira is saying in CP we have better damage off our oki to even reach some similar numbers to our regular CON combos.

[Akira-Shiro]

Oh well you actually beat me to it Afro. While im saying that the oki is there its just not as good in comparison to the rest of the cast.. an going in to punishes cant really factor in because if you want to do that a DP will beat Carls options because the retarded hitbox on the 5c we will get hit.. the fuacco doesnt stop the DP =/ you will get hit. An now that i think about it even if you do block because fuacco is already active. At the most your getting about 2.5k from a DP punish =/ that sounds low tier.

An unfortunately id have to disagree with you on how other characters who force block im going to exclude Rachel, Litchi, Taget, and Ragna because we already know how godlike their oki is. But Mu-12's setup puts them out of most Dp ranges (except inferno divider) and yes if you do not tech you get reseted, 3C 5d 214D they wake up into a meaty explosion which by the time the 5d 214d is done you can see if they neutraled or not and automatically do 2b>6a. The 2b will whiff on a delay tech so the 6a wont come out. As for A-11 she just doesnt care, you are way to far to do much of anything on wake up. I could go down the list of why each characters oki is full proof so instead ill tell you whose isnt.

Jins can be Dp'ed

Makoto

Tsubaki

Haz

however the Dp safeness doesnt make a persons oki less valuable, that is why wake-up Dp's isnt really talked about much. Its your job as the one playing to be able to make effective reads on the opponent that is not Haz, Tsu's, Jin's, or Makotos fault its yours as a player. They did their job, and that was force the enemy to neutral tech. An the primary reason i hate carls oki is cause we lose mixup =/ our oki setup is entirely to obvious, when it happens they just delay neutral and block for a free get away. However all the other members of the cast force the neutral and are allowed mixup game in exchange for being susceptible to DPs we lose Mixup completely and gain Dp safeness. An for what due to Adas recovery we are foced to do fraudulent mixup in hopes of being able to get in.. I sorry id perfer the wake-up mixup then the force blocking for shitty solo carl mixup =/ im just not seeing it as all that good.

AN i just realised we are getting way off topic here lol in our luxurious conversation we both seemed to have forgotten the name of this thread.. so for now ill rest my case with yes carl has oki however i do not believe it is as effective as the rest of the cast. In EX it is so much better due to it forcing block on wakeup/delay neutral, stopping all rolls of any kind, not meter consuming (fuacco cost the most out of all our moves), we get great damage if they roll, and the puish combo ends up back in CON position all of which makes me a very happy camper ^-^

[Afro-Demon]

Mu just got confirmed for CP. I'm pretty that's relevant in the amount of a b$%^ that matchup is.

[Psykotik]

I guess we could agree to disagree. I still stand by my view but your reasons for disliking Carl's oki are agreeable.

Now then, please enlighten me on why Carl gets better oki in this one. I haven't been keeping up with the changes and if you say that this rivals our CS2 3D then Carl must've gained something really good.

[TD]

l think he explained already. 6d covers back rolls and delayed/non delayed neutral tech, if they roll the new properties of 6d will allow for a big combo. if they neutral/ delay neutral 6d will still meaty. since carl is still free to do whatever, forward rolls and dp's shouldnt be too much of an issue either (5c stuffing forward rolls is a very basic example here)