[CSE-CP] Jin Questions and Answers Thread - How Do I Shot Ice?

[Moy_X7]

I know but it limits the opponent's options to wake-up block or wake-up DP. Its main goal is to keep the opponent in the corner, much like Plat's Bubbles.

Edit: Oh wait, you mean that it can go through his Ice Blade and hit him during recovery. Well shit, I guess you'll just have to use it against characters without DPs or 50 Heat lol.

[Putin]

I forgot to mention that this usually happens when I use Musou B/C ender, which is okay on the ground since I can switch it to the options you guys stated or go for resets after j.D > stuff.

However, I use plenty of combos that end with air stuff > jc > j.2C > Musou B, which is unfortunately the only ender you can use in these situations.

I guess I'll have to settle with different/less optimal combos to keep my opponents honest, when they start respecting me again I might throw my current ones back in. It hurts though lol

a ice car backdash is the best option imo

Could you elaborate on that? I see people backdashing after corner combos in high level play but I learned that shit these guys use don't always work in more casual levels

Also, setting the training dummy to jumping and barrier blocking everything would help to test the timing of the meaty? I'll try that out later.

[Moy_X7]

Ok, so I tested the 3C > 236C oki thing and here are the results:

- Jin with DP D, Ragna with DP C, Hakumen with his 1F counters, and Tsubaki with DP D can tag Jin during 236C's recovery. Tsubaki's DP A and Plat's Bat trade with 236C (not in your favor)

- Makoto gets hits by 236C during her DP C. Mu's DP has a shitty hit-box and will not hit Jin if you do 5C > 3C > 236C, the pushback on 5C causes her DP to whiff.

- Everyone else can do something about it as long as they have 50 Heat and a DD that has start-up I-frames.

So yeah, when you think about, 236C is not that bad if used as oki. Only Ragna, Hakumen and Tsubaki can negate it right off the bat. Plat needs to draw the Bat and Jin needs 25 Heat for DP D.

@Putin - lol there's your problem right there. j.214B/C knockdown is weak as hell, it gives the opponent the time to jump out of it. You really shouldn't be doing air combos in the corner, they might lead to a laughable amount of extra damage but it's not worth giving up your oki for it.

[xlolxlolx]

Well yeah.....low lvl scrubs will do plenty of shit decent players will just go wtf at

But I think it's one of the best positions for jin since there are multiple ways to lock them down pretty safely from that distance like j.c j.a air throw if they try to jump out, air throw teched is more favorable for jin also

Neutral tech you get to do almost w/e you want obviously they have to respect you in order for any of this to work but if they don't you get free Ch 5c/2d/j.236c a trick I picked up from my friend back in cs1 was to dash forward then backdash and 6c to bait jumps

and no ones gonna try to roll out unless they feel like dying

[Putin]

@Putin - lol there's your problem right there. j.214B/C knockdown is weak as hell, it gives the opponent the time to jump out of it. You really shouldn't be doing air combos in the corner, they might lead to a laughable amount of extra damage but it's not worth giving up your oki for it.

Damn, I actually went through the trouble to check if I can punish rolls after it and it worked, so I settled with it.

Actually, my corner throw combo is probably the only one that ends with it; throw > (musou A whiff) > DP B > 66A > 3C > Musou A > 5C > 2C > air stuff. If only I had checked that section of the combo thread here...

B+C/4B+C > 214A (whiff) > DP B > (Delayed) 2C > 6C > DP C > 5A > 5C > 2C > DP C (3170/33) ;-; Pretty much the same amount of damage and meter

That settles it then, thanks both for your trouble. I might also try Musou A backdashing to see how they react, good stuff.

[Jyosua]

I've actually got a question about safe jump j.2C. Is that actually a real OS safe jump? And if so, how exactly does it work? I've got an idea of the specifics, but I'm not sure if I'm right.

[Moy_X7]

I'm working on an oki video as we speak. It'll cover every type of knockdown (except air knockdown cuz that thing is too weak for actual oki), including 214A corner stuff and safe jump j.2C.

Safe jump j.2C catches rolls and DPs. However if they delay their tech, then the j.2C blue beats unless you delay it slightly.

[Jyosua]

Are you holding barrier along with 2C when you execute this?

[Moy_X7]

No, the point of safe jumping is to land and block before the DP hits you.

[Putin]

Yo you do that, that Plat 22C guide helped a lot.

Also I can 2A wakeup jumps now.

[Moy_X7]

I had already finished putting the video together in Sony Vegas but now it keeps on crashing whenever I try to render the video so I'm giving up on that shit and just gonna give you the tl;dr version. I suppose that it's time to upgrade to Windows 8 and get a more recent version of Sony Vegas.

Mid-screen, 214B/C Knockdown:

2A catches forward rolls and acts as a "meaty" when used against emergency and neutral techs. It doesn't catch back rolls and if your 2A whiffs, then do 66 5D immediately after the whiff for a meaty 5D poke. You can catch back rolls with 66 5C if you read those.

Mid-screen, far 214B/C Knockdown:

If you're far away from the opponent when you used 214B/C knockdown, then you'll have to do a 66 2A to catch people with it. Same deal as before, 66 2A acts as a meaty against emergency and neutral techs, punishes forward rolls but whiffs on back rolls. You can't even tag the opponent with 66 5C at this range so you'll have to just do 66 2A and when it whiffs then you use a 5D meaty.

Mid-screen, 3C Knockdown:

The opponent only has 2 options if they get knocked down by 3C early in a combo:

1) Emergency tech immediately after touching the ground

2) Eat a blue beat combo

The blue beat combo is guaranteed if they don't tech the 3C immediately, thus limiting their options to emergency tech > block and emergency tech > reversal. Useful if you want to keep the opponent from rolling in exchange for a bit of damage and Heat Gain. This obviously doesn't work at the end of longer combos.

Corner, 214C Knockdown

The only reason you should be using this knockdown in the corner is if you want to build meter. To stop roll outs, you'll have to react to your opponent failing to emergency tech. If they emergency tech or neutral tech, you just do a meaty 2A. If they don't emergency tech, then they're most likely going to try to roll out. What you do here is delay your 2A slightly and it will catch the opponent rolling out. From then you just confirm the 2A into 5C > 2C > 2D and dash under them.

Corner, 214A Knockdown

Safe Jump j.2C

To do a safe jump j.2C that also catches rolls and acts as a meaty, you'll have to jump and then do a very short double jump (just tap up) followed by a falling j.2C close to the ground. Confirm the j.2C roll punish into 5C > 2C > 2D and dash under them. The way a safe jump works is that you use an air attack as close to the ground as possible and since it has no landing recovery, you'll land and block the DP.

3C > 236C

This type of oki gets completely shut down by Ragna with his DP C, Tsubaki with her DP A/D and Hakumen with his 1F counters right off the bat. Jin needs 25 Heat for Hirensou and Litchi needs to have her staff equipped. Everyone else can just do a Distortion Drive with start-up I-frames to shut this down but they need 50 Heat for that. Makoto and Plat get hit during their DPs (Corona Upper and Bat 5D) with 236C, Mu will be too far for Origins to connect.

This type of oki is situational (punishable when the opponent has 50 Heat) and character specific but it limits the opponent's options to wake-up > block. If the opponent doesn't have the Heat for a DD, then this is Jin's most powerful corner oki option.

Back dash > 5C

This is Jin's safest oki option and guaranteed to keep the opponent in the corner. What you do is back dash and use 5C as a meaty. If the opponent tries to push buttons or jump out, they get tagged by 5C. If they try to roll out, they get tagged by 5C. If they try to DP, there's a chance that their DP might whiff against 5C if timed correctly (I'll experiment and get full results later on). If you screw up the roll punish, the opponent won't be able to roll out of the corner because you're in the way.

Corner, DP C Knockdown

Safe Jump j.2C

Same principle as above but you get less time to work with after a DP C knockdown. To safe jump off of this knockdown, you simply jump once and do a falling j.2C. However, this one can't be used as both a safe jump and a roll punish. To punish a roll, you'll have to use j.2C higher off the ground. To use it as a safe jump you have to use it EXTREMELY LOW to the ground, your timing must be flawless against faster DPs like Inferno Divider. Quite frankly, I don't recommend using this type of oki when used off this knockdown.

Back dash > 5C

It works exactly the same as if you were to use it from a 214A knockdown, you just have to be slightly faster with your 5C. However, you don't get pushed back as much as you would from a 214A, so you won't be dodging DPs with 5C like with 214A knockdown. With 214A knockdown, you're too far away for Hirensou to hit you out of 5C but with this type of knockdown (DP C), you're not quite far enough to not get hit by Hirensou.

[Putin]

Can't Haku D the backdash 5C? I only got to try it to a Bang and it worked just fine, but was too scared to try it versus Hakumen.

[C0R]

Hakumen can always "Just counter the meaty", additional measures are usually taken to beat his drive, such as doing the meaty earlier so the entirety of the active frames whiff, allowing you to advance and punish his non-triggered counter.

Keep in mind that safe jumps don't work on µ!

[Moy_X7]

Can't Haku D the backdash 5C? I only got to try it to a Bang and it worked just fine, but was too scared to try it versus Hakumen.

Just treat is as you would other reversals, wait for it, bait it and punish it if you see it coming.

Yeah, safe jumps don't work too well against Guard Point moves.

[mAc Chaos]

Hakumen can always "Just counter the meaty", additional measures are usually taken to beat his drive, such as doing the meaty earlier so the entirety of the active frames whiff, allowing you to advance and punish his non-triggered counter.

Keep in mind that safe jumps don't work on µ!

Why don't they? That DP of hers probably.

What a lot of people do is whiff a 2A during my neutral getup and then go for a throw or some other counter bait immediately afterwards. The 2A whiff makes you think they're going for a meaty so it might cause them to counter.

[Moy_X7]

Why don't they? That DP of hers probably.

What a lot of people do is whiff a 2A during my neutral getup and then go for a throw or some other counter bait immediately afterwards. The 2A whiff makes you think they're going for a meaty so it might cause them to counter.

It's because it's Guard Point DP.

With I-frame DPs, your air attack makes "contact" with the DP I-frames but the air attack whiffs right through, allowing you to land and actually block the DP.

With a Guard Point DP, your air attack makes actual contact with the DP and since it counts as a "block", you get the hit-stun from making contact with the DP which lasts long enough for the DP "attack" to actually hit you. I know it sounds confusing as shit but that's how it works lol.

The only reason Jin is able to use a 2A, have it whiff, and use another 2A is because you're not emergency teching his 214B/C. If you emergency tech, you recover immediately, so the first 2A won't whiff at all.

If you don't emergency tech some moves early in a combo, they turn into guaranteed blue beat combos. If you fail to emergency tech, there's a brief period in which you can't do any other action and some characters with quick OTG moves can take advantage of this by getting a guaranteed blue beat combo.

So if I'm playing as Plat and you fail to emergency tech my 5B > 3C > 22C combo string, then I'm gonna turn that into a guaranteed 3K+ blue beat combo.

I assume that Hakumen can do something similar to that with his 3C.

I can't believe I just learned this "guaranteed blue beat combo" shit a few days ago, it really changes things lol.

[mAc Chaos]

Yeah I do that with Haku 3C. I didn't know it was a guaranteed thing though, I just figured I was catching people who weren't paying attention or trying to lay down too long.

I get the guard point DP thing. Although I was thinking some safe jumps, like in SF, you would already be landing before the DP even comes out, that's why I was wondering. It just LOOKS like you're going to hit them.

[Moy_X7]

So next time you see someone trying to be smug and not emergency teching immediately after getting hit by 3C, that's a free combo for you lol.

[eQualz]

j.2C safe jump can also be performed with a single super jump instead of tapping a double jump. Gonna have to try back dash 5C. Thanks for the essay Moy!

[Jyosua]

Yo, thanks for the writeup Moy. That should help my oki quite a bit. I have trouble keeping momentum on people's wakeups and often let them out of the corner because of it.

[Moy_X7]

j.2C safe jump can also be performed with a single super jump instead of tapping a double jump.

Well you can do that but you need to delay the jump a bit if you want it to catch rolls as well.

I'm going to experiment with max range 5C meaty and see if there are some reversals that whiff at that range. Then I'll add this wall of oki to the wiki.

[eQualz]

Huh, really? It's been working for me. Or maybe I unconsciously delay them who knows, lol.

[Moy_X7]

If they're a bit slow on their roll outs then that works as well too lol

[cadacus_ater]

Not gonna lie, that writeup helped me immensely Moy. Thanks a bunch! Loving 214A > Backdash stuff.

[Moy_X7]

Just doing my job lol

I added the stuff to the wiki.