[CP] Carl Clover Gameplay Discussion (Changelog in OP)

[Psykotik]

But on the other hand, 3C not being JC-able on hit makes it 10x easier to combo 3C into Astral :3

 

-_____-

 

it looks slower than usual psyk...

 

The gauge recovery pauses whenever there's hitstop. Considering that there were a lot of hits being landed, the gauge might have looked a bit slower to you because of that? (I still don't see much difference tbh.)

[Psykotik]

So team Carl won the pre-arc revo same character team tourney #carl4Stier #carldoesntsuck?

[Rishtopher]

Is there footage of some of their matches? Honestly surprised team Koko didn't win o.o

[Psykotik]

No footage afaik. A bit of a shame really, RYO v Razu was a pretty good match to watch.

 

In other news, now that my study term has ended, I can finally start on a proper Carl guide, which will hopefully be done before EVO. I have a tentative layout for the guide atm:

 

• Moveset (normals + specials) ?
• Neutral
• Offense (the following three sections would be subsections of this)
• Blockstrings
• Okizeme
• Combos (?)
• Defense
• Doll conservation

If you guys have any suggestions for the guide (whether it be regarding the layout or any other form of input), I'll be more than happy to hear them

[wiredgod]

No footage afaik. A bit of a shame really, RYO v Razu was a pretty good match to watch.

 

In other news, now that my study term has ended, I can finally start on a proper Carl guide, which will hopefully be done before EVO. I have a tentative layout for the guide atm:

 

• Moveset (normals + specials) ?
• Neutral
• Offense (the following three sections would be subsections of this)
• Blockstrings
• Okizeme
• Combos (?)
• Defense
• Doll conservation

If you guys have any suggestions for the guide (whether it be regarding the layout or any other form of input), I'll be more than happy to hear them

 

 

There's a huge amount of things to learn and practice with Carl.  For any beginner, I think suggestions on which order to learn them would be great.  Still struggling with this a bit.

[Psykotik]

That's an excellent point, I'll definitely add a section for that.

[Pen_Ninja]

I find that when I teach people how to Carl, it can be good to give them some suggestions on how to handle controlling the doll.

 

Something along the lines of learning your to time your negative edge timings with your other button presses.

I know all of my doll hits are still input relative to when I input normal Carl moves... my biggest example would be doing 5C > sj.B > j.2C+2]D[ > j.C where I'm already holding down for the j.2C so I just need to press C and let go of D around the same time, almost like I'm rolling my hand.

 

I also find it helps, during combos and blockstrings, to hold D, then let go to attack and immediately re-press the D button as opposed to trying to do a combo/blockstring without the D button pressed, then when Ada is needed, press and let go of the D button quickly. You've often got the activation animation to sit through plus it's just absolute hell on the muscle memory.

 

So some section on general advice in regards to the general execution of the character seems like a good idea.

 

 

Also in the combos section, my personal preference would be to not list entire combos most of the time.

With the exception of like... solo corner combos (2B > 5B > 6B > 2C, 2B > 6A > jc > allegretto > 66j.B > j.2C > allecan > etc for example)... just list out some of the combo extensions that you can do and let people know that they can pretty much mix and match between them.

 

Where you could do like

 

5B > 6B > 623C > 421]D[ > 5C > sj.B > j.2C > j.B > dj.B > j.C > 6]D[ > 6B > 6A > j.B > dj.B > j.C

 

I'd prefer a section explaining things like

 

Your basic air combos:

- 5C > sj.B > j.2C > j.B > dj.B > j.C

- 5C > the one with j.As in it... I don't actually do that one >__>

 

mid-screen, CON

- 623C > 421]D[ > 5C > jump combo (This starts juggles really well)

- full jump combo > j.C > 421]D[ |> 5C (Tell them to remember to double jump straight up for this one and to input 421]D[ straight after j.C is buffered)

- opponent in air > 5C > sj.B > j.2C > 2]D[ > j.C > (Backdash) > 5C

- etc

 

mid-screen NCO

- 623C > 46]D[ > 5C

- full jump combo > j.C > 6]D[ > 6B > 6A

- etc

 

 

Just running through all the routes you can do from any situation and let them know that since most of them end back in the same position, you can pretty much mix and match.

Explain combo theory instead of full combos. Tell them how to start, all of the things they can do in the middle and then suggest that they end with 8]D[ > (3C) or j.C > oki.

I'm just personally against giving somebody an entire Carl combo for every situation, especially when they're just learning... Give them the building blocks and let them build their own. We're giving them really big building blocks and at the most they're going to have to put like... 3 or 4 together and it's really obvious as to where they fit. You ended this one in 5C, opponent in the air, CON... now do pretty much any of the CON routes.

 

My 2 cents

[sinder]

lol I've been playing Carl for years, and even I'm a little dizzy after reading that tid-bit @_@

Best advice is just to show them training mode. Almost every poster here has made at least one guide, so there's a ton of stuff for Carl basics.

If you do make ANOTHER guide, I would stress the fact that you press and release D during Carl's combos (what pen said)

This is probably the most common question I get from people.

[NecroTheReaper]

Out of curiosity (though I doubt I'd get feedback on this xD) does anyone have a hitbox that can tell me if there's a specific trick to doin 46D mid combo? On pad I could do it fine, but then I risk losing my better blocking ability (which cmon... carls got like 9.5k hp, if i cant block I die)

[Pen_Ninja]

lol I've been playing Carl for years, and even I'm a little dizzy after reading that tid-bit @_@

Best advice is just to show them training mode. Almost every poster here has made at least one guide, so there's a ton of stuff for Carl basics.

If you do make ANOTHER guide, I would stress the fact that you press and release D during Carl's combos (what pen said)

This is probably the most common question I get from people.

 

I guess my main point is that I personally dislike giving somebody an entire Carl combo and expecting them to learn it because then they may try to stick to that combo as if it was set in stone where really, Carl can pretty much build combos on the fly and I feel like it's important to learn that skill early.

 

Out of curiosity (though I doubt I'd get feedback on this xD) does anyone have a hitbox that can tell me if there's a specific trick to doin 46D mid combo? On pad I could do it fine, but then I risk losing my better blocking ability (which cmon... carls got like 9.5k hp, if i cant block I die)

 

What exactly is the problem with doing 46D mid-combo?

I can't imagine it'd be much different on any sort of controller/stick.

[NecroTheReaper]

I keep getting 4D like 80-90% of the time. Its really only while airborne that it refuses to come out. I keep tryin to do crossup allecan>5B>2B>5C>6D>j.C>5B>5C>46D>IAD j.AAAA>j.2C>j.AAB+3D and 4D ruins my UB

[Pen_Ninja]

I guess you're letting go of ]D[ too early or not pressing 6 fast enough or at all.

If you're getting 4]D[ instead of 46]D[... It's probably because you're inputting 4]D[

[wiredgod]

I keep getting 4D like 80-90% of the time. Its really only while airborne that it refuses to come out. I keep tryin to do crossup allecan>5B>2B>5C>6D>j.C>5B>5C>46D>IAD j.AAAA>j.2C>j.AAB+3D and 4D ruins my UB

 

I struggled with this too.  Make sure you're holding forwards when your release D rather than pressing 4, 6 and releasing D in neutral.  For whatever reason the input for 46D is stricter mid combo than outside a combo.  Also, you can screw it up if you hit 9 or 3.  This move is a bitch, but necessary.

[wiredgod]

How do you play neutral against koko?

[Psykotik]

It'll depend on how the opponent will approach but generally, you'll want to use the doll to punish Koko's zoning attempts. Try to keep the doll in range of Koko and use 46D and Brio to punish her if she tries to graviton, throw out traps and fireballs, or tries to do anything funny in neutral. If Koko gets away w/a fireball and then throws out a graviton at your location to make it home towards you, you can either use Ada as a meatshield to take the fireball or Vivace past the fireball. Be aware that her fullscreen teleports via graviton are an option, so be prepared to punish that if it looks like they'll go for it. Volante works surprisingly well in this matchup: it stills serves its purpose as a spacial control tool and while it can be nullified by Kokonoe setting a fireball and directing its course towards the Volante, she has to somewhat go out of her way to setup fireball + graviton, at which point you can punish her for it.

 

The neutral game in this matchup can be a rather hectic course of events since a lot of things can happen. The bottom line is to play the matchup patiently but keep the doll near Koko to keep her in check and punish/put pressure on her so that she doesn't get a free fireball + graviton. Once she makes a mistake, go in and don't waste your opportunity.

[Novis]

I've had BBCP since december (JPN version) but just started getting serious in it. I want to main Carl because I always like puppeteer characters but I don't know where to start. Could someone either give me some tips or point me to a beginner guide? Stuff like how to control Nirvana would be really helpful as I usually find myself not really utilizing her and feel really awkward when trying to manuever her.

 

(Sorry if this is the wrong place for this but i dunno where else to ask)

[Rishtopher]

I think there used to be a guide in the old forum but I don't know if it's still accessible after the move? Psykotik is currently making one, so hopefully you'll have a guide soon.

 

In the meantime, you can use this thread to ask some specific questions or get general advice. I'm not an expert, but here's some quick advice (that more experienced users can add to) for controlling Ada:

 

-Generally, you want to keep Ada in front of you. Give a little space between you and her. This is to deter your opponent from coming too close. Your goal is to either force them into the corner or catch a mistake on their jump-in that you can capitalize on by getting them into CON formation and sending them to Mixup City

-You want to be ready to 4D or Brio(623D) pretty much any time an opponent gets close to Ada. Be careful with timing since they'll be trying to bait those moves and jump over Ada to get you. 

-Most players who don't have big Carl exp will try to do long chains of attacks on Ada when she activates to kill her, you can sometimes IAD in and punish them for using meaty moves on her. More exp players will use 5A to stop her animation and then dash in, so watch out

-I'm assuming you know to negative edge the D inputs, but if you don't, generally you should be holding D to ready Ada to attack and release on your attack before you need her to attack

So an example in CON is 5B[D]>5C]6D[>*6Dhits*. I feel like timing is a little different for every attack, so you have to spend time finding reliable timing 

-There's a habit amongst beginner Carls to use Fuoco in neutral to start pressure, but I advise using it only for oki or pressuring your opponent into the corner before setting something up

-Similarly, watch out for your vivace usage. It's a useful tool, but many players know to mash lows and space themselves a bit to catch Carl using it. Try to only use it (as a means of escape) when you're dealing with jump-ins or overheads

-Volante is a good tool to use when you're far from Ada and your opponent is pursuing you. Upon hearing you using it, your opponent might back off to block (it's fast so they don't know how much time they have) or they'll try to open you up before they get hit. iI you manage to block their pressure, you can get a CH hit that you can follow up on, most of the time like this: *CH volante*>confirm with 5B/5C/etc>summon Ada>air combo>fuoco oki

-jA is a good air-to-air move that shuts down opponent momentum. You can mash it (if they block) and at the same time summon Ada below you to keep the pressure on once you land. Watch out for characters with huge horizontal range though (Jin, Hakumen, Litchi with staff, etc)

 

I hope that helps. I'm not really sure what else to say besides try and get allecan down and practice Tenerezza input if you have trouble with it, ASAP. Those are some of Carl's best tools and you'll need them to get good damage. Ultimately, you want to practice  consistent inputs more than setups when you're just starting out since that'll come naturally when you don't have to think about timing your negative edging or worrying about your spacing.

 

Bonus: I think this thread is a good resource for learning about playing Carl. You can watch to see how they handle certain situations and get ideas for dealing with certain characters (you can also do this by watching top JP players but the advantage here is the communication aspect/feedback if you post video too) 

[Novis]

Thanks alot! very helpful stuff. Are there any basic combos and block strings that are vital to learn? i've played a few fighting games before but Chrono Phantasma has alot stricter timing and such so I'd prefer if the combos aren't ridiculously long unless it's like a loop.

 

I've seen a "clap loop" mentioned (might be from previous versions of the game that isn't there now or the prequels, i never used Carl in the older ones so I wouldn't know)? I assumed this has to do with 8D? could someone fill me in on this if it's something important to learn

 

EDIT: Oh also, what are Carl's best options when he's being block pressured? And what's his best poke?

[Rishtopher]

To be honest, it's hard to say what's "vital" since Carl has so many options and a lot of it is dependant on your spacing and doll meter remaining. I think you can get away with just using Challenge Mode combos til you feel familiar enough to freestyle and then check out the combo thread for ideas on what works for you. Most Carl combos feel like Lego blocks to me in the sense that you have a Starter Block, then you have your Combo Filler Block and then your last piece is your Ender/oki Block.

 

I might be the only one who feels that way though lol. The Clap Loop comes from the first BB game and it's not in anymore so it's not necessary to learn. It was basically bouncing the opponent off of an 8D hit into an air grab. If the opponent teched, they got hit by 8D back into another grab and if they didn't tech, they took huge throw damage and bounced off 8D into another grab. It was pretty bad lol.

 

When Carl's being pressured, 2A is good. Though not if you barrier, since it has little reach. If not being pressured and you're behind Ada, 5C is a good poke since it has long range. It'll sometimes goad the opponent into trying to get in since the hurtbox on that move is big, they'll try and counter you. You can use Ada to cover you/counter. If they block your 5C, you can follow with a 6D (doesn't matter or not if they block) and hop over them into CON or you can 5C>allecan to try and crossup and start some mixup. If you're fighting a character with low mobility, you can walk Ada up to them and Tenerezza (lol Tager). If they block, hop over and start your mixup.

 

Also, once you have a feel for Carl, definitely check out the gimmicks thread, that'll really help. 

[Psykotik]

Just so you all know, the guide probably won't be done for some time. I'll post the first version of it in June at earliest.

[JG]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1Lvh-hKDCQ

Nirvana! plz! plz stop! xD!

[wiredgod]

Watching the Toryuken footage: http://www.twitch.tv/torontotoptiers/b/529964947

 

At 5:43:58, Zeero uses 2C almost as a reversal.  How viable is 2C as a GTFO move?

[Psykotik]

Not reliable as a reversal; it has 14f of startup and head invul doesn't come in until 8f. Zeero specifically used it to call out Valk 6C, which is super slow. It'll work as an anti-air in some matchups but most of the time, you're better off using 6A as an AA.

[Schwinguini]

Hello everyone

i used to play Carl in BB:CT and I'm now gettign back into BB with CP.
Still trying to get used to all the new system changes while missing the Clap loop and overhead allecan. Carl seems much harder to play than in CT.

What I'm wondering is: With 1.1 is it possible now to do midscreen summon combos from any starter on any opponent or not?
ie. the good starter > Cantabile > summon > combo with Nirvana

I've seen some video's where people do the midscreen cantabile > summon into 4D > combo,
but I've also seen a lot of videos where there is no followup after the cantabile. What are the specifics for the summon combo to work?

Also Carl had an airdash cancel in CT where he would drop quicker than normal. I know that got removed sometime in CS,
but I've seen some BBCP videos where Carl does some sort of airdash cancel (although noticeably slower than in CT)
What's up with that?


 

[Zeero]

Not reliable as a reversal; it has 14f of startup and head invul doesn't come in until 8f. Zeero specifically used it to call out Valk 6C, which is super slow. It'll work as an anti-air in some matchups but most of the time, you're better off using 6A as an AA.

 

I actually did 2C because I wanted to do 2C fatal A vivace j2c x8 after calling out a 6C/wolf cancel A

 

But yes, only do 2C if you give no fucks. If you're actually trying to win its probably not going to go in your favour.