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[P4A] Kanji vs. Naoto: Uncomfortable hugs.

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. . .

~Axis edit~

Naoto is a pain but not unbeatable she has some perks that make it hard for us:

She has a gun.

She has the 2nd fastest run in the game.

She sets traps which lead to corner and pain.

She has a instant kill mechanic. (rarely have to see this.)

She has touch of death combos.

These can be overcome if you play really safe and play neutral really well.

So I got a quick write up for you.

Long range: She has bullets, if she is this far you can do a regular jump when she aim's up and press j.D in her "blind spot". Blind spot is the spot where she can't shoot you.

This hits or or make her block, make the most of this, otherwise get in mid range, hate to say it but you need to be here this time.

Mid range: Her persona can hit you and it's safe against your DP, if she does 2C or use any string where she charge 2C then roll punish it.

Her j.C is one of those things you have to be respect so respect it, if you IB it then you can actually mash DP in the gap.

Close Range: Naoto got an assortment of jump cancelable normals and she can move really fast, her j.A is an overhead while her j.C isn't. (weird I know)

She can also do fishy stuff like dropping a trap and rolling. (Shouldn't be a big deal since trap has start up frames and you can DP her roll recovery.)

She can still use trap to bait you into doing something and at this range eating anything that is not a A attack can usually lead to smp loop.

My response to SMP loop? please don't get hit by SMP loop, it does 5-6k minimum to death.

TL:DR shock gun shots if used in bad places, shock her for setting traps, AA appropriately, don't get hit by stuff like EX rolls and SMP loops.

Will do more ASAP.

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This episode of Runnin' Sets that popped up is really good. There's lots of solid gold matchup nuggets here, especially related to approach.

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This thread exists so that people who rather read about or discuss match up can do so. There are video threads where you can post things like this if you didn't want to talk about it in any detail.

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Naoto has to be played VERY patiently against, at least until the first knockdown. She can set traps up both in the air and on the ground--and Naoto players will be smart enough to put up a sign above her that will block J.214A/B/AB attempts before she tries anything easily punishable by it. These 'signs' can be destroyed by attacking, which means J.B is your best friend in this matchup, as it can easily clear air and ground signs at the same time.

Double fangs (Her jump forward two hit attack, second hit is an overhead, is spammed constantly in SMP loops) actually has a gap between the first and second hit. Mash DP will come out in time, not sure about anything else.

If she's pressuring with her Persona pokes, be careful--the ground 'goes invisible then comes back' ones are hard to deal with, as each swing doesn't have a hurtbox, but if Naoto tries to jump in with her (Jumping C?) downward spear attack, DP will eat the persona and let you cancel into 236236A/B or 214214C/D based on the situation, hopefully grabbing her as soon as she lands for a free punish. j.c is actually a great safejump tool on kanji hooray.

Aside from that, J.D and 5D are your FRIEND in this match up. Naoto's either going to be trying to zone Kanji out nigh fullscreen or pressuring him with her good-range grounded pokes hoping to land a hit into her SMP loop or whatever else--Usually the former until the latter.

Her counter can punish a grab as well as hits with a near fullscreen knockback, so be wary of it. She cannot use it if she is persona broken however, so if you break her, you're good to go! Her throw is also painful, as she can extend it with a followup attack that knocks you full screen. (Might require persona?)

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Aside from that, J.D and 5D are your FRIEND in this match up. Naoto's either going to be trying to zone Kanji out nigh fullscreen or pressuring him with her good-range grounded pokes hoping to land a hit into her SMP loop or whatever else--Usually the former until the latter.

I just want to note that the Naoto player can actually counter on reaction to j.D/5D. To be fair though, Omniscythe is the only Naoto player I've ever seen do it though.

I also think not all of her double fang variants can actually be DP'd out of, I need to double check that.

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I just want to note that the Naoto player can actually counter on reaction to j.D/5D.

The question is, counter on reaction when they're setting a trap/shooting the gun? Because that's the general idea with lightning. Most people can run/roll on reaction no problem, it's when they're doing a special that you want to nail them. :V

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Actually, they can still counter on reaction if they do the trap on the ground. Obviously, they can't while they are in the air, but they have enough time to block. The only way to actually hit Naoto is to preemptively do j.D, which of course, guarantees nothing and is really obvious. 5D is the same.

Also, I was right, you can't actually DP Naoto out of A and EX Double Fangs. Only the B version.

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Actually, they can still counter on reaction if they do the trap on the ground. Obviously, they can't while they are in the air, but they have enough time to block.

...If it holds Naoto in the air if you catch her with J.D so you can set up 236C/2B/J.214, we're fine, and if she can't cancel the the gunshots into counter, then we're fine, is what I mean. As for the double fangs thing, my apologies.

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At best, j.D will create an unfavorable trade with gunshot (you both get hit, but you lose a persona card, and because she hits you 2nd, she gets out of paralysis).

If you catch Naoto in the air blocking after she set air trap, it doesn't set up j.214X, because you'll be hit by trap when you attempt to do it (the trap doesn't go away if she only has to block). Even if you run right after a 5D, I'm pretty sure you can't get a 236C or 2B setup, although, I could just be slow on that.

EDIT: This assume Naoto doesn't do a really high jump, which she has no reason to ever do against Kanji.

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At best, j.D will create an unfavorable trade with gunshot (you both get hit, but you lose a persona card, and because she hits you 2nd, she gets out of paralysis).

If you catch Naoto in the air blocking after she set air trap, it doesn't set up j.214X, because you'll be hit by trap when you attempt to do it (the trap doesn't go away if she only has to block). Even if you run right after a 5D, I'm pretty sure you can't get a 236C or 2B setup, although, I could just be slow on that.

EDIT: This assume Naoto doesn't do a really high jump, which she has no reason to ever do against Kanji.

This is all assuming Naoto is at advantage when she does these things/Kanji is only reacting, is it not? There's a such thing as baiting Naoto into going for the gunshots or trap/doing J.D at a spacing where her gunshots won't hit him in the frames where he'll get counterhit. Cause, at least, I've managed to hit her plenty of times in the angles her bullets don't directly cover.

Just trying to cut out any scenarios where 'well, if the opponent is PERFECTLY PREPPED for each option', since... that invalidates grappler matchups most of the time, and yet people can still win. :v

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Uh, Naoto is always at advantage at that range. Her tools at neutral are superior to yours at that distance. Kanji can not react with anything to what Naoto does and get anything meaningful out of it, but on the other hand, Naoto can. I've already mentioned that you can hit her, but it has to be preemptive, which of course, guarantees nothing. You only have one option when you jump at j.D range, and that's j.D, only a weak or inexperienced Naoto player will not be watching for that.

All you are doing is making your own solutions narrower and narrower in scope to the point where they become situational rather than a general answer, and that's exactly what it is, situational. Kanji needs to trudge forward with j.B to clear out crap and control space, and be aware of EX roll (along with just her general mobility and other options) as her way of escaping and resetting the spacing game. That's really all he can do reliably. Anything else you can get away with is situational and depends on the flow of the match and the experience of the Naoto player.

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So, you're saying that if a Naoto sits in J.D range, you should never use J.D because it's worthless?

Every character can roll lightning on reaction. Is lightning completely worthless then? It shouldn't be used against anyone because they know it'll happen?

Just... it's an option. It's worth mentioning. No Naoto player is completely perfect, and if they're sitting in your j.D/5D/etc ranges and they're being dumb, it's an important tool to use. EVERYONE can counter lightning that easily, it doesn't mean they can and absolutely will. :V

And what about being further up than J.D range, and once Naoto goes for an action... airdashing backwards and using J.D, where the Naoto wasn't expecting it? Is it worthless because they know kanji can do it? :v

I dont' understand this logic of 'Kanji has tools that help out his neutral game VS zoners, don't use them because the other player can potentially counter them.' and I don't know why you need to push at them like this. :v

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My two cents on the matchup as a Naoto player.

People say that it's in Naoto's favor, but given how scrub level we are compared to the Japanese, it seems that it's only in her favor when the player is good at zoning properly, which is something a majority of us Naoto players still have trouble doing, especially against Kanji. Other than that, it seems that all it takes for Kanji is to land a Zio, whether it lands or it's blocked, run up and you're free to play Rock Paper Scissors with her. Guess correctly 3-4 times and the match is yours.

I suppose Naoto's have to learn to zone intelligently plus staying mobile in order to avoid Zio.

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Naoto is the second fastest runner in the game and sports a really fast projectile and traps.

She can switch from rushdown to zoner in a instant.

Getting hit by her 5B when she has 50 meter is usually a death sentence too.

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I think one of the main points to win this match-up is to never get discouraged.

You might get zoned out 90% of the round, but if you get in, that 150 SP + OMB comeback is waiting if you play patiently.

Relying too much on Rock Paper Scissors isn't really the best thing to do all the time when you get in. A lot of Naoto's conserve meter for that EX gunshot cross up and don't forget her DP. I'd usually bait those and counter attack with a well spaced j.C, it'll make them relent after a few FC's.

As for meter consumption on our part ... I'd say set-ups>Damage unless she's below 50%.

5D and J.D must - MUST BE USED in this match. Though not continuously. (Naoto players think this is their best chance to rush down.)

Question though, does Zio cancel her traps? or do they have to be hit physically?

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I think one of the main points to win this match-up is to never get discouraged.

You might get zoned out 90% of the round, but if you get in, that 150 SP + OMB comeback is waiting if you play patiently.

Relying too much on Rock Paper Scissors isn't really the best thing to do all the time when you get in. A lot of Naoto's conserve meter for that EX gunshot cross up and don't forget her DP. I'd usually bait those and counter attack with a well spaced j.C, it'll make them relent after a few FC's.

As for meter consumption on our part ... I'd say set-ups>Damage unless she's below 50%.

5D and J.D must - MUST BE USED in this match. Though not continuously. (Naoto players think this is their best chance to rush down.)

Question though, does Zio cancel her traps? or do they have to be hit physically?

All attacks hit her traps. They have to be exposed first, though.

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Regarding EX gunshot, you can throw her out of the startup. So command throws will beat it clean. Then you just have to worry about DP or jump out, but the risk/reward is in your favor.

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Okay, regarding setting traps, gunshots, everything with J.D... seriously, as far as I can tell, disregard nigh everything Siefer said.

1. Naoto can 'beat' lightning on reaction with Counter

...so what? Kanji recovers fast enough to block it, both with 5D and J.D. If Naoto immediately does the counter followup shot, it doesn't even hit Take Mikazuchi because of his startup invinc. Naoto has to delay the shot in order to actually hit him, giving Kanji plenty of time to walk forward SLIGHTLY and block it, protecting him and netting a free counterhit lightning followup bolt on Naoto. And this is all tested... on -2D-, which has the most favorable spacing for Naoto hitting him. With J.D, I can't even get her to hit Take-Mikazuchi with the counterattack if Kanji blocks, basically guaranteeing lightning counterhit if she goes for counter. As far as I can tell, Kanji has the complete advantage here, being able to delay the lightning strikes and Take having startup invinc. I don't think you actually tested this at all, I can't see how Naoto can reliably counter Kanji, at worst she can make him 'not run forward after blindly firing off a lightning'

edit: in retrospect a not full screen j.d when jumping backwards might let take get punished but with the extra travel time you can seriously just walk forward and block it. no risk.

Same thing with her gunshot--with J.D, you can time your fall so you'll be out of her gunshot range for the duration you can't block, and will at worst lose a persona card. If you jump back, on reaction to the bullets, you can do J.D, hover in the air where the bullets aren't hitting, counterhit her, and I can't even get her bullets to counterhit takemikazuchi during this.

2. Hitting Naoto when she's in the air to set an air trap/ground trap/whatever is a bad idea.

No. First off, counter doesn't save her, and gunshot is too slow. 'Experienced Kanji Players' will know if a Naoto is trying to zone hard and hasn't put down her traps yet, he'll throw out lightning when he sees it and get to hold her in place with the followup lightning, on block OR hit, letting him get in on her instead of having a hard time getting in on gunshots/traps. Best case scenario, if you manage to actually hit her during the trap startup, you even get a Persona card.

tl;dr lightning is useful in this matchup. "'experienced naoto players' will not let themselves get hit by lightning.'" Except... the same can be said about every character, in every matchup, and yet lightning isn't considered completely useless. If Naoto is doing something in the range your lightning is going to hit like jumping/gunshotting, then there's a solid chance it's worth using. Of course they can bait and run through it, but so can everyone else.

if i'm missing some SECRET MECHANIC about the counter/etc, let me know, but considering you didn't even do your research on 'gunshots beats J.D', i doubt it.

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vs :ballKA:'s DP:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18691185

http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html#http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm18691185

Jump up > falling jC can safejump Kanji's DP after a 236A midscreen (no trap set). It'll safejump the DP without spending a card, and meaty his 2B and command throw. However, if Kanji has meter, you have to watch out for wakeup chair super or Awakening super.

After blocking the DP, you can get a 5C CH > 2[C] combo, but be aware of Kanji's meter in case they Super Cancel. To bait this, block the DP, then jump forward and Air Turn into a jC crossup, or jump forward jC into a safejump, which will allow you to block the chair super with the right timing.

Blatantly stolen from the Naoto boards, but something you may just wanna be aware of.

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