[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion (Pre-Console Release)

[YukiBlue]

Quick enough reactions could stop Four Wind neutral approaches dead in their tracks. Seems mad skill based.

[MetalMaelstrom]

Is it possible to DUMP after rekkas? It seems like it would be reasonable to do outside of the corner for oki, assuming it has really fast recovery.

[zeth07]

Is it possible to DUMP after rekkas? It seems like it would be reasonable to do outside of the corner for oki, assuming it has really fast recovery.

My guess is probably no.

Sentinel Dump works like Ragna's and Noel's 22C, has the same input as well in the usual instance it is used, and the opponent has to be "downed". I don't think TCL causes a downed state, and can't think of anything in particular that would allow for it to work that way after any of the follow-ups to TCL. Most of the time the attacks that typically lead into 22C, are used when the opponent is in a "neutral" state, and any other places you see them mid-combo the opponent is being combo'd in mid-air.

There was this combo however,

-[uW] 5A > 5B > 2C > 6D > 6A > forward dash > 5A > TCL > 3C = 3,671 DM

It ends in 3C, and 3C is what is pretty much always used before 22C. I would assume in that combo you couldn't tack it on the end cause of proration or something else, but what if the starter was something else earlier in the combo instead?

Another thing to consider is what kind of oki would that actually give compared to the other enders you typically see, would it even make a difference to actually try and end the combo with that?

The basic combo theory seems like,

-Any standing combos go directly into TCL ender or 6D/3D enders for weakpoint, or extended with the weakpoint into Aerial ender.

-Any crouching combos go into 3C > 22C, and gets a weakpoint with Aerial ender, or gets extended with a drive move THEN into Aerial ender.

The main point is almost always ending with a weakpoint ender, and the only time that isn't the case is if you decide end with TCL because you have no weakpoint to extend the combo in the first place. I can't really think of a scenario where you would want to or be able to end with 22C.

The one thing I haven't talked about is the fact that you can do Sentinel Dump with 623C as well, and I'm assuming that is at neutral and when used on it's own as a "starter", but I can't recall ever seeing that in any matches and have never seen it listed anywhere (EDIT: as being used in combos). Who knows how that move works independently.

That's just my thoughts on it.

[MetalMaelstrom]

No, no, no, I don't mean TCL > DUMP actually comboing, I mean doing it as some kind of ghetto meaty. I do agree, it seems that you generally want to do something like stuff > 2C > 6D/3D or stuff > 3C > 22C xx 5A/5B > air combo. But sometimes it really is just easy to confirm normals into rekka, but the problem with that is that it almost puts you back at neutral. Most of the time after rekkas, you just see the Az player forward dashing x N, so I was wondering if DUMP (22C or 623C version) could serve as some kind of alternative, if frame data allows it. It would be really ideal if DUMP was some kind of hybrid-projectile like 2C and had active frames even during Azrael's recovery.

EDIT: here's a clip of Hekisa FUCKING IT UP but still proving that DUMP has very little recovery: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzmFOhXcGoI&feature=player_detailpage#t=151s

The main thing I'm observing here though is that it looks like it pushes back too much for some of his faster normals to follow-up. Case in point, he whiffs 5B and eats CH for it

[Nokita]

About sentinel dump,

* 22C version tracks the opponent (as zeth said,the opponent needs to be in a downed state first.)

623C makes azrael jump about 2 character spaces forward.

Can cross up if opponent is crouching.

Seems to have a hitbox on both sides.

* Attack attribute seems to be projectile.tager can sledge it.

* Has full body guard point against strikes,projectiles and apparently throws during start up.

* GP duration is short making it kind of hard to use under pressure.

Loses cleanly to multi hitting moves or rapid fired jabs for example.

OD BHS:

*OD version of BHS has full body GP during start up.

Can follow up with 2C on CH close to the corner.(character specific)

22C and phalanx work,too.

*Leads to about 9K for a weak hit confirm by the time OD runs out.

OD BHS CH>OD BHS does about 5.7k damage.

*5A seems to be 6F.

Trades with ragna's 5A after a blocked gustaf buster.

[STenSatsu]

Wonder if there are any weird tricks we can do with 22c a la Plat's downed state attack.

[MetalMaelstrom]

Loses cleanly to multi hitting moves or rapid fired jabs for example.

You're talking about if you were to use this during pressure strings right? So, to be clear: guard point on start-up, projectile on active?

Thank you for the information.

*Leads to about 9K for a weak hit confirm by the time OD runs out.

Uhh, what? What about 9k is weak? Care to extrapolate this sentence a little bit?

[STenSatsu]

Probably meant weak point.

[Nokita]

You're talking about if you were to use this during pressure strings right? So, to be clear: guard point on start-up, projectile on active?

Thank you for the information.

Yes,GP on start up + some sort of throw invincibility and projectile on active.

Well,the shock wave or whatever is a projectile.Could be that the actual stomp (like,azrael himself) has different properties.

Doesn't seem to be the case at the moment,though.

GP lasts until he stretches his legs to jump up.

Uhh, what? What about 9k is weak? Care to extrapolate this sentence a little bit?

Weak as in unoptimized follow ups after the super.

He went for the basic rekka combo,then pressed a couple of buttons and somehow ended up with 9K by the time his OD gauge ran out.

He feels that breaking 10k shouldn't be a problem at all.

[MetalMaelstrom]

Weak as in unoptimized follow ups after the super.

He went for the basic rekka combo,then pressed a couple of buttons and somehow ended up with 9K by the time his OD gauge ran out.

He feels that breaking 10k shouldn't be a problem at all.

Oh, word? This is OD CH? On a super that has full guard-point on start-up? Highly situational, but this sounds reminiscent of the damage you'd get from CH DoT.

[zeth07]

Oh, word? This is OD CH? On a super that has full guard-point on start-up? Highly situational, but this sounds reminiscent of the damage you'd get from CH DoT.

That was exactly what I was thinking.

EDIT:

つまりODBHSはスレイヤーのDOTｃｈと同じと見ていいか？

Lol, sounds like someone else was asking the same thing.

[LegendaryRath]

This is what I was talking about earlier how drives could be the optimal punishes. Start a combo as if you had a weakpoint and still get to use it later. Pet (I think it's Pet) get's 3.8k easy this way. If he included 6A, and TCL, it's well within reason that he could have gotten 5k+ meterless.

I feel like there are tons of options for this combo. Whether you include Hornet, apply the 2nd weakpoint, TCL > BHS, ect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wE7iuwONHxg#t=664s

Also here, with the UW applied he punishes with the LW giving him both and a full combo (Well, if he didn't burst or had more health). Scary stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wE7iuwONHxg#t=749s

[LegendaryRath]

6D and 3D both seem like amazing punishes. Looking at this, I'm thinking that it could be possible (without any weakpoints) to CH 6D into valiant. Maybe something like 6D > 6A > dash > [5B] > TC > Valiant > stuff. I'm not 100% solid on all the inputs for the moves, but I know all of them. Hope I got my idea across alright.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wE7iuwONHxg#t=799s

Even with how he started this combo with the second 6D, I bet he could have gotten some scary nuts damage following with 6A.

Hornet looks like it has some viability as an anti-air after all. on CH you can follow up, keeping the weakpoint. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wE7iuwONHxg#t=878s

[MetalMaelstrom]

Yeah your last clip confirms if anything that Hornet is either really fast or has a fuckton of priority. Regarding 6D/3D, I'm not so sure that they would make the best punishes, per se, but for right now they ground bounce and Az players right now know how to combo from that. Eventually there will be 5C/6C fatal combos for each situation, though it might be possible that, without weakpoints, 6D/3D would be the optimal CH starter.

Honestly, I like 3D more because, as I've said before it's got to be the trickiest low I've seen in this game. His pose literally screams "okay 6D is coming, better block overhead!" The other reason it's really good is because it's faster and has seemingly longer reach. This helps it fulfill its application as a braindead backwards roll-punish and also as a ghetto frame-trap.

EDIT: Also....

Hornet looks like it has some viability as an anti-air after all.

Fucking called it.

[LegendaryRath]

I like 3D a lot more as a punish because of the possibility of doing swag Hornet combos. I don't think it's far fetched to think that a Ch 3D or 6D could combo into hornet or Valiant, respectively.

[Daisy-Fan]

I think to sub him, i will sure try to play him first after play CP.

[psycofang2]

im really enjoying the fact hes fleshing out so well.

condition someone right and youll keep em guessing, for whatever its worth.

i didnt like that Az vs tsubaki vid...or was it ragna? w/e he had both weaknesses applied, 50 heat BHS would have killed and...they didnt do it...:~;

from the look of it, i havent seen nor looked for his frame data, he can possibly frame trap you like hakumen can, possibly not as well as hakumen but close enough, keep them still to mix up on them.

or get them to freak out and start jumping either or, from the look of things he has ways to shut you down as long as he can get in.

And the fact that can CAN link makes him more dangerous for obvious reasons.

[LegendaryRath]

I saw several instances lately where the opponent was in a perfect block sting and they went into BHS. All the opponent had to do to get out was Counter Assault. Unblockable BHS setups seem pretty terrible and useless. I'm willing to guess that most players know of at least a few ways t get out of his by now, and they generally don't want to blow 50-100 meter on something that wont work.

EDIT: Here's an example of what I mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tC44mdUk6FU#t=1000s

[psycofang2]

no i mean he was ACROSS the screen within BHS range while tsubaki was charging.

like if IAD j2C can CH from that range he definitely could have BHS'd. but instead he ran up to tsubaki.

tsubaki.

the DP mashing purple tsubaki.

the ones thats pretty famouse for mashing DP and never getting baited.

THAT tsubaki.

that no one baits her DPS, at all for some damn reason.

[Errol]

no i mean he was ACROSS the screen within BHS range while tsubaki was charging.

like if IAD j2C can CH from that range he definitely could have BHS'd. but instead he ran up to tsubaki.

tsubaki.

the DP mashing purple tsubaki.

the ones thats pretty famouse for mashing DP and never getting baited.

THAT tsubaki.

that no one baits her DPS, at all for some damn reason.

hater

[psycofang2]

hater

you cant hate

what is true

i am hakumen

you will eat quadro triple S teir damage

so step in line

and fall back

let a champ walk through.

also i love scud punishment combos omg when he landed that i tensed up.

[LegendaryRath]

no i mean he was ACROSS the screen within BHS range while tsubaki was charging.

My bad, for some reason my mind went straight to BHS unblockables.

[zeakikung]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SaCvV5Cw8Qg#t=87s

Does Azrael have guard point while absorbing projectile?

[LegendaryRath]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=SaCvV5Cw8Qg#t=87s

Does Azrael have guard point while absorbing projectile?

While absorbing projectiles he is gains invincibility. It's particularly helpful to null Rachl's corner oki, as an example.

[Sechs]

Sorry if this question has been posted before>

Will Azrael be a able to perform 236B after performing 214B against a hybrid move that just happens to have projectile properties like Hakumen's Agito?