[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion (Pre-Console Release)

[Solless]

I assume you're talking about the yellow Azreal, and that's Tahichi.

And I believe that was a 623C Sentinel he did. 22C tracks a downed, but the 623C moves Az 2 character spaces forward. Since Relius was in the air I don't know if that counts as a downed state.

[zeth07]

Thank you kindly

One player (can't remember who) also won the round with 3C>RC>j.A mixup. It's nothing new, but I've rarely seen it in action.

In the Top 8 vid around 01:26 Azrael does [LW]5A>5B>2C>3D>6A>DUMP>TCL>Gustaf (3801). But in that combo, the Dump moved him to the other side. If he had remained on the same side, he could've done maybe TCL(reach corner)>5B>air stuff. So was that a 22C Dump that he did in the vid? Would 623C work as well?

Tahichi is one of the few people to actually do this, I'm going to guess that's who it was since he was on the winning team of the tournament.

I'm guessing it was 623C, 22C is only supposed to work on a "downed" opponent. I think it gets a little weird with valiant combos though. But I'm obviously not 100% sure.

Which is why I'm trying to go back through the combo thread since there's a lot of sentinel dumps in valiant combos and it's hard to know which one it is otherwise, and I'm sure some inputs should be 623C instead of 22C.

[Yuhoke]

I'm guessing it was 623C, 22C is only supposed to work on a "downed" opponent. I think it gets a little weird with valiant combos though. But I'm obviously not 100% sure.

It got me thinking that maybe 22C works like Tagers 22D? As in it can be activated on downed and airborne opponents.

[Solless]

Looking at the footage, I think he does the Sentinel about 4-5 hits in, and it does roughly around 200 damage. Granted we don't know the move's proration but I think that means that he did 22C, as it's starting damage is around 600. Well, that's if I read the wiki right.

Edit: However, it says that the frame advantage (I guess on hit) is +2 with 22C, while +12 as 623C. Looking at that, the 1000 damage it does raw, and the damage it does in the combo, I now take it back and say it's 623C.

[AMB Bakery]

Disregarding the math and conditions, just from seeing it enough I can tell it's the 22C version. 22C version animation has Azrael rocketing over to the opponent, 623C version looks like a short hop. As for how he did it, it probably works similar to Platinum 22C. The opponent doesn't have to be downed for it to work, they just have to have been downed at one point in the combo. In this case, I think the 3D ground-bounce was the trigger.

[zeth07]

Disregarding the math and conditions, just from seeing it enough I can tell it's the 22C version. 22C version animation has Azrael rocketing over to the opponent, 623C version looks like a short hop. As for how he did it, it probably works similar to Platinum 22C. The opponent doesn't have to be downed for it to work, they just have to have been downed at one point in the combo. In this case, I think the 3D ground-bounce was the trigger.

3D ground-bounce isn't "Downed" though.

Just going by the frame data the moves have specific hitstun states, like G = Ground Slam but D = Hard Knockdown / Downed (3C does this). So 3D weakpoint can be either B for Ground Bounce or GB for Ground Slam>Ground Bounce if you're hitting them out of the air (like in combos). So unless 22C doesn't go straight by definition of "downed", 3D shouldn't count for 22C. 2D weakpoint on the other hand does cause a downed state, so I'm guessing you could technically link 22C after it just as an example.

I'm still guessing it is 623C because there's plenty of time to link it after 6A wall bounce anyway.

[Kinkuli]

Hello! First time poster, long time lurker here!

I have to agree with AMB Bakery on this one and say it's 22C. From what i have tried in arcade, you can use 22C in some situations even though the opponent is not in downed state, like in valiant combos after 6A - 3C - dump or 3C - 6A - dump. This would lead me to believe that 22C can also be used on downed opponents, wallsticked opponents and wallbounced opponents. To be sure, I can probably go test it out on Friday when im near Central Hachioji arcade anyways.

PS. Yuhoke pm me! I need to hook you up with other finns who are gonna get the game!

[Yuhoke]

Oh hey, it's you! One pm, coming up!

[zeth07]

Hello! First time poster, long time lurker here!

I have to agree with AMB Bakery on this one and say it's 22C. From what i have tried in arcade, you can use 22C in some situations even though the opponent is not in downed state, like in valiant combos after 6A - 3C - dump or 3C - 6A - dump. This would lead me to believe that 22C can also be used on downed opponents, wallsticked opponents and wallbounced opponents. To be sure, I can probably go test it out on Friday when im near Central Hachioji arcade anyways.

PS. Yuhoke pm me! I need to hook you up with other finns who are gonna get the game!

Cool, let us know if you decide to go there. Although there's only a few more days left before console import so we'll know sooner rather than later lol.

[Kinkuli]

Ok so i went to central hachioji to test few things out regarding 22C etc.

So what i found out was that wallstick or wallbounce have nothing to do with being able to do 22C, so my belief was completely wrong. Yuhoke is correct in that 22C can be used on downed AND airborne opponents IF they have downed state. Basicly like AMB Bakery said 3D also inflicts downed state so you can use 22C after it like in the video. The state probably carries over till the end of the combo so you can do hits before doing 22C and so on.

I only tested it out shortly but some moves(other than 3C) that also enable the usage of 22C were forward throw, 6D and 3D which are probably the most important ones. The info itself probably is already known by japanese players as the combos i was able to do were inferior to BnBs that you can see in most Azrael matches. Azrael's BnBs seem pretty optimized already so there probably isn't that much usage for 22C in combos damage-wise. BUT what i did notice was that you can actually use 22C to swap positions! So lets say you stand in a corner, have lw on opponent and confirm 5B - 2C - 3D starter. From here doing the normal combo carries the opponent away from corner but if you do 6A - 22C and time it correctly you can continue the combo towards the corner you just stood in. You can also see this in the video which started the discussion. With UW it seemed like you cannot do 5B - 2C - 6D - 6A - 22C because opponent won't bounce high enough from 6D for 6A - 22C to be comboable. I might be wrong on this one and i'll probably test it out again after i get the console version.

You can also do the position swap from forward throw by doing throw - 6A - 22C and so on. Like said damage-wise these seemed to be inferior to current BnBs but i think it is good to know these options as you can pretty easily get opponent to the corner with this. I hope all this made sense!

EDIT: Forgot to mention that during valiant combos you can use 22C only after 3C. It basicly inflicts the downed state on opponent even though he's also in wallstick state. So if you wanna do dump loop then you need to use 623C!

[zeth07]

Thanks for all the info Kinkuli, that's kinda interesting and weird lol.

[Yuhoke]

Cool! Thanks again, Kinkuli.

[skd]

yeah, for other "only usable on grounded opponent" moves, as far as ragna is concerned certain moves can just straight up trigger it without having the opponent touch the ground, so if it wasnt a hard knockdown state or something like that i wouldnt be surprised.

[Solless]

Just so I am clear before the release. In order to follow up Valiant Crash with valiant charger is only when opponents have an upper weak point applied, or can lower weak points also set off the charge?

Also: What does UNB mean in the wiki?

[zeth07]

Just so I am clear before the release. In order to follow up Valiant Crash with valiant charger is only when opponents have an upper weak point applied, or can lower weak points also set off the charge?

Also: What does UNB mean in the wiki?

It only works with upper weakpoint, as described in the move descriptions in the character overview thread and the wiki.

UNB means unblockable. I'm guessing you are looking at it in reference to Hornet and Valiant, which means the guard points of those moves cannot work against unblockable attacks.

[LegendaryRath]

The matchup threads look great!

[NumeroGaijin]

Do you think that he will be able to absorb Kokonoes beam?

[Solless]

Which beam? Ice? Lightning?

[zeth07]

Do you think that he will be able to absorb Kokonoes beam?

Probably, pretty sure Platinum's bubble is the only exception to the rule but I don't even think it counts as a "normal" projectile.

[Koopa_Klawz]

Do you think that he will be able to absorb Kokonoes beam?

That's going to be so hype to do.

[Kibafool]

Probably, pretty sure Platinum's bubble is the only exception to the rule but I don't even think it counts as a "normal" projectile.

It doesn't since Hakumen just destroys it when he pokes it.

I don't think he'd be able to absorb Kokonoe's Beam Distortion because of multiple hits or different property on it.

[Solless]

It doesn't since Hakumen just destroys it when he pokes it.

I don't think he'd be able to absorb Kokonoe's Beam Distortion because of multiple hits or different property on it.

I suppose a good way to test this against Noel's Fenrir DD or against Arakune with full curse filling the screen with bugs, that would be a good way to test the multiple hits theory or if growler field has a upper limit on how many projectiles it can absorb.

[Yuhoke]

I've seen Growler absorb all hits from Nu's multiple swords super, so that's something.

[AMB Bakery]

I downloaded the nicovideo showing how weakpoints work with guardpoint and atemi moves. It also shows some growler shenanigans at the end with Bang's steel rain. During the absorption, Azrael cannot be hit or grabbed. I'll upload it to youtube later if zeth doesn't find anything in the meantime.

[LegendaryRath]

I actually saw a picture somewhere OF AZRAEL ABSORBING THE BEAM. Have no clue where though. lemme look around.

edit: here

http://www.famitsu.com/images/000/041/937/526242cdb4c1a.html

http://www.famitsu.com/images/000/041/937/526242cdc710f.html