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zeth07

[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion (Pre-Console Release)

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6A has the "repeat proration" comment twice. Valiant Crash says it's an overhead twice as well.

BHS says it has no invul, and then goes on to say it has one frame of invul.

Just a few weird bits I happened to see while reading through.

So nice to have numbers now :D

Thanks, I fixed them.

Just an fyi to everyone if I haven't already mentioned it: Anyone can edit the Wiki. So if you are looking through it and see a minor mistake you can fix it if you want. I would ask however if you plan to make some major change to ask me about it first (through a PM or whatever).

I've added most of what I can so far. The reason I haven't done "Cancel" is because there are some things I don't know what is what so I've left it alone for now. The staff also has to make a new "format" for the moves, which means I'll likely have to go back through them all again anyway, so for now I think it is fine (considering we don't have the game).

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we were discussing why he got hit out of Growler when agito was used.

he was either hit by the physical part of agito or he was hit during the frames where growler doesnt absorb projectile attacks. if the prior if hakumen does it high enough its all projectile and if done low enough its physical/projectile classed.

otherwise ther emay be a point when growler doesnt absorb projectiles.

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If the frame data wasn't enough:

http://youtu.be/GjgrOHO92Tk?t=1m12s

Daifunka completely hit Azrael out of wake-up Scud Punishment, on reaction no less.

So as I was saying, I wouldn't advise using it as a reversal when you could just use Growler. I personally do not think it is worth the difference of the risks.

Just thought I'd mention it again with that clear example.

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The startup is just too slow to be used effectively as a DP. Maybe on reaction to an overhead, or when you're really sure it will hit, but if you really want to DP and got 50% meter to burn then yeah, it's like it was discussed before: Go for Growler and rapid if it gets blocked.

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Besides, if you can punish something feeling confident that you'll hit, there's better stuff you could be doing instead, Especially if you have 50 meter to spare.

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If you use Scud as a raw punisher I'd say you're doing it wrong. Predicting a slow overhead or making a correct read (Let's just say something like Tager 6C haha) You could get some disgusting numbers with a BHS ender. Depending on if you have any points applied.

Though if you are confident in your mixup and feel like taking a giant risk (Or if you're running back the round) Scud may net you a strong 2 Weakpoint combo. But Y'know, it's all in the risk.

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Gonna discuss/input a few things based on the updated frame data

You're the best, zeth

.

Scud is listed as a "fast" (i.e., faster hitstun decay) starter in the frame data, much to my surprise and disappointment. OD version has pretty good P2 though and both are 100 p1 starters so maybe all hope isn't lost?...

Phalanx, the super projectile, is 100 p1 and 7f start-up wtf...

2A, hits low and is +2. I wonder if 2A 5A 2A is possible. FRAME TRAPS

5BB +5 on block, sweet jesus. Too bad the 5B>5BB gatling has a natural gap, or at least it looks like that in some videos.

Air D moves OD cancellable? that could be... interesting. Possibly some kind of low j.D/j.2D > ODC > follow-up? I've seen j.2D used in some videos as a sub-oki move, particularly by Dogura, and it works sometimes so it's not completely useless/nonviable.

I can believe DUMP having 39f start-up but the 46 frame recovery part, though I'm aware it's awaiting clarification, just can't be right. From a lot of footage, the recovery seems far smaller.

Other things I think are hilarious:

- 90% combo rate all the time

- Shortest forward air dash in the game

- forward dash invuln 7-10f (watch your timing!)

Only joking about the forward dash, of course, unless it can reliably be used to ignore certain projectiles in neutral. Mu steins, anyone?

And I'll end with a question: is there any frame data on the taunt?

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Gonna discuss/input a few things based on the updated frame data

You're the best, zeth

.

Scud is listed as a "fast" (i.e., faster hitstun decay) starter in the frame data, much to my surprise and disappointment. OD version has pretty good P2 though and both are 100 p1 starters so maybe all hope isn't lost?...

Phalanx, the super projectile, is 100 p1 and 7f start-up wtf...

2A, hits low and is +2. I wonder if 2A 5A 2A is possible. FRAME TRAPS

5BB +5 on block, sweet jesus. Too bad the 5B>5BB gatling has a natural gap, or at least it looks like that in some videos.

Air D moves OD cancellable? that could be... interesting. Possibly some kind of low j.D/j.2D > ODC > follow-up? I've seen j.2D used in some videos as a sub-oki move, particularly by Dogura, and it works sometimes so it's not completely useless/nonviable.

I can believe DUMP having 39f start-up but the 46 frame recovery part, though I'm aware it's awaiting clarification, just can't be right. From a lot of footage, the recovery seems far smaller.

Other things I think are hilarious:

- 90% combo rate all the time

- Shortest forward air dash in the game

- forward dash invuln 7-10f (watch your timing!)

Only joking about the forward dash, of course, unless it can reliably be used to ignore certain projectiles in neutral. Mu steins, anyone?

And I'll end with a question: is there any frame data on the taunt?

I don't know if you looked at it within the last minutes or just recently in general, but I literally just finished updating it completely with all the translated information. So if you want you can check it out again for anything "new".

Anyone who wants to look at the full frame data can check it out here:

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Azrael_Frame_Data_(BBCP)

Onto the discussion,

-For Scud you have to note that Proration is separate from combo time. The way combos work in BBCP are different now. Like 5A has 100P1, which in Extend would be amazing relatively speaking, but because it is a F starter it isn't really all that great. So generally speaking there wouldn't be much of a reason to worry about Scud "combos" besides it just being used as an ender for both weakpoints.

-Sentinel Dump's recovery is accurate for at least what was given in the mook's frame data.

"T - total. This refers to total duration. Often referring to projectile moves, this refers to however many frames the character (not the projectile!) is stuck in animation."-KayEff

-There is no frame data for his taunt.

-A separate thing to note, it was previously mentioned that OD BHS apparently had full body GP or something along those lines. However, the frame data makes no mention of this but since it does have increased invul. over regular BHS that could be what was actually implied.

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Well damn, I was posting based on literally a few minutes right before you updated it. Shame about there being no frame data for the taunt.

As far as Scud goes, I'll keep dreaming. I still don't think it's completely out of the question, though. Even if you can't follow-up after the hit regardless if it's a starter or used very soon after one or two normals (think Houtenjin) because of the stagger not lasting after the recovery, there is still the possibility to rapid, which could be important if you don't have any weakpoints applied. I'd imagine you'd only want to use the OD version as a combo extender though since the regular version has an awful 10 p2 value mixed in. And another thing to note is that most if not all regular throws are F starters, yet Azrael can still squeeze a fair amount of damage out of one.

Also, on a separate note, is there a notation guide for hitstun? I don't see one on the Azrael frame data page or in the damage or system guides. I figured out most of them intuitively (Ws = wallstick, Wb = wall bounce, B = bounce, D = down, S = stagger, etc.), but I would like to be directed to that or have one put in place.

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Well damn, I was posting based on literally a few minutes right before you updated it. Shame about there being no frame data for the taunt.

As far as Scud goes, I'll keep dreaming. I still don't think it's completely out of the question, though. Even if you can't follow-up after the hit regardless if it's a starter or used very soon after one or two normals (think Houtenjin) because of the stagger not lasting after the recovery, there is still the possibility to rapid, which could be important if you don't have any weakpoints applied. I'd imagine you'd only want to use the OD version as a combo extender though since the regular version has an awful 10 p2 value mixed in. And another thing to note is that most if not all regular throws are F starters, yet Azrael can still squeeze a fair amount of damage out of one.

Also, on a separate note, is there a notation guide for hitstun? I don't see one on the Azrael frame data page or in the damage or system guides. I figured out most of them intuitively (Ws = wallstick, Wb = wall bounce, B = bounce, D = down, S = stagger, etc.), but I would like to be directed to that or have one put in place.

I'm going to assume it will be added to the general frame data pages eventually (as in if you click the category it will take you to that page with explanations). For some of the other frame data categories if you hover over the column name it'll tell you what each one stands for, so that will probably get added eventually.

For now, here's the list as posted by KayEff:

Sd - slidedown. The opponent will get launched while sliding along the ground for however many frames listed.

S - stagger. The opponent will bend over, writhing in bad constipation for however many frames listed, then collapsing to the ground (of constipation).

B - ground bounce. I know this notation is weird, but bear with me. The opponent simply bounces on the ground, easy enough.

Wb - wall bounce. As the notation is, this means the opponent will only wall bounce in the corner (aka corner bounce). If the notation listed is Wb*, then it means the opponent will wall bounce regardless of where you are on the stage.

Ws - wall stick. The numbers here are deceptive; for this case, the number doesn't refer to how long the opponent is stuck, but just simply what the hitstun/untech is. Wall stick will only happen in the corner. All wall stick notations are followed by F(n), which stands for "fall." This represents how long the opponent will be falling in terms of untech. For example, Hakumen's j.C has F(0) after its wall stick, which means the opponent will fall after wall stick for 0F. This allows the opponent to tech immediately after wall stick.

Sp - spin. The opponent does a lovely pirouette and then falls to the ground. I believe spinning has a set amount of hitstun to them, as they're never listed with numbers.

F - float. This is much more of a gaijin term that just means that if an opponent is grounded, he/she will be launched into the air. Nothing more than that.

Fr - freeze. Only applicable to Jin. I don't need to explain it as Jin users already know how this works.

D - down. Once the opponent is grounded, the opponent cannot emergency tech, and any attack during this state will continue the combo. AKA a hard knockdown.

G - ground. The opponent in the air will plummet straight to the ground. This notation does not mean the opponent cannot emergency tech (it should be GD in this case).

And as for Scud again, I still think it is entirely situational besides as an ender. If for some strange reason you do it mid-combo and want to follow-up you have to RC it, and unless the rest of that combo will kill I seriously doubt it would be worth it to blow 100% like that.

If it is somehow possible to follow-up after it as a starter (without RC, maybe if it is the OD version), you are still dealing with an F starter and then who knows how long you have to follow-up which means if you can only do something like 5A it makes it not all that great anyway. Then if it is necessary to RC it no matter what, then I honestly don't think using your whole 100% would be worth it, again unless it kills.

I do however think if it is at all possible to follow-up after it, RC or not / low damage or not, combos for it should still be found out due to that situational scenario that it WILL kill someone with the follow-up combo. Much like with Bang doing Daifunka/Ashura ender and only needing a few more points to kill someone after RCing it.

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Oh yeah, by no means am I saying/implying that it will be the most practical option. I'm well aware that it will be very situational in its use for actually continuing/starting a combo, but it's just something to consider. If I had to guess, the resulting combo would be somewhere from 4-5k non-OD and 5.5-6.5k during OD, assuming you're doing optimal stuff like rekkas into valiant and 6D xx 5D xx 236D and then continuing into hornet in a similar manner.

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I decided to make some changes to the Video Thread again.

I got rid of the collapsed character sections, and instead will only keep videos for up to 2 months for each particular character unless that character barely has any matches anyway. Since the character can develop over time it isn't really necessary to keep matches from the beginning of the game. Doing this makes it easier to browse and the function of being able to search for certain player's matches returns unless they haven't played in a while and their videos were taken off the list.

Besides that, I went ahead and made a separate page offsite (since no character limits) just to keep the entire lists if for whatever reason someone wants to really go through more matches than what's provided. It will also let you search for all the matches of a particular player if you so desired. It's linked in the beginning of the 1st post of the video thread if you ever need to use it.

The player list will stay collapsed since it isn't entirely necessary and let's you get to the match lists faster. And if you were searching for a player you probably already know who they are, and if not then you can just look in the list then search.

I can tell you that the 1st post got so full that it actually caused an error every time when I would try to save an edit from taking so long to "reload" the page, not an actual character limit error. This could've been fixed by making a 3rd post and spreading the lists out further but doing it this way is just much more simple and still effective with plenty of videos.

TL:DR Version: Video Thread changed again.

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wonder who said azrael doesn't have oki?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1lkZii8I3A&feature=player_detailpage#t=230s (sentinel dump was used immediately after the opponent teched so he couldn't avoid it, he had 2 options: block or get hit, if the opponent gets hit they are launched and comboed for around 3k, if they block, they cannot punish and are in a disadvantage because it's ridiculously + on block)

CH 214D launches grounded opponents into the air: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYO_CDNsMB4&feature=player_detailpage#t=210s

j.2D staggers on ground hit so you can follow up for a two weakpoint combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYO_CDNsMB4&feature=player_detailpage#t=314s

this is a strange combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYO_CDNsMB4&feature=player_detailpage#t=453s (he does a low airdash after the 2C, i'm not sure if this is CH exclusive or not, but it looks damn cool)

CH 6C ground bounces aerial opponents, needless to say, you can follow up:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1lkZii8I3A&feature=player_detailpage#t=179s

6C can be followed up WITHOUT CH if the opponent is really high in the air, this can be done against opponents at the tip of their jump or after a throw, it is worth noting only 5A is used in this scenario:http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YnwirYa4SMA#t=198s

I also ask: has any new tech been discovered? did anything new happen other than the frame data and the unlimited video, i haven't watched BB in about a month.

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None of your links work btw.

We actually talked about Sentinel Dump after knockdown about 2 months ago. I still don't think it will work all the time to the point that there's no reason for you to not do it, but I guess we'll see how that evolves.

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Since his links are broken, can anyone lead me to a video with the things you're talking about?

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?15269-CP-Azrael-Gameplay-Discussion-(Discuss-Videos-Combos-Questions-etc-)/page67&p=1463930&viewfull=1#post1463930

That's from when we previously talked about it. Has two different examples. At least in regards to Sentinel Dump.

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Since his links are broken, can anyone lead me to a video with the things you're talking about?

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?15328-CP-Azrael-Combo-Thread&p=1476356&viewfull=1#post1476356

that's my original post with all the links, go to the final 7 links on the post and you'll see what i mean.

i don't even know why the links didn't work

EDIT: nevermind, fixed all the links, go check them out.

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wonder who said azrael doesn't have oki?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1lkZii8I3A&feature=player_detailpage#t=230s (sentinel dump was used immediately after the opponent teched so he couldn't avoid it, he had 2 options: block or get hit, if the opponent gets hit they are launched and comboed for around 3k, if they block, they cannot punish and are in a disadvantage because it's ridiculously + on block)

The opponent rolled there. This only proves what zeth has mentioned before, which is that you can catch a roll if you predict they're going to roll. If they emergency tech or do a late neutral tech, they can probably invuln through it.

CH 214D launches grounded opponents into the air: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYO_CDNsMB4&feature=player_detailpage#t=210s

Yeah and so does non-CH, look at the frame data. The CH version is only worth noting since it adds 40 more frames of untechable time.

this is a strange combo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYO_CDNsMB4&feature=player_detailpage#t=453s (he does a low airdash after the 2C, i'm not sure if this is CH exclusive or not, but it looks damn cool)

It's a strange combo because it's a bad combo. He could have just done rekkas into link 5B > Aerial in the corner like you're supposed to.

On another note, this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=__lD7ZiRuao#t=578s

5A starter, upper weakpoint, OD, 50 heat. Just the basic 6D xx 5D xx 236D into 5C x 5 combo nets 5.7k so Azrael can, quite literally, 5A to 5k. I only note this because 5A is a 'fast' starter but you can still squeeze a healthy amount of damage out of it. OD BHS stupid minimum damage helps a lot though, wwwwwwww

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Yeah that shit is frame 7-24 body invuln. Anything with a body attribute that isn't an A normal is just going to lose.

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Yeah that shit is frame 7-24 body invuln. Anything with a body attribute that isn't an A normal is just going to lose.

Sorry but I don't get it. Is hitting Azrael out of it during the 7-24f or before?

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Sorry but I don't get it. Is hitting Azrael out of it during the 7-24f or before?

Pretty sure it's before

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