[GGAC+R] Baiken - Combo Thread and Technical discussion

[youcanwonder]

Wth is kire tatami

[youcanwonder]

You can use this without an account http://www.mmcafe.com/nico.html

Also, thanks for the combos Hellmonkey

...now to grind 236956K

I think they took it down or I just cant watch from my phone bc when I try it it takes me to the play page..then sends me to nico log in smh

[youcanwonder]

Thanks for that thought stoneroth

[kaeru]

youcanwonder, please consider editing your posts instead of double or triple posting.

Kire tatami is doing a type IAD air tatami that is the absolute lowest to the ground possible. It's achieved by performing the motion for the tatami on the ground, then IAD and finishing the move. The notation for it would be

2369-6-K

where the - are very very small pauses.

[youcanwonder]

My mistake. And ok..ive always just knowb it has iad tatami lol

[kaeru]

I'm probably going to wipe the first post soon as most of the combos there are not optimal, unfortunately. I am currently in the lab with Youzansen in the corner. For only 50 meter you can net as much as 260 damage on some characters. Truly insane.

This one works on everyone with only minor adjustments in how you jump cancel here and there. It does 224 against SL damage.

Youzansen RC, j.236K |> 6HS > 236K > j.K > dj.HS > dj.236K |> 6P > Suzuran~Zakuro

This one PROBABLY also works on everyone with minor tweaking, but is harder. The damage is well worth it though. for 50 meter it does 248 against SL damage.

Youzansen RC, j.236K |> 6HS > 236K > (9)j.K > (8)dj.HS > dj.236K |> 5S > (8)j.K > (9)dj.HS > dj.236K |> 6P > Suzuran~Zakuro

(on lightweight characters, omit the tatami after 6HS and go right into j.K)

Easy mode 75 meter that works on everyone far from corner (but not exactly mid screen), does average 225 damage

Youzansen RC, j.236K(late as possible) |> 41236HS, 6HS > j.SD FRC > AD > j.HS > j.236K |> 6P > Suzuran~Zakuro

If 6HS doesn't work in the last one, 2D will.

There may be some cases were very light variations are necessary to make them work. In general, however, i was very surprised to see how universal the combos were, in that they seemed to be able to work with little change on 90% of the cast. I remember having slight issues with ABA.

I also haven't started incorporating 2HS into these, but i plan on it.

This has already been said before, but I will mention it anyway:

For those of you building combos, remember the key to +R Baiken is to fit j.HS and 6HS as many times as possible. Always opt for these moves instead of others when you have the choice.

EDIT:

corrected some of my notations and damage estimations that were written from memory.

Edited September 5, 2013 by kaeru

[Star-Demon]

6H prorates better than 5H or you just want the 6H hit property?

[kaeru]

6H is her highest damaging normal and very favorable for the guard bar (one of the changes in +R). It has no special proration as starter or med combo.

[Zida]

I managed to get my hands on the JP version of the game and I figure I should probably post the few easy hard knockdown BnBs I've learned to save some people the trouble of having to wrestle through a lot when the game finally hits NA consoles. All of these combos lead into hard-knockdown. I mean, this is Guilty Gear right? I apologize if these combos are old news, which they may be since I got a bit of it from match videos and a bit of it from Hellmonkey's suggestion in another thread.

Baiken really wants her opponent in the corner for tons of damage. This means you want to find midscreen BnBs that involve plenty of corner carry, even at the expense of a little bit of extra damage. Keep in mind that my BnBs are week 1 and I've learned most of it in-game against players since I loathe lab-time.

Corner:

1.) 2D > 236K > 2D > j.P > j.K > jump cancel > j.H > 236K > land (opponent crosses you up) > 6P > 63214K >(as fast as possible)412P

• This combo does around 35% and leads into a hard knockdown, allowing you whatever type of oki you please. You can actually leave the j.P out for slightly more damage, but the timing is tighter and more character specific.
  
• Against May and perhaps other floaty characters, leave out the second 2D and just jump after the 236K.
  
• Against Axl and perhaps other skinny characters, the second part of the 6P often doesn't hit and Axl techs out. I'm not really sure what to do here yet.
  
  2.) 2D > 236K > 2D > j.P > j.S > j.D FRC > airdash > j.H > 236K > land (opponent crosses you up) > 6P > 63214k >(as fast as possible)412P
  
  • Courtesy of Hellmonkey in the Baiken Discussion thread. This is a slightly higher damage version of combo #1 at the 25% tension cost. To me, it's a bit easier on most characters, though.
    
  • Against May and perhaps other floaty characters, leave out the second 2D and just jump after the 236K.
    
  • Against Axl and perhaps other skinny characters, the second part of the 6P often doesn't hit and Axl techs out. I'm not really sure what to do here yet other than try to delay each attack as much as possible, so that Axl is low to the ground when you 6P him.
    
    Corner Notes:
    
    • You can get more damage after these combos by either jumping up with the opponent after the 6P or FRCing the 412P counter and extending.
      
    • Youzansen RC > Tatami > 2D > j.P ... works in the corner.
      
      Midscreen:
      3.) 2P > 2K > 6P > 623P > j.P > j.S > j.D FRC > airdash > j.H > 236K > land (opponent crosses you up) > 6P > 63214K > (as fast as possible)412P
      
      • Useful when you are facing the nearest corner, as you need a corner for the j.H to land. Note that the combo is nearly the same as the corner combo and that you can extend this similarly by FRCing 412P or following up the last 6P.
        
      • I believe you can probably leave out the j.P for more damage.

    4.) 2P > 2K > 6P > 623P > 2H (opponent crosses you up) > 6P > j.P > j.S > j.D FRC > airdash > j.H > 236K > land (opponent crosses you up) > 6P > 63214K > (as fast as possible)412P

    [*]This is almost identical to combo #3, but it's useful if your back is to the nearest corner. Again, you'll need a corner to land the j.H, and you can also likely leave out the j.P for more damage.

    General notes:

    [*]Kabari has been greatly improved as far as combo potential goes. Antiair Kabari now brings the opponent downwards so that you can follow up with whatever you wish, and Tetsuanzen won't miss in weird situations nearly as much. This means that you can combo into a j.D FRC > airdash for corner carry a little easier than in AC (although it wasn't too hard before). I haven't tested it much yet, but I'm fairly sure you can combo into Kabari after a Youshijin if the opponent is in a counter-hit state.

    [*]Most of these combos work on most characters. There are a few small exceptions, but overall it's very similar to AC in that there aren't a whole lot of character specific things to learn.

Edited September 23, 2013 by Zida

[Hellmonkey]

To maximize your damage off kabari, try using 6H during the slide on air hit or tetsuzansen FRC 6H on bigger hitboxes.

[kaeru]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SXIUHEJRs8g#t=183

2K > 6P > 623P, 6P > 41236H, 623P, 6P > Suzuran~Zakuro

against heavy rob and pot, maybe others?

here against potemkin, same combo but with tetsuzansen follow up and still end with zakuro without FRC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WPCnCkZaHXA#t=381

Baku, 2K > 6P > 623P, 6P > 41236H~S, 6P > Suzuran~Zakuro

(EDIT: mistakenly noted tetsuzansen input as H but it's S, sorry about that !)

it blackbeats before kabari, but it probably can work.

Against Anji

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvMESpLhiOE&feature=player_detailpage#t=173

2D > 236K (FRC), Kire Tatami, 41236H, 6P> Suzuran~Zakuro

Safe Jump airdash HS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PvMESpLhiOE#t=299

very useful technique

On light characters, raw Zakuro can go into 2D > j.D without FRC

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PvMESpLhiOE#t=325

apparently keeps knockdown, too.

abare on j.H pressure near corner

j.H > j.236K, dash, 5HS > Suzuran~Zakuro

seems to do substantial damage here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WPCnCkZaHXA#t=77

Edited November 3, 2013 by kaeru

[Hellmonkey]

zakuro/youshijin loop

Looks like this works for robo, pot and johnny. The testsuzansen follow (which is S not H) doesn't work on johnny and is very hard on robo.

The testsuzansen followup adds a whole 1 damage over the youshijin after kabari version. It's hard to land the 6P into kabari on pot unless you're really point blank

As the commentary points out in the video (in japanese), this gives some good meter gain.

zakuro 2d j.d

That is a nice tip for raw zakuro or zakuro CH into 2d j.D. It knocks down on all characters but robo-ky, who falls out too far to connect j.D.

You can follow up with 2d j.D FRC 23656K 2d j.sd FRC ad j.h j.tatami 6p zakuro (168 on Chipp, versus 115 from just 2d j.d).

Interestingly, it's identical between CH or normal zakuro because the first hit doesn't have any damage or GB- associated with it.

For comparison, a 50% combo: zakuro FRC 6h 2d j.s j.d FRC airdash mat j.k jc j.h j.tatami 6p zakuro is 197 damage. So it's definitely a good option for both meterless and if you want to spend 50% with the corner carry and you missed the FRC.

The downside is the link to 2d j.D is pretty tight, and to finish the combo requires good timing on airdash mat and run 2D near the corner.

The other reason not to always use this is because the zakuro knockdown is pretty nice by itself as opposed to blowing them across the screen with j.D.

safe jump

FYI you can safe jump with j.P, j.K or j.S as well, it's just a matter of timing yourself to land within a couple frames of them waking up. It is particularly easy with j.H because you don't have to worry about timing the j.H input much due to the long active frames. Remember to hold down back when you're landing next to them for the auto-block.

j.P can be nice against more experienced players for this, as they will be holding back after inputting their special in case they miss the timing for reversal, and also gives them less time to react to what you do in the air. A blocked j.P (or j.K) will give them less time to react and might get you a free throw.

It is specifically nice to use iad j.H if you're going into the corner for this because you can actually get a crossup j.H that catches everyone off guard. Slashback-dash can increase the likelihood of this happening (slashback during your instant airdash startup to travel further)

'abare' j.h CH

The last example with j.H j.236k is just a horrible missed opportunity for damage. He should have done 5H tatami into j.H tatami loop instead of ending early into zakuro. It had a bit of guard gauge raised and started with CH j.H, it should be massive damage or at least force a burst.

Thank you for all of the wonderful video links and pointing out these pieces with time stamps! Saved me a lot of time so I could try it out in training mode instead of sifting through the videos again myself.

Edited November 2, 2013 by Hellmonkey

[kaeru]

Thank you for all your insight into those moments Hellmonkey ! I really like that little yoshijin loop.

I fixed the input for tetsuzansen in my post, sorry about that.

Also added the timestamp for the kire tatami combo against Anji, it was missing. This combo is nothing new, but it seemed to be a really good visual example since it was a topic of discussion earlier in the thread. I still have a lot of trouble with this one, myself ! Hopefully the visual aid will be useful to others.

[kaeru]

These moments are all in the Kuni vs Teresa match vid:

Interesting variation of the meterless B&B for light characters, 6P early and first hit whiffs on purpose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b6IuGRwrJoA#t=881

Earlier in the same vid, a corner version that is very interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b6IuGRwrJoA#t=82

It seems similar to the "heavy character" yoshijin loop from earlier, but this might work on lighter characters. It dropped but since he went for it, it is probably possible. It might be corner only.

Grab into Baku~Unblockable Unburstable setup

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b6IuGRwrJoA#t=50

Arguably, the meter would've been better spent on a Youzansen mixup, but this is still interesting and I wanted others to take a look and see it for what it is. It didn't score Kuni a combo, but it allowed Kuni to meaty with his best starter, 6HS, and use the head invulnerable frames to escape Jam's poor reversal (though, Jam could've parried). Then Kuni punishes the whiffed reversal, but the curse was over and Burst became an option once more.

Gekirin counter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b6IuGRwrJoA#t=107

This is really interesting and Kuni does it MANY times in the fight, leading me to believe this is something useful that can be applied against Jam in general. It seems half option selected because he is holding 4 and taps HS to either get a late meaty on wakeup, or a 6HS cross up Gekirin punish. 6HS Startup and head invulnerable frames seem to match perfectly with this. If the Gekirin doesn't come, You'd get a 5HS poke on okizeme, which isn't totally bad, but maybe a little late. Not a big deal considering 5HS's speed.

Another example here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b6IuGRwrJoA#t=188

This is a bit strange, and I'm not sure if it's worth mentioning, but tagging a tiny bit of damage after Zakuro and maintaining Oki:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=b6IuGRwrJoA#t=433

It seems to work well, and timed for the Tatami to still give arguable Okizeme. Falling tatami is better, but it might catch someone off guard? Keeping setups ambiguous and fresh has a certain value. It seems to be directly aimed at fishing for a counter hit from a mashy opponent, who sees the tech as an opportunity to punish.

[Murderbydeath]

Can someone put Baiken's combo theory very succinctly and noob friendly? I've seen Maruken do tons of things that this thread doesn't mention, like huge tatami loops involving lots of 6H from random midscreen hits, etc. I'm wondering what Baiken's basic combo theory is. From what I gather in the thread, it's pretty simply something like this:

Corner? 2D xx tatami -> 2D j.P -> the rest

Midscreen? Hit confirm into 6P xx 623P j.P -> the rest

But again, I see very different things from match videos. Help a brother out?

[kaeru]

This time around Baiken simply doesn't have any true reliable B&B. Pretty much everything is situational. Here is a very basic rundown of things that work (generally)

mid screen:

(character specific)

6K or 2K > 6P > Yoshijin, (late) 6P > Kabari, 6P, Suzuran ~ Zakuro

this doesn't work on light characters and needs to be played around with. Maruken has done some crazy stuff on Jam that is different.

with some meter:

stuff, j.D FRC, ad j.Tatami, land, 2D > j.K > dj.H > dj.Tatami, land, 6P > Suzuran~Zakuro

the 2D can be replaced by 6HS on some characters and can be replaced by 6HS > Tatami on other characters

a good starter for this is airhit Kabari, ground slide towards Baiken.

Kabari air hit, 6HS, j.D FRC, continue as above

corner

(character specific)

stuff, Tatami, 2D > j.K > dj.H > dj.Tatami, land, 6P > Suzuran~Zakuro

or

stuff, Tatami FRC (or air Tatami) > 6H > Tatami, j.K > dj.H > dj.Tatami, land, 6P > Suzuran~Zakuro

Then you can also play around with the different ending where instead of going for the last 6P you do:

6K > 2HS > 6P > Suzuran~Zakuro

I know this works well on the testament/slayer type hitboxes but it can be hard to time just right.

Sorry for the lack of a better answer to your question, but I hope this helps you get started.

[Murderbydeath]

stuff

Watching more Maruken matches, I think her basic combo theory is starting to make more sense. Combos are indeed very positionally based, and it seems like knowing when to employ 2H to reposition the opponent is pretty key to optimizing your damage, and, if you go the oki route, your oki opportunities. I think the part that confuses me though is when you start involving meter to FRC things. The combo routes kind of open up at this point, and being that a lot of it is positional, it seems very loose and hard to grasp to optimize things. I did notice though that Maruken uses 2H more often than not if he's even a little bit away from the center of the screen. Furthermore, he seems to opt for damage over oki most of the time. I guess this makes sense, given that Baiken's oki seems limited to a few options, most of which involve tatami in some variety (airdash over, tatami; meaty tatami, etc.) or safe jump H. I imagine this is also kind of positional, though. New Baiken all 'bout dat position, tho.

[kaeru]

Yes you are absolutely right. The use of j.H in the corner is especially tricky because if you do it with a neutral double jump (instead of forward) you can earn more repetitions of (2D j.K j.H j.Tatami) before needing to go for cross under 6P. Learning to get it to work requires a lot of practice and is character specific.

[Alpha Dog]

Burst Throw during combo by kuni. so sick even though it wasn't intentional. Im gonna pretend it was though so i can be impressed

Combo at 24:32

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DSCDYXbqoso

[Fryght]

Practicing kire tatami, I usually either get IAD.K or superjump, no air dash. Any way I might improve on this? With the tiger knee moves, are they supposed to be superjump versions always, or am I inputting too quickly? (I get superjump with TK Youzansen as well, usually)

It's nice to practice Baiken again, she is a lot of fun again in +R

[kaeru]

Practicing kire tatami, I usually either get IAD.K or superjump, no air dash. Any way I might improve on this? With the tiger knee moves, are they supposed to be superjump versions always, or am I inputting too quickly? (I get superjump with TK Youzansen as well, usually)

It's nice to practice Baiken again, she is a lot of fun again in +R

I'll try to break this down by parts so you can identify where you're having trouble based on the outcome you are getting.

first the 2369 -> This is straightforward, just make sure you don't miss the 3 or you might not get the tatami at the end.

very slight delay -> This is to let Baiken get off the ground. Messing this part up will result in no airdash

6 -> Tapping 6 here at the lowest possible height will get the airdash going.

very slight delay -> This is to let Baiken finish the airdash startup time, during which the game ignores your inputs. Messing this part up will result in no Tatami.

K -> Finally, hit K as soon as the airdash startup is done and you will fastfall the airdash with a beautiful (kire) Tatami.

Hopefully this will help you diagnose where you are having trouble. As far as super jump goes, you shouldn't get a superjump but even if you do, it shouldn't matter or harm you in any way.

For Youzansen:

62369 -> Straight forward but again, make sure you don't miss that 3, it's extremely important.

very slight delay -> same as kire tatami, if you move on before Baiken is airborn, it will result in an empty super jump instead.

S -> hit S at the right height to begin Youzansen. The right height is not the lowest possible height, but just a few pixels above it. This makes combing easier.

236KSH -> Roman cancel with K. This part HAS to be done (as much as possible) completely during the hitstop of the Youzansen. Do not do it earlier then that, and make sure it's completely done and you've let go of KSH before hitstop is over. This is the best way to get the tatami out properly. If you mess this up by doing it too soon, you will not even get a roman cancel. If you wait too long to finish the motion, you will get a roman cancel but Baiken's landing will cancel the tatami.

If your timing is right, but you get no Tatami, it might be that you missed the 3. If you get a second Youzansen, you need to clean up your motion down to a simple 236 OR make sure you let go of K first -> [KSH] > ]K[. This will prevent any S or H moves from getting negative edged.

The difficulty here involves waiting for the right time, and then executing as fast as possible.

I hope this helps !

Edited February 14, 2014 by kaeru

[Fryght]

Awesome, thanks!

I do TK Youzansen with 6321473, but I should practice the cleaner input :p

[kaeru]

You definitely do not need to change your input to anything else if it works for you !! The most important things are comfort and consistency. If you're comfortable doing it that way and it is consistent, by all means keep it !! Don't let anyone tell you otherwise :3.

[Essay]

S -> hit S at the right height to begin Youzansen. The right height is not the lowest possible height, but just a few pixels above it. This makes combing easier.

From my experience, you really need to learn to hit this and combo from it at the lowest possible height if you're going to want to use it against a crouching Kliff or Faust. It straight up wiffs on them otherwise.

[BlackYakuzu94]

Question, I'm trying the 2K>6P>Youshihijin>late 6P>Kabari combo, but they seem to tech out of the 6P before Kabari connects. Am I not waiting for them to be as close to the ground?