[CP] Azrael - Gameplay Discussion (Pre-Console Release)

[AMB Bakery]

Hardest (though not necessarily worst) match-ups are probably Litchi, Hazama, Mu, Amane, and Hakumen. On Mu and Amane, it's just bad when you're not in their face. Easiest match-ups are probably Noel, Makoto, Rachel, and Carl. I only say Carl not because the match-up is wildly in Azrael's favor, but because a) every button you press with Azrael actively destroys nee-san (doll) and b) Carl has low life, which means you only need to touch Carl 2 or 3 times before he's dead. As for Bang, I don't know.

In general, though, I'd say it's characters with better normals or spacing tools (or ones that just mess with his game-plan) that he tends to have trouble with. Rush-down characters or ones that rely on projectiles (for oki or otherwise) tend to be better for him.

Highest combo potential in the game probably goes to Tao or OD Jin, imo.

[zeth07]

Thank you very much, all of you who replied to my post .

So i guess i should thouroughly check the combo thread then if it can teach me a thing or two .

Also, zeth, i did check the character overview a bunch of times, but i didn't completely underrstand the moves so i just asked .

By the way guys, i know it is a bit too early to start saying this, but from what you have seen, what do you think Azrael's hardest/easiest matchups are, and i specifically want to know his match up with Bang ( i'm sorry for asking too much questions)

I've just noticed as well that you can apply two weakpoints in one combo without meter without using throw as well by watching that combo video jourdal posted a while ago( however you still needed a weakpoint already applied fo that to happen )

I am starting to think that Azrael has the highest combo potential in the game ( i already have seen, read, and thought up more than a 100 combos by now )

It is fine to ask questions, I just want to make sure people are reading the things that already have the information provided for you.

The character overview explained the moves in basic detail (how to do them), while the combo thread went into further detail with an entire section in the combo theory part dedicated to Valiant Charger/Hornet Chaser, explaining them further. Then there's an entire section for combos that give both weakpoints. There's also mention of tough match-ups in the character overview, but since that's more of an open-ended question it is open for discussion since there's no exact answer.

That was my reasoning at least.

[YukiBlue]

Bang vs Azrael? From pure speculation I'd say it would be completely 5-5.

Azrael hits damn hard and likes to stay on the opponent to fuck shit up, Bang has very weak defensive options so those naturally go hand in hand. Once Azrael gets in it might be a weird game of spacing with Bang unable to use a reversal without the use of 50 heat.

But Bang is fast as hell and hits damn hard in CP. His mixups are a lot better and his Oki is without a doubt stronger (Though it's nothing to brag about) So I'd just assume the best player will win this matchup.

Naturally. His worst matchup looks like Hazama. He had Mobility, damage, Mixups and pressure. And his only true weakness (Low Midscreen damage) No longer exists. Prepare for the XBL Hazarmy.

[zeth07]

Hardest (though not necessarily worst) match-ups are probably Litchi, Hazama, Mu, Amane, and Hakumen. On Mu and Amane, it's just bad when you're not in their face. Easiest match-ups are probably Noel, Makoto, Rachel, and Carl. I only say Carl not because the match-up is wildly in Azrael's favor, but because a) every button you press with Azrael actively destroys nee-san (doll) and b) Carl has low life, which means you only need to touch Carl 2 or 3 times before he's dead. As for Bang, I don't know.

In general, though, I'd say it's characters with better normals or spacing tools (or ones that just mess with his game-plan) that he tends to have trouble with. Rush-down characters or ones that rely on projectiles (for oki or otherwise) tend to be better for him.

I disagree on Amane and Carl at least. The fact that Azrael gets to make the drill setups practically invalid takes away from Amane's gameplan, and it isn't like he is inherently good to begin with. Carl is still Carl, him having low life has more or less meant nothing during the entire existence of BB for how good Carl is. Hitting Nirvana doesn't do much of anything when Carl can purposely bait you into doing stuff like that to put you into setups.

By the way guys, i know it is a bit too early to start saying this, but from what you have seen, what do you think Azrael's hardest/easiest matchups are, and i specifically want to know his match up with Bang ( i'm sorry for asking too much questions)

Since you asked, this is entirely my opinion and based on watching a ton of matches and is in no way meant to be taken as fact since I obviously have zero experience with the game. That should be made clear first off. This is strictly as an observer of the game, and to be taken with a huge grain of salt.

I'm not going to use numbers since they seem arbitrary for this:

Ragna = Probably slightly Azrael's favor. They are both trying to do the same thing in terms of gameplan, and Azrael probably has higher average damage. Neither character can particularly control the match more than the other.

Jin = Jin's favor. Jin just seems to be universally better at everything, and has more tools compared to Azrael.

Noel = Even or maybe slightly Azrael's favor. See Ragna, but Noel's "gameplay" can be more disruptive compared to Ragna.

Tager = Slightly Tager's favor. Azrael needs to get in to do anything....Tager wants you right next to him. Azrael needs to do links....Tager can "mash" for big damage due to Azrael's errors. "Random" Tager or a "good read" can sway the match easily for Tager. Azrael's cross-through loses to 360s I believe.

Tao = Slightly Tao's favor. She is way more mobile than Azrael and now has oki. Since Azrael has no real oki he can't keep her easily in check.

Rachel = Slightly Azrael's favor. Azrael can disrupt Rachel's gameplay fairly easily and make some of her stuff null and void due to Growler.

Arakune = Even or slightly Arakune's favor. Arakune is Arakune, I probably don't need to go into detail here.

Litchi = Slightly Litchi's favor. Litchi as a character seems better overall than Azrael. See Jin.

Carl = Slightly Carl's favor. Carl is still going to be in control of the match most of the time. Like against Tao, Azrael has nothing for real oki so even if you do manage a knockdown you still have to make the right read to capitalize or else he's going to be in control again.

Bang = Even, possibly slightly in Bang's favor. Bang's nails are relatively fast projectiles so it isn't like Azrael can use Growler in the same scenarios he could against others. Bang's extra movement makes it harder to keep him in check. Unfortunately for Bang, his crouching combos are terrible so his mixup is slightly less threatening in general.

Hakumen = Slightly Hakumen's favor. See Jin / Litchi. Moral of the story, better tools / better character.

Nu = Slightly Nu's favor. She has more tools to control the match than Azrael, and it isn't exactly easy to Growler her swords.

Tsubaki = Even, possibly slightly in Azrael's favor. Tsubaki doesn't seem to have anything to really control the screen or pace of the match compared to other characters against Azrael. She also doesn't have anything to really cover her approach safely most of the time without meter. So like Ragna, it is more of a toe to toe match.

Hazama = Slightly Hazama's favor. See Tao for the general idea, except he doesn't have real oki (as far as I know.) Hazama is way more in control of the match, and since Azrael needs multiple attempts to hurt someone with no real oki, the problem is there.

Mu = Mu's favor, no question in my opinion. Her lasers really disrupt everything that Azrael does and it is hard to properly Growler them for the risk of getting hit.

Makoto = Even?, possibly Azrael's favor. I haven't really seen much of Makoto vs. Azrael in all honesty. Generally speaking I imagine it would be similar to how it is with Ragna.

Valkenhayn = Slightly Valkenhayn's favor. See Tao / Hazama.

Platinum = Even maybe. Platinum has a lot of different tools but has to have specific ones unlike other characters who can do things all the time. Since she has more tools compared to say Ragna/Makoto, I imagine she has a slightly better chance.

Relius = Even. Same scenario as Carl, but Carl is more threatening.

Amane = Slightly Azrael's favor. Growler makes Amane's drill oki practically useless. Also knowing when to just take the drills makes Amane not as effective.

Bullet = Even?, possibly Azrael's favor. See Makoto.

Izayoi = No idea, lol. I've barely seen any Azrael vs. Izayoi at all to form a real opinion (barely any Izayoi in general). I'll have to go back and watch more matches to even get a proper answer.

[LegendaryRath]

I wholeheartedly agree with everything Zeth posted. Unfortunately, we don't have much footage for some of the characters and I'm not too eager to say that many matchups are completely one sided yet (So I appreciate the use of "maybe" and "slightly"). Only having 'watched' matches thus far and not actually being able to play for ourselves, we're just making educated guesses.

[helix]

Thank you all for replying, i really appreciate it.

but from zeth's post, it seems that azrael in general doesn't have many good matchups .

I also agree that Amane is probably an easy matchup because his best tool ( the drills ) can be easily nullified with growler .

I also have a hard time describing what type of character Azrael is , he is an offensive character with decent defense( because of growler and his backdash) but he doesn't seem to be a rushdown character since he doesn't have great mixups ( only two overheads that incredibly slow and - on block, a very slow ambigous low that is - on block and he doesn't seem to have good high-low mixups ) so what would you classify his type of character ?

Finally, i would like to ask, how hard are azrael's links ? i know none of you have played the game or anything but simply from japanese players or any type of source, i'm asking this because i'm horrible with street fighter links, and since i main slayer in gg i know how hard it is to do these links, and i need to know this .

[zeth07]

Thank you all for replying, i really appreciate it.

but from zeth's post, it seems that azrael in general doesn't have many good matchups .

I also agree that Amane is probably an easy matchup because his best tool ( the drills ) can be easily nullified with growler .

I also have a hard time describing what type of character Azrael is , he is an offensive character with decent defense( because of growler and his backdash) but he doesn't seem to be a rushdown character since he doesn't have great mixups ( only two overheads that incredibly slow and - on block, a very slow ambigous low that is - on block and he doesn't seem to have good high-low mixups ) so what would you classify his type of character ?

Finally, i would like to ask, how hard are azrael's links ? i know none of you have played the game or anything but simply from japanese players or any type of source, i'm asking this because i'm horrible with street fighter links, and since i main slayer in gg i know how hard it is to do these links, and i need to know this .

.....

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?15788-CP-Azrael-Character-Overview-%28READ-HERE-FIRST%21%29

Gameplay Overview:

Play-style: Offensive, Power, Footsies

"Azraels combos are mostly links like AC Slayer, but much easier.

[LegendaryRath]

Finally, i would like to ask, how hard are azrael's links ? i know none of you have played the game or anything but simply from japanese players or any type of source, i'm asking this because i'm horrible with street fighter links, and since i main slayer in gg i know how hard it is to do these links, and i need to know this .

I can't imagine that they're too bad if you're accustomed to links (Good for Hakumen players). Once again, we can only assume things at this point. You said it yourself "... i know none of you have played the game or anything..."

With some practice, I'm sure we'll all do fine.

[YukiBlue]

If you can link with Slayer you'll be fine. BB links are way different than SF.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AMB Bakery]

Okay, I guess I should explain the reasoning for my opinions for Amane and Carl:

Vs. Carl

Advantage that Carl has: his vortex is even more guaranteed on Azrael just because of how fat he is. Azrael's only real hope is to backdash or growler, but both options have their own risks. Plus, because Azrael is so slow, Carl has the ability to play around and be annoying in neutral moreso than usual. Azrael can lose the chasing game hard in this respect, especially if he runs into nee-san unprepared. One last thing I noticed was that Carl's hitbox can mess up some of Azrael's combos, meaning he has to be closer in order to confirm or go an alternate, less optimal route.

Advantage that Azrael has: Azrael's offense and mix-up is very hard for Carl to deal with. Be wary of using 6D in pressure though, at least predictably. Vivace goes right through it. Another advantage is that Azrael never has to jump to get in, which means he doesn't have to worry about air-to-air vs. Carl or risking being impaled by nee-san fingers. I also feel like Azrael is equipped to deal with both Carl and nee-san, often at the same time. Particularly 5C, 6A, 3C, and Gustaf have the potential to hit both characters at the same time and reward you for it.

Overall, I think the match-up is very momentum-based, but Carl has the strength on wake-up and pressure whereas Azrael has the strength in (a patient) neutral and a little bit in terms of pressure. Azrael can deal with both Carl and nee-san when he's not in between them, but suffers greatly when he gets caught.

Vs. Amane:

Advantage that Amane has: spacing. The recent FT10 with Tahichi should show you again and again that Amane's C-normals and full-screen pressure is a bitch to deal with. What little movement Azrael has becomes even more restricted when dealing with Amane. Even if his 6D/hariken oki becomes irrelevant, he can still change his pressure to fill up his drill gauge. Even with growler, drill chip damage isn't always avoidable, and Amane is perfectly capable of doing damage via combos instead.

Advantage that Azrael has: close-range. It's the same problem that Carl has, but worse. Amane isn't as quick to get away as Carl, and has a little bit more distance he has to travel in order to be at optimal range. This sucks for Amane because Azrael shines in his mix-up and rushdown capability. There also is, of course, the issue of growler being able to nullify a number of Amane's attacks. Any one drill that happens to connect with growler will immediately give Azrael 3 projectiles which will aid him in the long-range game.

Overall, I think it's probably in Azrael's favor, but it's very polarizing for both characters. Azrael can be hard to escape while Amane's space and pressure can seem nigh impregnable.

I also have a hard time describing what type of character Azrael is , he is an offensive character with decent defense( because of growler and his backdash) but he doesn't seem to be a rushdown character since he doesn't have great mixups ( only two overheads that incredibly slow and - on block, a very slow ambigous low that is - on block and he doesn't seem to have good high-low mixups ) so what would you classify his type of character ?

Azrael's mix-up is the first of his kind in BB. His forward dash is great for cross-ups. Also, Azrael has the most standing overheads I've seen on a character (one of which has guard-point) and they are rewarding if you hit it raw on a weakpoint or on CH. IAD j.B is similar to Hazama IAD j.2C but you can use it as an air-to-air as well.

[helix]

................

I'm sorry zeth, i read the character overview a long time ago, so i didn't remember .

I also want to know where you guys got those azrael avatars (yukiblue, legendary rath, and zeth) and how did you get them. i want one for myself.

By the way, where should i go to find azrael's quotes ? i'm intrested.

I have also noticed that there is a very linear way of comboing with azrael when you start a combo with 5d or 2d that almost all azrael players use for some reason, is there some sort of reason for this?

I'm also a bit scared to post because the way zeth is talking makes me think that he'll do something if i posted ANYTHING stupid.

I also want to know if azrael's 5BB is an overhead, and if you can follow up afterwards after you hit an airborne opponent with it, also, have you guys seen anybody use SCP correctly and actually do something with it?if so then link me the video please.

[Lucalibur]

lol don't worry. Zeth is intimidating but he is a good guy.

The combos off 5D\2D\whatever done are currently linear due to being optimized. No point in not going for the best combo off a hit, right?

5BB is not an overhead, and on air hit it will knock the enemy down and allow emergency teching, so you can't follow up. On counter hit it groundbounces, so you can do some follow ups, but nothing big unless you got marks\meter\both.

[zeth07]

................

I'm sorry zeth, i read the character overview a long time ago, so i didn't remember .

I also want to know where you guys got those azrael avatars (yukiblue, legendary rath, and zeth) and how did you get them. i want one for myself.

By the way, where should i go to find azrael's quotes ? i'm intrested.

I have also noticed that there is a very linear way of comboing with azrael when you start a combo with 5d or 2d that almost all azrael players use for some reason, is there some sort of reason for this?

I'm also a bit scared to post because the way zeth is talking makes me think that he'll do something if i posted ANYTHING stupid.

I also want to know if azrael's 5BB is an overhead, and if you can follow up afterwards after you hit an airborne opponent with it, also, have you guys seen anybody use SCP correctly and actually do something with it?if so then link me the video please.

I haven't done anything to anyone since I've been the mod for this section, I have had no reason to, and I doubt I ever will.

It is just the fact that it is annoying to put a lot of time into gathering information and organizing it (and even stating "Read Here First"), only to have people ask questions about that very same information that has already been provided. Quite literally your last questions in the other post are within the first few parts of the Character Overview thread, and the part about links is directly answered and related to your own experience, and even you yourself makes the point that we "really have no idea".

It just undermines the work put into the forums if it is ignored in my opinion. It doesn't hurt to ask questions, it is just the principle of it when the information is already hand-picked and laid out for you to read instead of going through 70 pages of posts.

If anyone is interested in learning a character I would kindly ask them to spend those few extra minutes of their time to read the threads before asking questions.

Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from when these questions are asked.

have you guys seen anybody use SCP correctly and actually do something with it?if so then link me the video please.

Look up Q Azrael in the Video Thread.

I also want to know where you guys got those azrael avatars (yukiblue, legendary rath, and zeth) and how did you get them. i want one for myself.

By the way, where should i go to find azrael's quotes ? i'm intrested.

I made mine myself. But here's an avatar request thread: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?12203-Avatar-Request-thread-Read-first-post-BEFORE-requesting%21

Also I don't know where you can find quotes, but you can ask in the story thread and maybe someone can help you: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?14880-Chrono-Phantasma-Story-Thread

[YukiBlue]

But asking the questions here still gets answers. Doesn't hurt me to give some guy a little extra information. It's radical (Haha that word) having a thread dedicated to it. But Y'know. Askers gun' ask. Repliers gun' reply.

[AMB Bakery]

I'm interested in seeing the proration values on Scud Punishment. The OD version seems to allow a follow-up no matter how I look at it (just look at the 3-second crumple).

Also, Azrael is dangerous with meter and over-drive. The less health he has and the more meter he gets, it could lead to a 5-7k unburstable combo depending on which weakpoints you have applied (just having one of either easily nets 5.5-6k with 50% meter).

EDIT: Just thought of a new way to troll: if you hit an opponent with low health with valiant crash (provided there's an upper weakpoint), do > 66C > [6 > j.A] x 5] in remembrance of this: http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm19476106

It would be a great match ender if you combo'd during OD or if the opponent had no burst.

[Lucalibur]

I believe the AI simply didn't teched from the crumple, but IF you can follow up OD Scud then depending on the proration values, we might be able to do full, highly damaging combos by doing stuff like 5B>OD>Scud>2C>Drive stuff.

Theory fighting, yes, but the idea of being capable of applying both weakpoints mid-combo and still follow up is...delicious. Even if OD runs out(by doing it while having a lot of HP, for example), we can still do a lot of damage through normal combos thanks to both marks, AND scud makes sure they are just re-applied right after it, making our following pressure that damn dangerous.

[zeth07]

But asking the questions here still gets answers. Doesn't hurt me to give some guy a little extra information. It's radical (Haha that word) having a thread dedicated to it. But Y'know. Askers gun' ask. Repliers gun' reply.

Questions that already have the answers provided, and "extra information" that isn't extra when the information already provided covered the question exactly or in detail already. Not sure what you're referring to about a "thread dedicated to it", if you mean making a Q/A thread, those questions are the exact reason why I don't want to have that kind of thread, and my reasoning in the other post is why that is. If you meant something else, then I don't know. But I digress.

Carry on with the current discussions, lol.

[AMB Bakery]

Carry on I will. By the way do we know just how many drive moves that don't have repeat proration between the regular and weakpoint versions of the attack? I was looking back at this video and I don't think it was ever addressed much outside of "wow, that was funny."

I know it wouldn't be useful in particular, but it would make for some easy combo-ability or adding a small bit of extra damage at the end of a combo. Or if you ever manage to hit 236D CH you can follow-up with it again for good corner carry and a free-style wall-stick combo.

[LegendaryRath]

OD > Scud > stuff would be pretty sick.

Helix, Zeth's a nice guy. If he seems intimidating, it's simply because of his professionalism.

And Zeth, I understand where you're coming from. I spent several years doing the whole videogame-youtube thing (Dumb games like COD. I'm not proud of it.) and I constantly saw comments that just screamed "I'm too lazy to watch the video, so reply to my clueless comment". It's incredibly frustrating to put a lot of time and effort into something just to see that people clearly aren't even watching/reading/paying-attention to it.

That said, I'll still try to answer questions when someone is legitimately in need of an answer. We've all been new to this once and we should all know how confusing and intimidating a forum can be if you aren't familiar with it. Try to give a well thought out answer that they can understand, while also mentioning/reinforcing where they can get further help. Replying with (see below) only discourages people from participating within the forum.

.....

http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?15788-CP-Azrael-Character-Overview-%28READ-HERE-FIRST%21%29

^ Think about how tone and emotion aren't always taken how they're intended in text mediums like e-mail. This certainly doesn't seem might not come across as friendly or welcoming.

EDIT: I hope it doesn't seem like I'm attacking either party here. I'm just trying to help each side understand where the other is coming from.

[AMB Bakery]

Look, sometimes you just have to compromise. If you really want to get into fighting games, then you have to be prepared to read all different types of formats and ways of presentation or else you'll just be lost.

True, zeth's tone might have been a bit harsh from a newcomer's perspective, but sometimes you gotta force people to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

[LegendaryRath]

Look, sometimes you just have to compromise. If you really want to get into fighting games, then you have to be prepared to read all different types of formats and ways of presentation or else you'll just be lost.

True, zeth's tone might have been a bit harsh from a newcomer's perspective, but sometimes you gotta force people to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.

Here are my very short and simple thoughts on this situation.

Helix should have looked at the information presented to him BEFORE asking about it.

I understand and agree with Zeth's reasoning for replying with a link.

I feel that it can be discouraging to see un-thoughtful responses, even if they're accurate and productive.

I'm not attempting to attack or alienate anyone. Trying to show understanding of everyone's point of view, that's all. I digress. Let's not make this thread about anything other than Azrael.

[AMB Bakery]

If you're going to say "talk about Azrael" at least have the decency to respond to my queries as opposed to my opinions on an argument...

[Errol]

Someone needs to astral this discussion and I know just the person.

[LegendaryRath]

If you're going to say "talk about Azrael" at least have the decency to respond to my queries as opposed to my opinions on an argument...

OD > Scud > stuff would be pretty sick.

To be fair, I did start my "argument" with that.

This is the last I'll post of this because if we go any further it could turn into several pages of hurt feelings. It wasn't an argument anyway. Can someone express an opinion without people thinking they're trying to offend somebody? I spent a long time trying to think of a good way to show that I was understanding of all the people I had anything to say about and you still think I was trying to argue. How would you have made my earlier point?

I really am going to ignore all further mentions of this. I'm sure Zeth or any other mod would put their foot down on discussions like this.

EDIT:

Someone needs to astral this discussion and I know just the person.

^ Yes, agreed.

[Koopa_Klawz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6vChsEiX18#t=0m57s

Is it me or did Jin's 5C go right through Phalanx Cannon start up?