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[CP] µ12: Gameplay Discussion

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I've found that jump forward j.b at start of round stuffs a lot of people who jump at you and try to attack. but that's a read if you think they'll go towards you.

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Guessing is still guessing!

 

Stay calm and don't try to rush things, they'll kill themselves if you let them.

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Guessing is still guessing!

 

Stay calm and don't try to rush things, they'll kill themselves if you let them.

 

I need to stop rushing. I drop combos like that.  T ^T

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Hey, I'm a relatively new Mu player whose been lurking on the forum for awhile. 

 

I'm starting to get the hang of her, but I have a few questions. 

 

1. What should you be paying attention to placing steins? Like in what situations would you want to place a stein near you, and when would you want to place a stein next to your opponent?

 

2. When is the usually the best moment to use Totsuka Blade? Because there are times where I throw it out but the way my Steins are set, it doesn't really do anything to actually help me, and only allows my opponent to close in easier.

 

3. When is usually the best time to use Blessed Mirror, and what are some usual ways Mu tends to use meter save for Wisdom of The Devines to go for the kill?

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I'll start with 3. cause its easier. I like to use blessed mirror after one of those ambiguous neutral situations, where it's not clear who has the advantage, but you know there isn't anything your opponent can do about this, and you might even catch him doing something. Ex : you get hit by a normal hit counter assault, tech in the air, they're pretty far, and you have a stein behind them, plus two more somewhere else. It's also a pretty reliable way to beat certain moves that are kinda hard to beat with other moves, such as Valkenhayn's wolf cannons, taokaka's drive, etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by saving meter. Don't use supers in combos unless you're going for the kill? Besides that, I mean I don't hesitate to use meter for mixup (6b RC, 3c RC, j.2c RC), counterassault, dp rc, bait bursts and counterassaults, crush trigger as mixup, and RC combos if the starter is decent, to get some corner carry and a good setup (also, considering super doesn't add that much compared to the ~1.5k min you should get from an RC combo). I'll occasionally use it in a corner combo if I'm at this range where after SoD I'm so far that I'll only get 5c 6c (not 5c 2c nor 2b 5c), and it would give me a considerable damage difference. Mmm I guess about counterassault, I don't get reckless with it either blocking a bit then backdashing or DP gives meter too. I prefer other defensive options, unless my opponent might force me into a 50/50, and I still sometimes use it as a panic button (and get baited and die) ;_; ... Oh I guess another thing you could do is try to have creative and long blockstrings, they'll build you more meter than you'd usually have.

 

I'll write about the other 2 later.

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Okay, thanks for the help Pochp.

 

I want to try and get better with My Mu. So I could use someone to play with and practice. If anyone wants to, feel free to add me. My PSN is BrokenStar96. I'm not very good, but I'll be greatful for any matches. Thanks

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Okay, thanks for the help Pochp.

 

I want to try and get better with My Mu. So I could use someone to play with and practice. If anyone wants to, feel free to add me. My PSN is BrokenStar96. I'm not very good, but I'll be greatful for any matches. Thanks

 

We could play the dreaded Mu mirrors anytime. I need to regain my confidence in this matchup.

I don't think your Mu is too bad. She's on the right track, just needs more refining.

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How to place steins... it's kind of ambiguous, they let you do multiple things, but you also have to be careful when you place them. They can :
-Shoot to prevent your opponent from getting close to you.
-Shoot your opponent to provide cover for you to get in.
-Force the opponent to move in a particular way or take a particular action, anticipate, and counter.
 
After they are placed, there are a few things you can do with them too
-If they are well spread out, a 236d could be good (tk if you can).
-If there are some where you think your opponent might go, 214d can control space nicely.
-If one of them happens to be on your opponent during a blockstring, 214d can be used to extend your pressure. 236d as well if you're feeling a bit greedy.
-If your opponent happens to be on one while you were attempting a jump in, you can 214d to beat their anti air.
 
My rule of thumb for the placements is :
5d : fastest recovery and good in all aspects.
2d : Mainly used when to prevent them from getting close imo. Great placement to alternate with 5d for a good 236d, also on the ground so practical for 214d in pressure later.
4d : Mainly used to provide cover, alternating with 5d. Not as effective for 236d. Good at controlling air space with 214d if that's important for the matchup. Also nice when used close to others with 214d in pressure as it'll prevent jumping opponents from escaping.
6d : Very useful as a first laser for 236d, since opponents tend to jump when they see it come out, and it tags them right where they were going. Not as effective as the others in other aspects imo.
j.d, j.4d same as 4d. j.2d similar to 2d, depending on height. j.6d kind of like 6d but not as effective.
 
So now that you have all this information, the question remains, how do you place them? Easy answer : depends on the matchup, and what you want to accomplish. Here are some quick examples.
-use 2d when running away from valk. one at a time so you aren't forced to block a cannon. He has enough mobility to cross over to the other side of a 5d or 4d which has a good chance of screwing up their aiming completely. The shot itself is unreliable, but since he can't block as a wolf, good awareness of where and when it'll fire can help you block some of his movement options.
-use 6d 236d when playing against rachel. If they block, the pumpkin goes away, so when they see the projectile, there's a good chance they'll try to avoid it, and jump straight into it (obv, if you have more than one stein out so even if that misses you'll get more out of it).
-against Nu, use 5d from fullscreen (out of 5d range), while looking at them. you can then cancel into a jump if you see their 4d, or into another stein if you see a 6d whiff (or I guess 236a if you see 214d~c but I doubt it). Then, time your approach with the shots. Similar vs izayoi in normal mode, or any character that is throwing fireballs.
 
In any case, your specials' effectiveness is maximized once all your steins are out. A nice 5d 2d 236a 5d 6d tkj.236d pattern, for instance, will cover a lot of the screen for a good period of time, most likely keep your opponent there, and let you get in and start your pressure. However, if they are spaced poorly, it will just be a long startup move that won't give you much in return. Similarly, you don't want to use steins at any given point. First, you want to make sure your opponent is respecting your range, so it comes down to a lot of gauging them and using normals to keep them out (2b 5c j.c mostly). Once they give you a little too much room to breathe, you can use steins to force them into something. Don't forget, if you blocked before the shot got fired, that placement worked against you. Your objective at neutral isn't only to place steins either, I mean, if they just keep getting hit by normals keep at it.
 
As for the specials themselves, I explained some of what they can be used for, but you don't also need to use them because you can. While you're doing a mix of running away and setting steins, it's pretty annoying to your opponent. Once you use a special, the steins are consumed, so they can see it as a chance to do something, as they know that no lasers are coming for the next small period of time. So sometimes, you just want to stick to steins, as to never give up your advantage.
 
If you're getting started, an important step would also be to know the various ways to convert off random individual stein hits. It's kind of useful to know which hits you can actually convert into a combo, and which hits you can't. Trying to convert and whiffing a move through their recovery can actually lead to a loss. I like to try with j.a j.c j.2c and then adjust depending on the height, if I can dash 2b or not, or just go straight for oki. Sometimes, straight j.c if I'm sure of it and they're too far for j.a, but it's risky.

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Okay, thanks for the help Pochp.

 

I want to try and get better with My Mu. So I could use someone to play with and practice. If anyone wants to, feel free to add me. My PSN is BrokenStar96. I'm not very good, but I'll be greatful for any matches. Thanks

 

If you want i can add you for a Mu-12 mirror. I want to progress with her :D

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I didn't really think about it at first for some reason, I guess I've been playing GG more since 1.1 or something, but yeah 1.1 made our 6b unsafe on IB.
 
6b (lvl 4) : 15f blockstun on instant block
5d earliest cancel : 21f (in Extend, assuming it's the same)
DP guard point starts on frame 8 and has 15f startup
Jump is 4f startup
 
So basically, the opponent leaves blockstun 6f before you can cancel your stein into anything. They can tag your jump startup with a normal that's less than 10f startup. They can safely test your DP with a normal that has startup+active < 14. And well obviously it's -6 on normal block so -9 on IB if you don't cancel into anything. I think every character's 5a at least fits the criteria to beat all these options. The only gatling, 6c, will whiff if they IB.
 
I don't think there's a reliable way to "space it so it becomes safe". The move basically moves you forward, and with 2 hits to IB, the opponent should be in range of a normal that satisfies the criteria above. There might be a magic spacing that works, but then again add barrier to the equation, and this is definitely not a move you want to whiff, having so much recovery, so it becomes risky in another sense.
 
I mean sure, against players who can barely block the move in the first place nor punish appropriately (like me lol), it's not that important. When the opponent can though, and especially since the better characters can get a strong setup even off a 5a starter (ex : Carl, Rachel, Kokonoe), it becomes so risky to throw out this move, you could lose for it. When I fight a strong player, I expect them to block my mixup more often than not, whether I'm being predictable or not isn't part of the equation, these are mixups you can react to. Before, it was still frustrating because you'd have to guess your way to safety with jump/DP, but at least it wasnt' a guaranteed punish.
 
All in all it's not a terrible change, it just means we have to go more for frametraps, throws, and CT. Of course, on a setup, you can always get j.b j.2c or airdash/empty jump mixup, but I'm talking about where to go with your pressure. Maybe also stagger them for a little while to build the meter necessary to RC 6b on block if you're close to 50. Frametraps, throws/trm/throw whiff, and CT leave you at a decent position on block (or post throw break), usually even at an advantage since it's aprox Mu's 5c range. It would probably then also become interesting to explore options such as (corner) 2a 5b jump airdash j.b j.2c stuff.
 
I guess it would be worth adding that you could cancel the first hit of 6b into 5d then jump if you were good enough to react to whether or not they blocked it in the small window between both hits (is that even possible?). Then, expecting to IB the second hit, you might get away safely. It could also be said that there are quite a few setups where on oki you can get 6b then a laser shot to hitconfirm and make it safe on block. Of course, it's also safe with meter.

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If i see my 6b blocked, i have been canceling it more into a stein after the first hit instead of waiting for it after the 2nd hit. instant blocking Mu's 6b at any point makes quite a difference because even IB'ín the first hit and not the 2nd hit will leave Mu closer to the opponent.

 

Oddly enough i am unable to safely poke (tested it on IB) Mu after 6b 5d dp with any of my own normals even the ones that are supposed to be "startup+active < 14" like Mu's 2b. It was not always a counterhit, but i still got hit

Not sure if i am reacting too slow or if the time that you can special cancel your stein has shortened compared to CSE

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Yeah, testing it a bit, it seems the fastest possible cancel after 5d is faster now. I was able to tag a jump startup with 2a (7f) but not 2b (8f), so I'm guessing the fastest cancel is 2f faster. This kind of invalidates what I said above. It's not /always/ unsafe on instant block, at least. You'd need a move that has startup+active < 12, and total < 18. The DP's guard point won't tag them, but the active frames will catch their move's recovery anyways, so it's just no longer a counterhit. So like these characters' 5a : Amane, Carl, Hakumen, Hazama, Tager, Kagura,  Litchi, Makoto, Ragna, Tsubaki (2a, not 5a), Terumi will beat DP and jump after 5d. The other change, I guess, is to never DP after a normal blocked 6b, always jump? With the late guard point on DP it doesn't tag their pokes as well, and they can't punish you for jumping (unless Kagura 2f super, but that would beat anything you'd do besides RC). After IB, it's still, do 5d then :

 

jump, beats their wait, beats our dp, beats their 5a, beats our jump. 

 

Also... you're cancelling the first hit of 6b into 5d if it's blocked on reaction? I tried that on a dummy on random block in training mode... it's kind of hard. Do you have a trick?

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No real trick but somewhat on reaction and on guess against certain players whom i know that my overhead don't tend to work often. So basically it's more like knowing your opponent playing style

 

Besides 5d, all of her steins seem a bit faster at cancelling into a jump or special

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Random find concerning mixup. We were talking about j.2c whiff mixup on skype (really low to the ground, animation clearly comes out, but never hits the opponent), where you'd then do a low or a throw since the opponent is waiting for the hitstop from the j.2c. So, with that in mind, I thought about testing it, and it seems that at a noticeably higher height you can get this weird animation+whiff stuff after a super jump, as opposed to a normal jump. One application I can find for this, is when you do a 3c SoD ender near the corner, I sometimes superjump forward j.b, because it's a safejump, but you can plug in a j.2c whiff nicely in there. I'll test it out a bit and see how it goes.

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Random find concerning mixup. We were talking about j.2c whiff mixup on skype (really low to the ground, animation clearly comes out, but never hits the opponent), where you'd then do a low or a throw since the opponent is waiting for the hitstop from the j.2c. So, with that in mind, I thought about testing it, and it seems that at a noticeably higher height you can get this weird animation+whiff stuff after a super jump, as opposed to a normal jump. One application I can find for this, is when you do a 3c SoD ender near the corner, I sometimes superjump forward j.b, because it's a safejump, but you can plug in a j.2c whiff nicely in there. I'll test it out a bit and see how it goes.

Little known fact: Superjump makes you fall faster, meaning you'd have a higher minimum height for j.2c

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Little known fact: Superjump makes you fall faster, meaning you'd have a higher minimum height for j.2c

I kind of suspected that because certain corner combos required a sj.2c to work instead of regular j.2c. But does that also make sj.2c safer in pressure than the regular j.2c due to landing recovery frames?

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Superjump doesn't remove the landing recovery. The reason you have to sj.2c in combos has more to do with reaching a specific height than falling faster. In regards to j.2c being punishable or not, it being level 3 gives you 16 frames of blockstun, -10 landing recovery. We also know j.2c won't come out if you're close enough to thr ground, so add frames for landing... you're looking at +2 at best depending on the situation.

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I probably didn't ask my question properly. I know that It doesnt remove the recovery, but perhaps because you land faster you might be less vulnerable from a superjump j.2c than a regular j.2c from a slightly higher height since her j.2c's recovery is untill she lands +10f

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I think the superjump added gravity no longer exists after j.2c since that stops all momentum.

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I've been playing Mu for a couple weeks now, and I'm ready to move on beyond the embarrassing level I play her at. To that effect, I'm here to ask the actual Mu players for advice.

I already have a somewhat good idea of her gameplan (use her strong bighuge normals to stuff things out and get steins out, then do whatever you please and dare people to do something about it), but what does her gameplan actually look like?

Does Mu have a lot of good setups for mixup/pressure/crossups? If so, what are some good ones to start learning how they work with?

What normals will I be getting the most mileage out of in neutral? It seems so far to be 2B, 5C, 6A, and 6B, is that about right?

Does Mu have good enough meter gain to justify going for super enders/costly combos outside of when you know they'll kill, or should her meter be saved for RCs and for getting out of pressure?

Should I focus on doing as much damage as possible or getting the enemy into the corner and keeping them there for as long as possible? I main Nu, and I prefer to focus on keeping myself out of the corner and generally ignore going for corner carry, since I love teleport shenanigans in my mixup and those don't work too well in the corner.

What does Mu's oki look like?

Sorry about asking so many questions, but I figure the best way to get the right advice is to ask about everything.

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if its not the final round of a match, you can go ham with your meter if you really want to. (crush trigger setups, Laser distortion oki setups, ect)

 

But there are some cases where a combo wouldn't kill but an astral will or when its just more consistent to end a match with it (2A>2B>3C>astral instead of 2A>3C>RC>6A>6C>Distortion)

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I've been playing Mu for a couple weeks now, and I'm ready to move on beyond the embarrassing level I play her at. To that effect, I'm here to ask the actual Mu players for advice.

I already have a somewhat good idea of her gameplan (use her strong bighuge normals to stuff things out and get steins out, then do whatever you please and dare people to do something about it), but what does her gameplan actually look like?

Does Mu have a lot of good setups for mixup/pressure/crossups? If so, what are some good ones to start learning how they work with?

 

Check out the Q&A thread, there are some good basic setups to get started with there: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/index.php?/topic/8798-cp11-%C2%B512-in-depth-qa/ . In a nutshell her basic oki plan is to use stein shots and 2A/2B to catch rolls along with jB safejumps against common reversals, while mixing in meaty 5B or 2B to keep people from jumping out. From there you can make use of stein shots, charge shots, and 214D to cover your mixup and make it safe to continue your pressure.

What normals will I be getting the most mileage out of in neutral? It seems so far to be 2B, 5C, 6A, and 6B, is that about right?

 

2B, 5C, and 6A are good. 6B is not really good to throw out in neutral; it is a mixup tool. 2C is another good anti-air for further ranges that 6A won't hit, but it requires some prediction since it is slow to start up. 2A and 5A can also be used as makeshift anti-airs when 6A/2C are too slow, though it depends on things like spacing and the hitbox of your opponent's jump in attack, etc.

Does Mu have good enough meter gain to justify going for super enders/costly combos outside of when you know they'll kill, or should her meter be saved for RCs and for getting out of pressure?

 

Generally you should avoid using meter on Mu's super unless it will finish the opponent off, as it only does 800 minimum damage/1200 in OD. Mu gets more mileage from her meter by using RCs to back up her mixup, make her DP safe, and convert random hits into corner carry instead. Using meter for CTs in mixup, Counter Assault to get out of pressure, and the occasional Yata super to control space are fine too.

Should I focus on doing as much damage as possible or getting the enemy into the corner and keeping them there for as long as possible? I main Nu, and I prefer to focus on keeping myself out of the corner and generally ignore going for corner carry, since I love teleport shenanigans in my mixup and those don't work too well in the corner.

 

You should try to go for the best corner carry and oki setup as opposed to maximum damage, unless it will kill. Though there are exceptions like getting a Fatal Counter 6C or a CH SoD. Thankfully Mu can easily convert most air or crouching hits into corner carry with 6C > Ikutachi, or burn meter on standing confirms into 3C > RC > 5C > 6C > Ikutachi.

What does Mu's oki look like?

 

See the link above. There is also a nice video example of Mu's oki inside.

Sorry about asking so many questions, but I figure the best way to get the right advice is to ask about everything.

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I think the superjump added gravity no longer exists after j.2c since that stops all momentum.

This is no longer true in CP, with j.2c only stopping a portion of falling momentum, hence why it can now whiff during the startup instead of always coming out.

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Recently I've felt like my round openers could be a bit better, so I figured why not discuss that.

 

I feel like the basic Mu stuff would be something between 5c, backdash, or air backdash. So, most opponents would expect one of these and do something that counters them. Lots of other characters have button that could specifically beat our 5c at the beginning (some would whiff if we don't extend our hurtbox with 5c), not having the most recovery, this is kinda safe on their part. Slightly riskier would be to simply dash forward and catch up with our backdash, start some pressure. Safer would be to either do nothing, jump back, or backdash themselves, minimizing the initial risk and trying to find a safer way in eventually. Of course, there are other options, but assuming it's the first time I face someone, I doubt they'd try something else. Also, some characters have some special stuff, obviously.

 

To counter these, here are some of the options I like to use :

-walk back, then dash 2b : this has to be done fast enough so you can whiff punish a ragna starting a round with 5b let's say. It also does good against other options, as if they're dashing forward they don't usually expect you to be that close, and if they back off, 2b recovers fast enough that you aren't at much of a risk. If for some reason they try a slightly slower but longer range poke, you'll also block it, which is nice. Off the top of my head, it's also good against litchi 5b, litchi itsuu, tsubaki 5b, tsubaki 22b, probably many others.

-jump forward (optional barrier or j.a) : if they whiff a move, you press a button and punish, if they back off, you can start playing neutral but with more space behind you, if they don't do anything, depending on your assertion of them, either airdash back to avoid the anti air, or try to press a button. I like it vs valk 5b, amane 3c. Barrier if they might start the round with a normal that can hit where you are, or j.a if they don't and think they might jump forward, iad forward.

-super jump back : then if they ground dash forward, just airdash forward over them. If they stay there, you're at a good distance to start neutral.

 

And other stuff :

-if I'm sure they'll airdash back : start the round with iad j.c and start pressure.

-if I'm sure they'll jump forward j.a at the start : slightly delay a jump forward into j.a/j.b to punish their whiff.

-against relius I like super jump back j.d, hard for him to catch, if you see 214b, airdash forward to avoid it.

-against bang I like to start with 2b, if they dash forward they get hit, it's kind of hard for them to specifically beat it at that range, recovers fast on whiff, and if they somehow beat it, I'm crouching so they don't get too much, I think.

-against tager I like to IAD back j.d then backdash. places me at the right spot to start zoning them, not much they can do about it, I think?

-if they try to get fancy and forget about 5c, I'll throw it out every now and then.

-sometimes I just feel like doing j.2c, it just feels right and might work. kinda risky but good reward.

 

Of course, sometimes I go for the other options I listed, like ground dash forward, backdash, iad back, but rather rarely, and mostly when running a long set, just to throw out something "new" and unexpected.

 

 

What do you guys do? I'm very interested in character specific answers too.

 

This pretty much answered every question I wanted ask about playing neutral and thanks. Trying to get my Mu-12 better after my performance at CEO

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