[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion (Pre-Console Release)

[AMB Bakery]

Well, most moves that aren't A normals have more than 7f startup, usually anywhere from 9-13 or even more depending on what kind of move it is. The invuln kicks in at frame 7 and lasts for 15 frames, giving Azrael a pretty healthy window of just being able to demolish anything with a body attribute.

There's an explanation of "attributes" on the wiki. The invuln lasts from the early frames of start up to more than half of the active frames and beats most (if not all) attacks that targets the body attribute.

[helix]

could somebbody please direct me to place that will actually EXPLAIN how proration works ? there is an article that teachs how to read frame data but nothing about proration.

i couldn't understand what all that stuff mean, what is p1 ? what is p2 ? what is the purpose of those numbers under them ? what is an F starter ? what is proration ? what purpose does it serve ? is there anything else i need to know ? please help me.

[toanenadiz]

This page on the wiki explains it

[helix]

This page on the wiki explains it

thank you.

i also just started looking at the frame data and noticed some stuff:

5C is -3 on block, but in the official frame data, it was stated that max range 5C is 0 on block, the start-up of max range 5C is also 18 frames as opposed to 15 frames.

how can 2C, 3C, 6A, 6B and 6C have better p2 than p1, is it a typing error or is it legit?

why aren't attack levels listed ?

what is an F starter and what is an N starter ?

5BB ground bounces on CH, no need for confirmation.

it should be noted that 6C ground bounces aerial opponents on CH and that it has different frame data against crouching opponents (start-up 32 and +6 on block)

how did you get the full frame data when the frame data a few pages ago didn't have all that information ?

why don't you list the head invulnerablity and when it starts for 6B and 2C ?

you should probably note that sentinel dump GP starts at the first frame up to the ninth frame.

you should probably note that 214D is an anti air.

6A is listed to have 19 frames of start-up when nokita stated it was 20 frames of start-up, the same applies to 5B, it is listed as +2 on nokita's list, when you have it as 0 on block, 6B is stated by nokita to be 12 frames on start-up, but you listed it as 13 frames, start-up of 3D on nokita's list is 25 frames, but you list it as 24 frames, you have 6D listed as 27 frames of start-up when nokita stated it was 26 frames of start-up.

and by "you" i mean zeth.

EDIT: the attack level question was answered when i saw the full frame data page though.

[AMB Bakery]

Okay helix, I'm going to go ahead and answer a lot of your questions by telling you something you probably don't know:

There's this thing called a "mook" (portmonteau of 'magazine' and 'book') that gets released for fighting games. The BBCP mook contains frame data for every single character as well as their air and ground revolver tables. The BBCP mook was released on 3/29 and our good friend Kurushii received a copy a few days later. Currently, his scans of the mook are being distributed to all the moderators of the character subforums so that they can update the wiki.

All of the information from the mook is accurate unless reasonably and wholly proven otherwise. So the P1 and P2 values are all correct.

5C and 'max-range' 5C are not different moves so they can't have different start-up. However, max-range 5C might connect later in the active frames, meaning that it wouldn't be as minus as it normally is, kind of like a meaty.

This section on the same exact page explains it. F = fast, N = normal. Though I just noticed that page on the wiki has been edited, so it might have been a little confusing so I don't blame you. Originally the second table was 'Slow' 'Normal' 'Fast' and 'Moment' which would explain the 'M' you see on counter assault.

Again, the frame data is different because the active frames connect at a later time than normal, not because it has more start-up. The active frames are when the move's attacking box are present, don't forget.

The head invuln is listed, check the 'Invul' column on the far right.

Same way for GP, it's listed under 'Invul'

What is and isn't an 'anti-air' is one's opinion and has no business being on the frame data page. And to be honest, it doesn't make for the best anti-air due to how slow it is. You'd have to be really reading your opponent hard in order to AA with hornet.

And of course, this question should be answered due to the introduction of the mook. Nokita wasn't far off though, so I applaud him.

[zeth07]

and by "you" i mean zeth.

I changed the things that were relevant.

The frame data stuff was already mentioned, but just in case I went back and double checked to make sure I didn't make a mistake and everything you mentioned is right with what was given in the mook. The mook can have errors, but because it is the "official" release of the frame data I am going by that data until any possible errors are officially acknowledged.

EDIT: The starter rating was changed from what was given in the mook. I had everything already entered from the mook and even asked about the change myself since I wasn't sure why it was changed, but the admins/super mods decided to change how they were labelled. There wasn't a clear decision about it to my knowledge after I asked, but that has now been clarified so I have gone back and made the necessary changes. If you're still curious about what is what, you can just click the "Starter" column and it'll take you to the page to give you a full explanation.

[AMB Bakery]

This is what yomi looks like.

[zeth07]

He also wins with the 3C>RC>j.A mixup that we haven't really seen much of, if at all, even though it was mentioned early on of the character.

http://youtu.be/LUD6I8eHz5s?t=2m31s

I don't think anyone is blocking that mixup. Definitely something to keep in mind when the situation comes up.

[AMB Bakery]

For good reason. That mix-up is unreactable. You'd have to know they're going to spend their meter that way to even hope to see it coming. Even then, it's a 7 frame gap you have to switch from blocking low to blocking overhead. I wouldn't doubt that 3C > RC > j.B might be possible, given good enough execution and really close proximity.

[LegendaryRath]

I could see people beginning to block high after a blocked 3C, if that mixup becomes more prevalent. At that point I guess we would start going low.

I wonder how much that would get, since we should be able to sentinel dump that crouching confirm.

[Lucalibur]

Not only that, but we are talking about a 90 P1 N starter according to the wiki. That is 3K meterless easily on a croucher, and well over 4K with any weak point.

[AMB Bakery]

I can't believe it took me this long to remember this: Azrael is Gargamel's cat from the Smurfs.....

[LegendaryRath]

Until lately I haven't seen many Azraels attempt the double weakpoint application combos. In the videos Zeth posted in the video thread Pet manages to do stuff like this several times. I'm glad this stuff is going the direction of becoming common use.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=p2VD8AOnwLw#t=386s

[BladeOfJustice7]

It's the first time I'm watching Arakune vs Azrael, it seems that it's a tricky matchup for Arakune due to growler field similarly to how Zanshin/Yukikaze gives him s hard time.

[LegendaryRath]

After watching that match I couldn't help but think how amazing azrael would be against Ex arakune. Curse would be close to worthless.

[BladeOfJustice7]

After watching that match I couldn't help but think how amazing azrael would be against Ex arakune. Curse would be close to worthless.

While I can't remembers how Unl. Arakune works, it seems that Arakune himself need sot use more ambiguous physical attacks when trying to open Azrael during curse mode, since he'll just eat his curse time, literally. Which is find is what the opposite has been when pressure Hakumen when he has Yukikaze on deck, since it's better to try and pressure him with insects and/or mix it up with physical normals since he doesn't want to waste Yukikaze on insects so Arakune can dodge.

Have there been any other noticeable matchups in Azrael's favour?

[zeth07]

While I can't remembers how Unl. Arakune works, it seems that Arakune himself need sot use more ambiguous physical attacks when trying to open Azrael during curse mode, since he'll just eat his curse time, literally. Which is find is what the opposite has been when pressure Hakumen when he has Yukikaze on deck, since it's better to try and pressure him with insects and/or mix it up with physical normals since he doesn't want to waste Yukikaze on insects so Arakune can dodge.

Have there been any other noticeable matchups in Azrael's favour?

Possibly Rachel/Amane/Bullet.

I wouldn't really base the Arakune match-up on that one video, although it did show that Growler can be useful. I'd advise going through the video thread and watch all the Vs. Arakune ones and then decide. Since another Arakune player might know how to deal with that better than the one he played against.

[AMB Bakery]

I know about Azrael's bad match-ups. Hazama, Litchi, Tager, Hakumen, and Valkenhayn (imo). Good Match-ups that I've seen are Noel, Makoto, Ragna, Tsubaki, Rachel, and Tao (again, imo. It's the only top tier character that he can somewhat compete against.) Otherwise it's just how he either abuses neutral or conditions in terms of mix-ups or both. If he can't do one or the other, then it's probably bad. Characters that have good zoning tools (Hazama, Nu, or movement in the case of Valk) or counter-active space control (Tager, Hakumen, Litchi).

The main reason I think Tao is not as bad of a match-up as Valk is because of Azrael 6C. It stuffs a lot of Tao's mobility, and beats anything without head invuln. 5B and 2C also help. For some reason, Valk can just deal with this better than Tao, or avoid and get in easier. Though, I do think it's crucial to not let Tao get a good knockdown in, as it's hard to get out of her pressure. It might not be a good match-up entirely, but it's notable since it's one of the few top-tier cases where he doesn't have a clearly unfavorable match-up.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Possibly Rachel/Amane/Bullet.

I wouldn't really base the Arakune match-up on that one video, although it did show that Growler can be useful. I'd advise going through the video thread and watch all the Vs. Arakune ones and then decide. Since another Arakune player might know how to deal with that better than the one he played against.

Will do. I was just caught off guard by how effective growler was in those situations.

I know about Azrael's bad match-ups. Hazama, Litchi, Tager, Hakumen, and Valkenhayn (imo). Good Match-ups that I've seen are Noel, Makoto, Ragna, Tsubaki, Rachel, and Tao (again, imo. It's the only top tier character that he can somewhat compete against.) Otherwise it's just how he either abuses neutral or conditions in terms of mix-ups or both. If he can't do one or the other, then it's probably bad. Characters that have good zoning tools (Hazama, Nu, or movement in the case of Valk) or counter-active space control (Tager, Hakumen, Litchi).

This I've noticed though I wouldn't list Ragna and Rachel as slightly advantageous matchups for him from what I've seen.

[LegendaryRath]

I wouldn't really base the Arakune match-up on that one video, although it did show that Growler can be useful.

I was just pretty excited to see a tool effectively neutralize one aspect of another characters game. Similarly, I feel like the first Teddie that realized he could B+D all major forms of oki. It doesn't make the matchup free, but it's certainly good to have

After thinking about the matchup some more, I feel that Azrael may be able to fair pretty well with arakune in neutral. He has good air to air normals that hit a variety of areas (j.C looking like it could be good here) that seem to be good for jumpy arakunes, where CH could potentially lead to big damage and 2 weakpoints with a rapid. Considering our high damage output and how scary we can be once we get in, it could be pretty one sides once we lock arakune down.

Please take this with a grain of salt, as well as anything else I post. Given that we don't have the game yet, it's only speculation until we get an abundance of good footage, especially with how rare arakune players are.

[samthegreat]

Meh... Match up with Rachel isn't that bad I think. His DP (or whatever it is) is good against her but there are ways to counter it on oki (fork). Other than that his mobility makes him easy to zone.

Maybe it's just me but I'm not really worried. The characters that can keep her from summoning pumpkin safely from a distance on large portions of the screen are the ones I find hard to deal with.

[BladeOfJustice7]

Meh... Match up with Rachel isn't that bad I think. His DP (or whatever it is) is good against her but there are ways to counter it on oki (fork). Other than that his mobility makes him easy to zone.

Maybe it's just me but I'm not really worried. The characters that can keep her from summoning pumpkin safely from a distance on large portions of the screen are the ones I find hard to deal with.

That's what I was thinking along the lines of. Hakumen at least can make it hard to summon coupled with ability to negate her oki negates his somewhat lack of mobility. Which is Azrael doesn't necessarily have, unless they buff gustav.

Other than that I'm really impressed with how they handled Azrael in his first iteration of the game, the last time we had a character like Azrael was Hakumen in CT, who was incomplete. Similar in the sense of close range fighters with limited mobility and ranged options.

[YukiBlue]

Can't Azrael just BHS Rachel's summons? Buffer that motion all day erry day

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[AMB Bakery]

Even if that was the case, I don't think that's why he shines in the match-up. Backdash, Growler (and Phalanx), 5B, and 5C all seem to help Azrael a lot. Sure, if he gets knocked down in the corner, he'll have to deal with retarded Rachel oki for days. Her zoning just isn't as strong against Azrael as opposed to Hazama or Nu or Mu. Again, she can play even more lame (i.e., run away) if she has wind, but it's easy to exhaust that resource. Plus, she's sacrificing the wind she could be using for pressure, combos, or zoning with pumpkin or wind + cannon.

If anything, I'd say George is probably the most trouble for Azrael. His slow movement just can't get around it very easily, forcing him to either deal with it or absorb with Growler, both of which are unfavorable options. Now, George does give you full charges of Phalanx for free, but it also locks you in place, which is what Rachel wants, and the recovery after absorbing is punishable.

Otherwise, outside of a couple of pesky zoning tools, Azrael can really dominate neutral. 5B range is optimal, but 5C and low IAD j.C or j.B is acceptable too, depending on position.

My two cents~

[Putin]

http://youtu.be/HvcH56VFYRk?t=1m46s

5A > Gustaf > 5A > TCL

wat

Probably suboptimal if 5B > 3C works on FC, but kinda interesting