[P4A] Naoto Shirogane - Critique Thread "Seeker of Truth"

[ludwig van]

If you're having trouble figuring out what went wrong in a match and have video footage of it, post here for help.

[-Otsdarva-]

This guy destroys my health bar on every hit confirm, very strong Liz player. I did learn about the standing and crouching animation she does when calling her Persona, but that was after the matches .

Feel free to rip me apart for making so many bad decisions.

[The_Crazyasian]

I think for the most part you played well against the Elizabeth. There were a decent amount of rounds where you died just because you didn't know about her animations when she's using her persona, and all it takes is one hit to take us down to 1/4 health seeing as how we're made of paper. There's a few things I want to comment on though:

- Would have liked to see more 5a pressure. You wanna stay in on her as much as possible and seeing as how her fastest move is 7 frames and she wasn't using her F-Action at all, you could have stayed on her pretty hard. You have a habit of chaining out of 5A into normals other than 2a, particularly 5c, and while this isn't super bad or anything, it puts you at midscreen where she can blow you up pretty hard.

- I saw you like to do 5c > IAD > J.c a lot and while it worked against this Elizabeth, it can be pretty dangerous to do and should be done sparingly. Her 2B can easily stuff it and lead to a ton of damage. Also try and avoid using it when it'll put you near the corner for obvious reasons.

- Also noticed you like do 5a > JC to apply pressure in the corner and that's really dangerous for the same reason as above.

- Your execution on meterless combos is pretty good. I still have problems connecting B double fang > dash > 5C in real matches.

- Your confirms into SMP, particularly off of 5a, could have been better. There were a number of times where you could have done an SMP, burned his burst, and still had enough meter to do another one if you touched him again.

- I think this one is arguable but I think throwing out ground traps sparingly during neutral game is pretty good. You run the risk of getting tagged by zio but it can lead to some surprising situations. You like to do cross-up J.c a lot so you could throw one down and if you decide to do a cross-up, pressure them into it and then do something like double fang A, wiffing the first part of the attack for a quick overhead into the trap for great damage.

[-Otsdarva-]

Notes taken.

I agree with everything you said in you're post. The 5C, IAD, J.C thing is me kinda on autopilot, lol. I should've used 5A a ton in those matches instead of flying around all day, cause the Liz wasn't doing anything during my strings so there was no reason for me JCing out of normals to bait something like.. her R-Action. After watching those matches again, I think there were many times I should have grabbed him since he was showing me so much respect, but my grab combos are ass. And yeah, my SMP combos need an upgrade. I just started learning them a few days ago, so I don't have them down consistent yet. Crazy seeing you guy do SMP off any hit confirm, guess I need to study the mechanics more, lol. Anyway, thanks for the advice. I'm gonna fight him again soon and try playing a lot smarter.

[Zeromus_X]

Guys critique the shit out of my Naoto so I can not be free. Some videos from a local ranbat, I lucked out with second despite many dropped combos and bad decisions, but I know I have to step up my game if I want to place consistently.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt5OoZaJ-3o#t=1h3m22s (vs )

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt5OoZaJ-3o#t=2h14m23s (vs :ballKA:)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt5OoZaJ-3o#t=2h23m13s (vs )

www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdOWind-rs8#t=1m32s (vs :ballKA: and )

www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgQ64s7llKk#t=1m14s (vs )

[XDest]

Guys critique the shit out of my Naoto so I can not be free. Some videos from a local ranbat, I lucked out with second despite many dropped combos and bad decisions, but I know I have to step up my game if I want to place consistently.

Be more conscious of the meter you're using (you were doing auto-combo -> super a lot, even when they were in the corner and could've SMP'd). Use easier to time SMP variants and grind the hell out of them, this goes without saying though. I'm not one to talk, but you seem to be really nervous. I know how it can get to you, but it really helps with Naoto to be more patient and calm I think.

You were rushing down certain characters where it's usually better to just stick back and let them do something wrong (you cannot afford to get into Liz' midrange game, her 2B/j.B is too good). The Kanji matchup can almost be completely zoning, always have a C trap out near you and keep in mind the lightning spots. In my experience doing a close range game against a grappler is asking for trouble. You need to bait/punish DPs more. You need more consistent confirms off traps (especially CH ones).

That's about all that I can think about right now.

[Kivorav]

Yeah, I learned to play my matchups against Kanji by playing at the mid range after playing a couple of sets with a player at Level Up Series Thrusday Runbacks back on the 20th. Pretty much using pokes like 5B, Sweep, 5C, and 2C. I have to be weary of DPs, but those can be baited and punished like normally.

Anyways, first video from me. I do want to say that I am not looking at the match critique as it is an old one and I think I've improved from that point on. What I'm more looking at is the quality of the video. An HD PVR is on my wish lists right now, but for now my phone will have to do. It's a recent phone I got however, a Motorola Atrix HD and looking at the raw video file it looks crisp. The biggest thing I know I need to work on is my placement of lighting as in the video, my source is a lamp on my desk (seen on the left side). I do have a wall lamp directly behind me, but having that on would bring too much light and would glare from my TV. After getting some inputs, I'll take that video down and look at getting recent matches for actual critique. Which brings another question, would you guys suggests recording matches and putting them together (like five matches per video) or seperate each match as one video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzUzDqFP4iY

EDIT: Renewed the link.

[DynastyK]

From last night's Runbacks. The one and only match and the first for me on stream with a Naoto mirror. Starts at around 1:32:00.

http://www.twitch.tv/xiei/b/337760312

[Doonpa]

Hey guys, just wanted to post up a couple of my matches at the Break arcade and get some tips on some matchups/things i should be doing with naoto. Heres a couple of links and matches to check out:

http://www.twitch.tv/rokunaya/b/335369278

Me(Naochii) vs WYVERNLORD (Aigis) 59 min mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so17ae9gnrg&feature=BFa&list=PL0rvJJpWLht5Btwf-gK9GvGakDOY4NI_I

vs PeanutFever(Yukiko) 3:50 mark

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYpUuvYyrBA&feature=BFa&list=PL0rvJJpWLht5Btwf-gK9GvGakDOY4NI_I

vs MarlinPie (9:00)

Annd i don't remember if my match vs LK was streamed or not x_x Regardless all criticism is welcome guys.

[Doonpa]

Ok, so here is some footage of my Naoto after like a 2 month hiatus ( I technically dropped her, but then the recent Denpa vid showed me the way of true Naoto) which involved playing Mitsuru because screw top tier. Forgive my subpar confirms, but i feel like this is good footage on how to deal with Chie in particular. Critique and comments always welcomed guys.

http://www.twitch.tv/rokunaya/b/367798005

~22:00 mark, Me (Naoto) vs Colpevole (Chie). Winners Finals.

~47:00 mark, vs Grover (Narukami). Losers Finals. <---- screw this character. The actual answer to this matchup is pick a different character like Mitsuru :3 Probably Naoto's worst matchup in the game.

~1:07:00, vs Colpevole again, grand finals. Lost first match with Mitsuru, switched back to Naoto for the rest of the set.

Asides from my relative subpar hitconfirms, any tips and comments on things i should work on would be great guys.

[Zeromus_X]

Hey guys, more ranbat videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSyOwd1dFq4t=8m23s vs Kenja ( )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSyOwd1dFq4t=41m43s vs Rath ( )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSyOwd1dFq4t=79m49s vs Ray ( )

Help me not get violated by Mitsuru. Also I still have no idea what to do against Yukiko other than try to shoot her in the face.

[Zeromus_X]

Anyone still alive around these parts? Or have we all just given up on this character? Here's even more ranbat vids:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=m669CFCOAfst=33m43s vs Kenja

www.youtube.com/watch?v=m669CFCOAfst=41m50s vs GabeZ :ballKA:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Elgmv__KB8 vs Tubazo

www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1aa07fXU6Q vs Rath

I did some dumb things like trying to wakeup Awakening super out of Awakening, and messing up my techs against Mitsuru mirror oki. Still, I would appreciate any feedback, especially on the Mitsuru matchup.

[Doonpa]

Overall, you fought against this mitsuru player a lot better in this video that you posted compared to the previous video. Theres a couple of things I noticed about how you both play your respective characters that id like to point out since I play both Naoto and Mitsuru that you should think about.

General notes about your Naoto: Your trap sets/shot usage/5D usage is good, not much to say about that. Just stay as mobile as you can to avoid getting put into the corner or get put in a situation where you are going to be forced to block. Your AOA usage is decent, but its very much punishable on block, the Mitsuru player should have punished with 5A CH Sweep into whatever as there were moments where you got away with it. Another thing to note is your hit confirms and burst decisions. I like that you got your sweep knockdowns into 5D, its really good to safely apply pressure to Mitsuru without having to commit to it right away. What I dont agree with is using OMB on confirms that don't lead to much or RCing stuff on hit that does not lead to much as well. It's just not a good idea RCing 236A to get an extra 5B 5C etc. if you can't kill off of it or take the rest of their fate counters in the process. I know that you want to do as much as you can whenever you get to touch the opponent, but if you are sacrificing meter for low reward, you are killing your own damage potential in the long run. So please watch your hit confirms and be aware of what the results in terms of meter and damage are.

As for your match vs mitsuru, your neutral against Mitsuru was pretty good as you weren't hit out of setting traps with things like 2D/5D, which was good. Ideally, a Mitsuru player should not let you set more than one trap unless you knocked her down first. Her ranges allow her to hit you from fullscreen standing and at the top corners of the screen depending on where you are facing. So with that in mind, safest way to set traps on her is to be at super jump height a character length or two away from her to avoid the angles of her whip while being too high to get hit with 2B. Staying out of 5A range is also important. If you are at that range or slight out of it, then doing Chie things like microdash sweep will destroy 5A/Coup Droit. Another note is don't try to reaction DP Coup Droit, ever. Just block it, its not worth the risk of mistiming. Same thing with Mitsuru's D Mirror oki, never DP it since all a Mitsuru has to do is wait a split second before committing to 2A/j.b to bait the DP out. You got hit by the ice without even getting mixed up a few times, which is not good. Just try to block it, more often than not the Mitsuru player will go for j.B so just take a chance. If you have the meter, try reversal silencing shots if you want out out that badly if you are midscreen (don't do it in the corner). If they are late with setting up the ice or mess up the spacing in the corner, then you can ex roll out or use the awakening super to punish her. J.B is a big problem in this match as its range is retardedly far and difficult for Naoto to anti air. Its probably the best way for Mitsuru to disarm your traps as well along with 2A. 2B works sometimes against j.B, DP also works as she can't jump cancel it so she's stuck even if she decides to chain into j.C or j.D. Do be careful with your gunshots, as a mitsuru with meter can Ex Coup Droit you during the recover of your stance if im not mistaken. You can shoot safely if you have traps out before hand without worry about random coup droits hitting you. Also watch for him jumping your shots and hitting you with j.D while you are switching to C shots to get him out of the air. If that situation comes up too often, then consider ex rolling out of the snipe stance and then shooting him. Also fully charged Myriad Arrows kick is NOT unblockable. Roll and punish. That dude gave some wrong info there.

As for dealing with Mitsuru pressure, you are fortunate/unfortunate? that this specific mitsuru's pressure is still pretty basic. From the look of things, he sticks to basic 5AA 5B Sweep/feint pressure leading to either throw or another 4/5B to counter 2As/Throws. Heres the nice thing about B/Ex Fangs, it has low invul. Kill his sweep every time he decides to go for it off 5AA5B. If you instant block before he goes into sweep, I don't think he'll be safe even if he feints the sweep unless he does a charged 5B before going into sweep. By doing that, you won't have to deal with the situation of Throw/5B at all and you'll net a hilarious fatal counter. Once he decides to mix things up, you'll have to IB 5A/2A, DP (not 6 follow up version, sweep goes under it), Ex Roll, etc. during his pressure depending on what he does. If he changes things up, then I'll break down Mitsuru's pressure strings more carefully. In general, you'll win if you avoid this specific situation, corner D Mirror oki, along with avoiding 2D/5D/j.D. Have fun lol.

[Zeromus_X]

Thanks for your feedback, Diarmud. This kind of info on neutral game/pressure is exactly what I'm looking for, I really appreciate it. My biggest problem against Mitsuru is getting 5D/jD'd or Coup'd from across the screen when I try to zone her. I need to need to start covering the gun's dead zones with traps and try not to overextend with trap setting.

About your note on my meter usage, I agree that it's best to save meter/burst for loops or Mudoon combo or go for fate counters. In those matches I was really focused on squeezing out as much damage as I could, but after rewatching them I had the life lead most of the time so I didn't really need to use as many resources as I did.

I've actually started on a pocket Mitsuru for myself to understand the thought process behind her pressure. That trick with 236B sounds pretty hilarious and I'll definitely have to start practicing it. I think I just need to practice against her pressure options in general because I'm still losing to week one throw bait shit.

[Doonpa]

Yeah, 236B a is funny answer to sweep. I was talking to Colpevole about dealing with Mitsuru pressure and he reminded me that doing jump back airthrow when Mitsuru does 5AA5B is also completely legitimate and a lot safer than using 236B. It OSs Throw/Airthrow while getting you out of the situation entirely. And since airthrow recovers so fast, you'll be safe from practically anything else Mitsuru will try to follow up with. The blowup to that as Mitsuru is to sweep feint and 2B you, but if he is resorting to that in his pressure then you've achieved your goal of not having to deal with the 5B/Throw crap.

I also watched your matches vs Aigis and Chie today. From what i've seen, you fight Aigis pretty well. I can't really give you any advice besides keep doing what you are doing, but watch your hit confirms and what not. There are some things that you should be aware of vs Chie, and stuff that your Chie player should know thats really important in general. Colpevole gave me some info to pass on to you about your match.

Your trap sets and shot zoning are on point against Chie. Your pressure was good and you played neutral great. From what i've seen, you let this Chie get away with bad oki setups that you can get out of. If Chie ever does sweep 5DD midscreen without delaying 5DD enough, you can tech immediately and EX Roll out if you have the meter. Backdashing should also be possible if the oki is done too fast. You can also take a chance and tech immediately and upback the 5DD if its done top quickly. Theres a chance you'll still get hit., but the Chie player must react to you getting hit by the 5DD and do the proper confirm to get an AOA bounce into oki again. I am betting this Chie player does not know the confirm, so abuse this until he learns. There are specific gaps in Chie's pressure that you must react to and DP or mash the appropriate move. For example, you can't let Chie reset into Tomoe so easily. Resetting into 2DD is understandable, but never 5DD. Even 2DD is reactable especially if its not done in really awkward or unexpected points in her pressure. Be ready to DP it whenever you can. This is a matchup where you can take Chie's fate counters away real fast if they aren't careful with their pressure and approach. Another thing you should be ready to DP is D Black Spot, but from the look of it he never used it, but be aware of that. Also can't let him do j.D in the middle of his pressure. You can 2B it and get out of there. Asides from those spots, you are better off respecting and looking for moments to upback/backdash/Ex Roll/Rolling her general pressure. In the corner, you can still Ex Roll if the 5DD oki is done too quickly, so don't forget that.

EDIT: Forget to talk about giving Chie the finger for doing Agneyastra. If you have 50 meter, just do the shotgun super, especially if you have any traps out at all in front of you. If you have 100 meter and are in awakening, you can do 2141214A and shoot once, OMC it, then DP and slightly delay the 6 follow up. If you are nearly the corner, you can even SMP off the if you have an extra 50 meter. You can also raw DP and do the 6 follow up late, but i'd only do it if there traps in front or above me in such a way that Chie can't get behind Naoto in time.

And one little side tip that I remembered right now, if you get 5D CH, you don't have to go for 5C 236B as if it wasn't CH and risk dropping the combo (even though it looks like you have it down). Let them fall and do something like 5B/2A 5C j.a j.c land 5C 236B for like nearly 4k meterless.

[Zeromus_X]

Last ranbat of the season:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGgus3TsaKM#t=2m48s vs Luke (, )

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUiVGw6qesk#t=1m27 vs Tubazo ()

www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-ING7q1x5U#t=2m20s vs Luke (, )

Made 2nd place, but no cigar. Also Naoto vs Liz for most boring matchup ever.

[Zeromus_X]

Here's my ft10 vs Axis, around the 1:40:00 mark:

http://www.twitch.tv/ehrikirhe/b/414930501

Any tips? Overall, I had a pretty awkward neutral game against Kanji because I couldn't keep him out of the air. A lot of times, I tried to 2B where I should've just DP'd or done rising jA/B/airthrow or something. I also didn't try to punish the lightning by taking away Persona cards enough. I should've gone in a bit harder on Kanji since I didn't really go for much mixup outside of trap oki; I tried to play neutral too hard and ended up in the awkward situation where time is almost up and I don't have the life lead several times.

[Cynthetik]

Hi. New guy here.

I have a video of me playing against the best local Chie player and would really appreciate some critiquing on my gameplay so I can hopefully make some last minute adjustments before Evo. This match up is just hard, either that or I'm playing it completely wrong. I'm sure there are a lot of things I need to work on still, but any advice from other Naoto players would be great.

The video is currently set to private so send me a PM with an Email if anyone is interested in watching.

[Cynthetik]

Thanks Zeromus_X for the info, greatly appreciated.

[MotokoChill]

I usually don't drop my spaghetti so suddenly like this. I've been getting better as Naoto.
Any suggestions?

[Cynthetik]

Have an upcoming tournament soon so any criticism would be greatly appreciated. I haven't really played Persona since evo so I'm trying to get the rust out as much as possible, but here is a session that I recently played against one of our best players here. Don't mind the names, they are mostly an inside joke for our community here. I'm the Naoto and the Labrys player is Ryyudo (formally a Chie player).

I was mostly focusing on movement/pressure/oki in these matches so no SMP loops. (Sorry!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1r6o9Tu2Dp8

[Doonpa]

General Match up Notes vs Labrys

Labrys is free on wake up. Don't be afraid to meaty her unless she is in awakening. Labrys is also free to pressure especially Naoto's since she can easily jump cancel to avoid DPs or DP her back. Dealing with her guard cancel is annoying since it isn't affected by hit stop like the other guard cancels, but you can still react with DP or something to it. Don't fly at her(and everyone in general) recklessly because her 2B is great, but be especially mindful of how easy it is for her to AA people. IB all of her pressure and everything else is relatively easy to just block. 5AA into 5AA is not a frame trap and is really easy to mash. Kill IAD j.B with DP, there's nothing she can do to avoid getting hit besides OMC it or hope she crossed you up with her j.B, but its really easy to judge the range. You can also air throw her IAD or intercept it with j.B for a CH if you anticipate/react to it in time. Neutral is easy if you can kill j.B and avoid SB Chain Arm.

With that aside, i'll focus on your neutral and oki since that is your focus here. Overall, i will stress again that Labrys is free to meaty on oki unless she has 50 meter in awakening. Doing stuff like meaty 2[C], safe jump j.C and trap oki is really easy and safe if done properly. If you can't get the usual carry combo, then ending with 5AAA or Sweep into 236A~D is what you want for oki+setups. Pressure wise you can kind of just go nuts as long as you respect 2B if you plan on going back in via j.C/j.A. If you space your buttons properly you'll be safe from getting mashed during your pressure. You seemed kind of afraid of just going in occasionally and just resorted to running away when it was your turn on offense. You want to generally run away when you can escape the corner or need the space for zoning. Otherwise, RTSD but don't die. Your trap placement is fine, just beware of what ranges you are setting them from because you are very vulnerable when setting them without the proper cover and what not.

And lastly, here's a list of general Naoto "DONT DO IT"s:

-236A~D on block is negative, so don't hit buttons afterwards. It is safe if spaced properly on block. It is always unsafe if IB'd vs anyone with a 5A faster than 8f.

-Don't stagger your A/B shots on block vs good players. They know how to interrupt it and hit you. Don't do B shots on block, its punishable. A shots are "safe" mainly because of the push back on the last shot. BUT its always punishable by Mitsuru 5A and Droit and if you IB it.

-Don't give up setplay for cute gimmicks. Stable, safe stuff > high reward, one time only tricks.

-SB Roll is not a mix up and its punishable like all of her other reversals. If people let you do it freely, then mash it out, but beware.

But overall your play was good, lack of SMPs hurt your damage output but w/e. You must not be afraid to go in vs a character with bad defense. Having a good offense is super important to complement Naoto's strong defens

[Wild Candy]

Umm... Hopefully this thread is still in use

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Sf4yiq7op8

I'm the Blue Naoto who loses in the end.

Don't hold back with your critique. I need all the help I can get.

[Ichipoo]

ROUND 1

 

0:20 Could've been confirmed into 2C. Maybe you thought 5B wasn't going to hit so you autopiloted into 236A? In any case I'll chalk this up to lol netplay.

 

0:23 Again, another instance where you didn't hitconfirm into something better. I wasn't expecting Bond-like execution where I expected you to do a meterless SMP but confirming into 236B > stuff would've been nice. Again I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk this up to lol netplay.

 

0:25 This is why I personally don't like comboing into the B shots because situations like this happen where they air tech forward and hit you. 236A clearly combo'd from the CH 5C so you could've used A shots since it does more damage.

 

0:26 That burst was too hasty in my opinion.

 

0:35 Not quite sure what you were trying to do as the red Naoto was clearly in a more advantageous position, could've been more patient.

 

0:41 Unfortunate wrong guess.

 

0:45 Short hop j.A > j.B > j.D > stuff; I'm stealing this and you should too.

 

0:54 At that point I would've taken note at how my opponent reacts to my approaches. In this case, the red Naoto upbacks (like most players lol) which can easily be airgrabbed if they're not looking for it.

 

1:00 IMO, 236B isn't really a good move to use on block. Your opponent can DP before the second hit lands. While still a bit unsafe, 236A would've been the better option. Also that shield was a free CH combo for you.

 

1:05 An unfortunate instance where the second hit of 236A didn't quite push the red Naoto into the trap for you to continue your pressure, thus allowing the red Naoto to mash out a shield in between the second hit and the trap. It happens. Also I'm not quite sure what you were trying to do after getting hit by the red Naoto's DP, that airdash j.C was unsafe and you could've mashed out DP as well.

 

ROUND 2

 

I liked your patience at the start of the round.

 

1:26 You could've at least started pressure off of that cross under.

 

1:29 Combo could've been better, like the classic double IAD combo off of a trap or CH 2B starter, nets you at least 3.5k and that's damage you should not be walking away from.

 

1:35 Were you trying to upback in order to stay out of position of the red Naoto's j.C? You were also in a perfect situation where you could've 2B'd the j.C.

 

1:45 Unsafe pressure, it looked like you were auto piloting a bit.

 

1:48 I don't think that safejump attempt by that red Naoto was safe (lol) at all and yet you got hit by the j.C. And again, another questionable burst, especially since the combo wasn't going to be that damaging and you used it outside of Awakening

 

ROUND 3

 

2:28 Remember that your opponents will not respect the tiny gaps you leave in your pressure all the time.

 

2:30 I'm guessing you got scared and mashed DP.

 

2:36 Naoto's corner oki may not be as dangerous as Narukami's or Chie's but it's not something you can just ignore, as situations like this can happen if you try to jump out as you wakeup.