[P4A] Kanji vs. Mitsuru: Her coat's better. :<

[Circuitous]

Her kick's better, too.

~Axis edit the sequel~

Mitsuru is a tough customer, she has fast pokes, a really fast charge special that she can do anytime on the ground, obnoxious hitboxes, and a very heavy hitter.

Needless to say she is dangerous when she gets her way but look at the bright side, her frame traps aren't so bad against us since she can't safe poke our DP. (lol yosuke)

Full screen: Not too comfortable range but not the worst, you don't have anything too safe at this range, she can use her D attacks to whip you in or just hit you for a good 3k damage for not blocking it.

If Mitsuru charges B coup you can actually j.214B her you just need to jump and gauge the range.

Mid screen: Really hard range to win at but a good read her puts the match in your favor, sweep goes under her 5A but you gotta do it early. (sweep is 13F her 5A is 7F and you are considered airborne during the early parts of it.) otherwise play the spacing game and make a read, remember do not do anything that has too big a start up at this range.

Coup will keep you in check.

Close range: On the offense you have so much power over her, Her R-action can be called out and punished before she can bufudyne, even if she uses bufudyne just roll during flash and kill her.

Your R-action also defeats her R action too, something she has to keep in mind.

When defending against her Mitsuru is a frame trap character, her charged B attack beats grabs but not your DP.

When she slides in then she is doing sweep.

The only time sweep is safe is when she uses a charged B attack before it otherwise command grab her or IB punish the sweep. (yes sweep is mad punishable)

Fun stuff:

Coup is unsafe on block point blank so press 5A, if she jumps back she gets caught on start up, if she tries to poke it loses to your 5A and if you IB it then she is free to a command grab, this gets you around bad Mitsuru's and punishes a good one on occasion.

you can beat 5D with j.214B/A+B depending on positioning but you gotta be fast on it.

You can roll behind her bufudyne.

Optimal DP Punish is 2C but it's really tight, use 5C or 2B for the punish, if you roll bufudyne then you can still punish with command grab.

If you don't want her to use meter after her R-action then punish her with 5A or 2B before she touches the ground.

Your persona loses to 5A, j.A and coup droit for free.

Feeling bad.

Yes I hate this match up.

I am gonna edit this when I wake up.

[Koopa_Klawz]

I'm completely lost at this match up.

All her pokes pretty much beat all of mine, her drill and persona whip will pretty make me stop doing anything from a distance away, and her fucking pressure keeps me from pressing anything (even B+D). I can only win this match up if I can outread my opponent or if I get a lucky hit in.

Seriously Circ, can I have an avy like that except with Mitsuru in there?

[Siefer]

This is a pretty bad match-up. The only viable Persona attack at neutral are the Ds, but only at mid or far range, and even that requires some yomi or catching them in their recovery animation. All of her buttons beat yours, your only other viable attack is j.B, but it has to be spaced well. Uh, if you can knock her down, get the most out of it and hope for the best, that's pretty much all you can do. You need to capitalize on her mistakes and get the most out of wakeup games, which is a lot harder than it sounds.

EDIT: There is a nifty trick I saw Lich do against LK though. If you predict that they will DP and then Bufudyne right after, you can 214D. 214D will go right through Bufudyne, recover before Mitsuru does, and you have enough time for a 5B CH. If you time it just right, you can just have the 214D catch Mitsuru in recovery frames and go from there. The trick for the latter involves slightly delaying the 214D.

[sinder]

this matchup requires a lot of patience, and you do have to make EVERY attack count, which is why the match can be cruel sometimes

if you shock her, there really isnt much you can do from what ive seen, which is pretty sad

[A.X.I.S.]

I hope you guys know what a 90 degree angle is.

Because that's the angle you should not be jumping in on her.

[Osuna]

I hope you guys know what a 90 degree angle is.

Because that's the angle you should not be jumping in on her.

A 90 degree angle would be straight up. I'm pretty sure she can anti air us from more angles than straight up. Unless you meant to say anywhere in a 90 degree angle which would be anywhere in front of her.

[A.X.I.S.]

The second part.

Just don't be blatant with the jump in's I ate things I regret eating.

[Siefer]

You can actually space yourself where you can hit her out of 2B with a j.B as long as the chair is smacking her arm. Uh, otherwise, yea, anywhere else in front of Mitsuru isn't a good idea...

[Coren]

I like to keep my fingers over B+D at fullscreen range to DP any fullscreen coup on reaction.

Instant blocking is really important to create grab out chances during her close range corner strings. Don't try to randomly DP through pressure, it's really baitable with backdash or jumpcancels.

Being able to get in on mits seems to center around how well you can bait out and punish 2B anti-air attempts. Yomi double jump into j.C is the hotness as getting FC'd out of 2B will make her second guess any braindead 2B AA attempts.

[Henaki]

if mitsuru does dp~super:

2a just as she lands, if she does bufudyne, it will whiff and you can do 2b ch 5c etc. only works if she lands next to you. if 2a hits you do 2a, 5a, 5b, 2b, ex grab or grab, does a little less damage than the typical guaranteed followup (5a ch 5c etc)

i dont think this works if she does pradakick instead of bufudyne, forgot to check. probably doesnt.

its a LITTLE extra ammo, not a lot, but hey, option selects are fucking cool.

[A.X.I.S.]

Added match up stuff to first post.

[A.X.I.S.]

Edited first post for Mitsuru.

[Omex]

Her kick's better, too.

~Axis edit the sequel~

When defending against her Mitsuru is a frame trap character, her charged B attack beats grabs but not your DP.

Actually, charged B and uncharged B have the same amount of airborne frames, ie, if she charges it she has an extra ~20? frames where she's grab vuln. Pretty sure the full mook confirms this + shardz getting mad at it in person a few times. Pretty sure if you see her going for charges you can respond with a well timed grab or 214214C at the very least.

[A.X.I.S.]

Yeah but she can still move away from grab range with it and it's not that much slower than her normal 5B.

If you can 214214C then that is something worth looking into.

I rarely use the move because of the fact I have to be in awakening to do it and am normally looking for other ways to kill.

[Omex]

just a few updates from before-

214214C does in fact grab charged B, and mitsus who don't know better and use 6B over 5/4B for charged B vs kanji can be grabbed out of the end of it. If they're using 4B to get away though, it might not grab that well at all.

Sweeping to beat her 5A is a pretty bad idea even if it does low profile it barely, as she can potentially have hit 5B instead which has crazy foot invuln, hitting kanji with a FC starter. :V

A big thing to beating her pressure is to understand how her strings and sweep work. 5B is amazing for her because it sets up her damage on FC, has foot invuln and some airborne frames, and more importantly, when charged it gives a lot of + frames instead of -. If 5B is fully charged, her sweep is safe-The feint is 100% covered and ends at neutral to kanji, and charged 5c sweep is a legit blockstring. The only way you can punish that sweep is on IB as well, and if she cancels it into droit it can be more annoying to punish. :V

so, yeah- uncharged b = DP the sweep or grab the feint. charged B get ready for 5B/Grab/jump b/etc after the feint sweep (if she's going for J.B, 5A can beat her jump startup frames, DP 5B, 214214c/236236A/dp [5]B, either 214C her grab attempt if ballsy or just pray and tech). Careful for troit after sweep on block as well. Try to DP the charged Bs smartly, but be careful since getting baited/etc is easily 5k+ on reaction. 236236A/B is also a decent option, 2.8k on CH and 5k+ with OMC on third hit.

if they're sitting full/halfscreen away from you, crouchblocking and waiting for you to come to them, harassing with with troits/whips, best thing to do is punish each whip situationally (like 5D horizontal has a deadzone in front of her, can probably 5C it if you stay in that spacing) or whatever else, and if she mashes 2B/2A when you approach, just block 2B because there's a solid chance your grab/5A will hit during her 2B invinc frames (god why) and if she relies on 2A to poke at you while approaching, 236A beats it clean. Oh, and if you can bait the troit, stick to a spacing where it's unsafe on block or be ready to DP, I suppose!

[Yohosie]

I almost never try to challenge 5B with 214214C, that sounds insanely risky since she has so much control over 5B. You can also beat it with normal grab, which in the corner leads to full combo and chair oki meterless if your combos are solid, but you're really better off just eating it. You should just DP it on reaction and reset to neutral. Just be careful if she has 50 meter so she can't RC it and punish.

Sweep is an OK tool but an extreme risk and really not worth it. The fact that she can punish it max range on block is sad.

j.5C is an OK tool but it's once again punishable on block, but the risk-reward makes it worth it sometimes. Just be warned that she can easily score 3k (if not more) if you're even midscreen. You can do some real ass shit and feint a j.5C and then land and grab but most will notice yo haven't released it yet and 2B you.

I really don't recommend using lightning in neutral against Mitsuru unless you're absolutely positive you won't get punished. If you see a Mitsuru walk forward you can throw out a 2D (almost never a 5D, and absolutely not a j.D) but overall Mitsuru excels against Kanji in that she can hit him from anywhere on the screen nearly instantly. You're better off just blocking. Mitsuru's pressure is great but her mixup is mearly OK and it relies on baiting the opponent and grabbing in the corner for full damage. When you see them start to grab is when you make your move, either beating her grab with command grab or beating her faked grab -> jump out with 5A.

Learn to live in the corner in this matchup, you will be there for 99% of the match and that's perfectly fine. Her pressure is intimidating but mostly just a farce and can easily be down-backed against. If you can't tech grabs you will lose this matchup. Take risks after blocking for a long time and frustrating her. Never challenge charge B troit unless you have the reactions to DP it and she doesn't have 50 meter. Know when you can punish troit. Spoilers, a real ass Mitsuru will never let you punish troit.

I can't underestimate how crucial it is that you generally don't DP something when Mitsuru has 50 meter. She will OMC that shit and fatal counter you for insane amounts of damage. DPing in this matchup is really your best neutral game tool, just don't let it be used against you.

On offense a baited DP should just be 5A'ed before she lands if she has more than 50 meter. Mitsuru's options after landing make it absolutely ridiculous to punish her correctly. her million sword bullshit super will beat your roll and it's hard to see which super is coming, so you can roll the "Ice Mountain" and get fucked for it. She has 4 different options on landing, and that's way too many. Just do non-optimal 5A combos. It's not even worth it.

The matchup is 0% in your favor, the only thing that makes it even competitive is you doing maximum yomi shit. Be janky. Get in their head. pull down your pants and shit on their face

EDIT: Oh, and max range Mitsuru AoA in the corner is punishable by 236236A and only 236236A. (DOUBLEEDIT: Maybe sweep on IB? Need to test it) 90% of the time you get a chair throw, so unless you have enough meter to OMC it into dash 2B 236C (or tk j.214B if you want to OMB for a kill and do a shitload of damage) it's not worth it. If you predict it you can EX gotcha after a 5AAA string or whatever and it'll grab both AoA and jumpouts but not jump-in jB's and absolutely not 5A so only do it if you're feeling manly as fuck.

[Omex]

I can't underestimate how crucial it is that you generally don't DP something when Mitsuru has 50 meter. She will OMC that shit and fatal counter you for insane amounts of damage. DPing in this matchup is really your best neutral game tool, just don't let it be used against you.

On offense a baited DP should just be 5A'ed before she lands if she has more than 50 meter. Mitsuru's options after landing make it absolutely ridiculous to punish her correctly. her million sword bullshit super will beat your roll and it's hard to see which super is coming, so you can roll the "Ice Mountain" and get fucked for it. She has 4 different options on landing, and that's way too many. Just do non-optimal 5A combos. It's not even worth it.

the only thing mitsuru can clash with kanji DP and OMC to punish with is bufudyne and persona normals. if she does million swords super and OMCs it it activates kanji's counter and gives him full invuln (you have to block tho but no CH, no punish.) so unless you're DPing whips/jc you're fine. she cannot omc anything without guard/invinc and bufudyne is the only super she has that doesn't trigger kanji's invinc.

2D lightning is a pretty bad idea vs mitsu imo, 2D has extra recovery on it thanks to it being the close one (~20f?) so it's more likely than not she can get a 5A to CH you or roll it on reaction or etc etc. definitely a once only trick probably.

the important thing about 'baited DP' is that if you don't block it she can't super cancel it at all. kanji's options for making it whiff aren't amazing considering it's short duration but important to know if you manage a roll at a weird time or 214C through it (fairly common to invinc through mitsu's 214c if you try to punish troit or other weird situations where they GO FOR IT-it only has one active frame and 214c has 3 invinc right at the start.) that opens up your punish options considerably so you don't need to 5a punish in those situations.

214214c is stupid risky vs 5b but if you either 100% know it's coming it WILL beat it unless it is WAY out of your range, and if the mitsu doesn't know the matchup and 5Bs towards you, use it. if you're playing a top end mitsu do not use it. simple as that. normally i wouldn't give shitty advice like that on dustloop but there's too many people in this game who don't know their matchups so it's very worth knowing. also beats uncharged 5b beautifully.

if mitsu is canceling her strings into marin karin (flower) keep in mind that it is pretty unsafe, around ~-17 on most of her cancels? barring charged 5b i do believe. that means to punish you'll have to go for it pretty quickly after she cancels so it's a bit of a risk (not a lot of reaction time) but it's very definitely punishable. don't let people get away with it frequently for free. repeat: punishing it is a risk but it's one of her least safe cancel options a lot of the time, so don't let her get away with it frequently.

jump away j.c/badly spaced j.cs lose to 2b for a CH 4k. don't let mitsus get away with that for free.

max range 5a whiffs on crouching kanji. sweep her.

I could be wrong but TK j.214ab also beats charged b troit period afaik. did not test extensively.

edit: and 0% is melodramatic so ha

[Yohosie]

Nearly 100% positive Mitsuru can OMC lightning and just straight punish it. Me and DC play fairly regularly and he's done it to me before but I haven't really played the game aside from Final Round in a month so I may be remembering incorrectly.

Kanji might have an interesting option I've seen happen where a max range sweep will go under Mitsuru's DP on wakeup. I don't have the game currently so it should probably be tested.

The idea with D lightning is you will want to punish where she will be rather than where she is. With the ability to near-instantly hit you across the screen I find 5D's will just have her shove a sword up your ass. 2D's give you the option to create a wall, where if she does troit at you you can punish it, if she's charging a troit you can punish it, and if she's remaining at neutral you have a wall she can't get past temporarily. 5D's I find she'll just charge in before anything happens. I just find 5D to not be as favorable in this matchup compared to 2D, but honestly in non-oki situations lightning is super lack luster against her.

[Omex]

Nearly 100% positive Mitsuru can OMC lightning and just straight punish it. Me and DC play fairly regularly and he's done it to me before but I haven't really played the game aside from Final Round in a month so I may be remembering incorrectly.

Yeah, she can't OMC a move unless it has invinc VS Kanji's DP because of how the retaliation hitstun works works, and if it's a physical based hit (millionpoke sword super for example, or yu DP/Crutch slash/etc) it activates the DP's 'retaliation attack.'. If that retaliation attack ever gets triggered, Kanji's recovery looks the same as it always does, but he now has 100% recovery invinc. Mitsuru can OMC bufudyne, OMC and CH punish Kanji's DP, but outside of projectile based attacks and persona normals you can't OMC vs kanji's DP and punish for a CH, let alone punish.

best way to demonstrate it, if yu trades his DP with Kanji DP and then does Ziodyne C or D, neither CH Kanji even though it clearly hits him before he finishes recovering. similarly, DP --> Cross slash just whiffs on Kanji's recovery.