Butterfly pressure

[Toum]

Hi guys,

I'm a relatively new player at this game, I play Anji and I'm having a hard time dealing a proper Butterfly pressure. I usually play against a friend who played #R online and AC for several years.

Every time I knock him down and throw a shitsu, it seems that he escapes easily and I can't apply pressure at all. In fact:

- he IB the first hit and backdashes,

- he IB the first hit and hit my Anji approaching like a dumb for pressure,

- he IB the first hit, jumps and guards the following hits while airborne (especially with FB shitsu).

So, how can I put some pressure on him, or making him standing still ? :]

Is the first hit of the Butterfly always IBlockable ? (I think yes, but maybe I have some timing issues)

And if I manage to apply that pressure, what are the main patterns I can use ? (when playing the CPU, I mix between a 2K/2S, a 3P and a crossup j.H)

Thank you !

[Dream Maker]

Hi,

A huge part of the successful butterfly pressure lies in the timing of the shitsu itself and from what knockdown you're doing it. You should ideally have your opponent wake up with the butterfly right above his head and be able to start moving before this moment to have a good pressure setup with the butterfly. If you don't make it on time to pressure then you've probably done it too late, if it flies past their head before they wake up then you've probably done it too soon.

There are mainly three or four cases of knockdowns that can lead into butterfly pressure and the opponents wake up. I'll try to write how to time it in each case in order to leave as less room as possible for the opponent to escape :

- From throw : do it right away.

- From 2D : don't cancel it right away, late cancel it a little bit but don't wait too long either.

- On (623H command throw) : I recommend to dash forward a little bit before doing butterfly, in practice you should go 2366P and it should be perfect on pretty much every character.

- Nagiha (S followup after fuujin) : same as throw, do it right away.

In some knockdowns though, you might need some small variations in timing a few characters who wake up very early or very late to have it hit properly. There is a list somewhere of wake-up timings on all characters but I don't remember where. What you should know is that basically Jam and Chipp wake up really early compared to other characters, ABA on the opposite is very late, and Venom has a tendency to not get hit by the butterfly while waking up (I don't know if it's due to him being early or to his sprite or whatever). So these are the characters that might require you some little adjustments for the above rules, the others are fine in most cases.

Now if you're already doing the timing properly then the problem may lie in what you use for pressure after your butterfly is set up. Because even if the above methods are ideal ways to set up your butterfly, it still leaves very little room for you to act and if you take your time, your opponent will be able to escape by IBing and jumping or whatever. You have to know your pressure strings perfectly to create patterns that leave as less room as possible for your opponent to escape between the first butterfly hit and your first hit. Some pressure strings you seem to use like straight 3P after shitsu if I read correctly are really easy to followup but also really easy to escape.

Examples of pressure strings I use :

- 236P, dash right away K, 2S, butterfly hits,

- 236P, dash right away K, 3P, butterfly hits

- 236P, 2366S, K (goes behind the opponent if no FD), butterfly hits, 2S

- 236P, 236S, K (lands in front of the opponent), butterfly hits, 2S

- 236P, dash right away 2P, 2K, butterfly hits

- 236P, dash right away 5S, jump cancel forward, butterfly hits, land, 2S

- 236P, dash right away 5S, jump cancel forward, butterfly hits, air dash close to ground, jP, jK, jS

- etc...

There are many more, but the key point is to have your first pressure move after the butterfly hit as soon as possible. All of these aren't 100% hole-less but by experience I can tell that if done well they're at least very hard to escape after the first shitsu hit. Practice your timings to be as fast as possible and you should be fine.

Also if your opponent keeps beating you at this and backdashes, hits or jumps anyway, don't forget that Anji has a weapon against any of these. Part of the shitsu pressure is also knowing how the opponent can escape your different strings and how to counter their escape. So basically :

- If your opponent loves to backdash, you can preventively use fuujin HS after the shitsu to catch him during is backdash and then cancel into D followup for big damage.

- If he loves to hit you during your shitsu pressure (which honestly shouldn't happen if you do it well unless of course he uses something invincible) use an autoguard move after shitsu for example 6K or 6H and time it so that it catches whatever he may do.

- And finally if he jumps and blocks the rest of the butterfly in the air, don't forget you can catch him with On (623HS). This requires some good reflexes to react to but it's not impossible if you're expecting it.

Sorry for the long answer but I hope it will help you with your pressure problems.

[Toum]

Thanks a lot for your help ! Looks like I need some work in training mode today

I just watched some videos, and saw a lot of Anji players going for 5P to begin their shitsu pressure. Is there a particular reason to that ? (just curiosity because I don't see any 5P in the examples above)

[Dream Maker]

Are you sure it was 5P ? What videos did you watch exactly ?

5P isn't great to use in pressure and there is a good reason to that. It doesn't hit crouching characters except Potemkin. So most opponents can just duck to avoid blocking it. Also gatling options are limited after it, so to start butterfly pressure it is no better than 5K or even 2P except for being 1F faster.

As far as I know it's not useless either, you can use it this way for example :

- butterfly, dash, 5P, 3P, butterfly hits if the opponent blocks 5P standing

- butterfly, dash, 5P (whiff), throw if the opponent is crouching

But 5P still doesn't give you as many options as 5K or 5S in butterfly pressure.

[Toum]

Hmmm, you're right, I almost only watched Anji vs Potemkin matchups (my friend mains Potemkin), this is the reason why.

[Fenrir Werwolf]

Well, 5p may be used especially when the opponent is on the corner to prevent him to jump, a very common setup i saw was: butterfly-> 2k, 5p

Of course, it's situational, but sometimes it's a good thing to do :3

[Dream Maker]

If it's against Potemkin you can definitely abuse 5P on pressure though, it has bonus frames on block and can allow to keep him in check while being outside throw range. It's a very important move in this matchup so there's no wonder as to why you saw Anji players spamming it in Potemkin matches.

By the way, if you need general tips or are facing particular problems against Potemkin in particular don't hesitate to ask.

[Toum]

I'm having a LOT of troubles against Potemkin XD

As I said before, the friend I play against played this game (and the GG series) for many years, so he has more knowledge and reacts quickly at my moves. I learned to play fighting games on Street Fighter, which is slower and doesn't have all the Arcsys properties like airdash/airguard, burst, IB and all the stuff. I still have to get used to that.

But I'm not against some advice, obviously :p

What I know this far:

- stay outside PB range (duh),

- don't airdash towards him like stupid because he'll 6P CH me,

- don't throw a butterfly if he has time to react cause he will do his FDB,

- find a manner to knock him down then throw some (good) shitsu pressure (don't hesitate to use 5P a lot).

And find a way to not be hit by a 6H as I wake up :x (yeah, I know, this is stupid, but I keep eating them sometimes)

Other thoughts ? (and thanks for your time)

[Chupon]

Stop it please, I don't wanna lose :'(

[Fenrir Werwolf]

I'm having a LOT of troubles against Potemkin XD

As I said before, the friend I play against played this game (and the GG series) for many years, so he has more knowledge and reacts quickly at my moves. I learned to play fighting games on Street Fighter, which is slower and doesn't have all the Arcsys properties like airdash/airguard, burst, IB and all the stuff. I still have to get used to that.

But I'm not against some advice, obviously :p

What I know this far:

- stay outside PB range (duh),

- don't airdash towards him like stupid because he'll 6P CH me,

- don't throw a butterfly if he has time to react cause he will do his FDB,

- find a manner to knock him down then throw some (good) shitsu pressure (don't hesitate to use 5P a lot).

And find a way to not be hit by a 6H as I wake up :x (yeah, I know, this is stupid, but I keep eating them sometimes)

Other thoughts ? (and thanks for your time)

If you get hit by 6H on wakeup, it means that you are not guarding or mashing something...and that's BAD

If you jump, rememebr to use barrier, or it will hit you since it's a ground attack. 6H whit pot is used mainly to raise the guard bar and keep you on the corner, try to IB and then react baing on what your opponent do. Not sure if you can autoguard it...

btw, Anji vs pot is totally in Anji's favour, you just need to fix some matchup features (like the butterfly being countered on mid distances, etc)

If you want, add me on xbox and we can do some mirror!

[Dream Maker]

Stop it please, I don't wanna lose :'(

If he gets better and becomes able to beat you, you'll also get better eventually because you'll have to change your tactics to beat him. And you can also use those tips to your advantage.

As for the anti-potemkin advice I'm sorry I took so much time, but here it is.

IMO Pot isn't in Anji's favor, it's indeed one of his easier matchups in AC maybe but still isn't better than neutral at best, Anji has mainly bad matchups TBH and very few "good" ones. It may be in Anji's favor in ACR though but that's not what we're talking about right now.

First thing is to learn how to deal with the approach, as you noticed you can't air dash straight in his face because he can react with a simple 6P. You can't keep him in check with your classic pokes that are 6S and 2S because he has 2D that can outrange both. Also because of his 5HS that stays active for a long time you can't afford to fuujin randomly. The only thing that is pretty much safe to use if you don't know what he's gonna do is to zone him with jS, trying to hit with the very tip of the move. Basically you jump towards him using jP as a cover move while your jump is going up, then if you think you're able to hit him with the tip of the move use jS and aim for a counter (it should kill his 6P if done well) then combo if successful. If you think you're not at the right distance and might get punished for it just air dash back instead of throwing in your jS. Of course avoid doing this tactic if he has 50% tension to do his aerial PB overdrive, it's not good to stay above his head when he has enough tension.

Apart from that you have to be very attentive to what he's doing and approach accordingly. His pokes and actions in general are very slow and have a big recovery so you can use that to your advantage. For example, if you're jumping to try to hit him with jS and you see him whiffing a big poke just airdash at him and combo. If you see him attemping slide head and you're at the right distance, use fuujin HS to go through and punish him accordingly. If you watch his moves it's very easy to find a breach and make him pay, rather than going blindly on the offensive yourself.

Also if you manage to get at 5P range, you pretty much won the approach game, there's almost nothing that can beat you at this range, except the Potemkin Buster if you're too close so you should find the sweet spot that allows you both to hit with 5P and to be safe from his PB.

When you manage to get a knockdown don't let him escape (it's pretty easy, he's big and slow) abuse 5P if necessary and be careful not to leave big openings when you are very close to him or he'll throw you. Remember 3K is invincible to throws, so you can leave openings on purpose and use it at point blank to bait his throw and get a big combo, it's a very nasty tactic that is pretty useful. What you don't want when pressuring is him reflecting your butterfly with his anti projectile move so try to keep your pressure as tight as possible in order to leave him no space to do this. If this happens though you can react to it, and autoguard the wave with a 6K, then followup with Aoi (K during autoguard). In the same way you can react to his mirror super, if he mashes it on defense and you are able to act, time your 6K accordingly to punish it and continue your offensive.

When you are the one on the defensive, never use fuujin HS on wakeup unless you clearly see him doing slide head. Every other okizeme tactic will beat you. Potemkins love to start okizemes with 5K which hits low, it's quite easy to see coming so if you're used to it you can use reversal 3K to get a low autoguard on it and punish. Be careful though if he mixes with 6K, which is overhead. His most dangerous okizeme tactic is meaty jS against which you can't really do much. But on the other hand he needs to have enough time after a knockdown to do his best mixups, so it's easy to know when he won't be able to do it. When you don't know what to expect it's better to block anyway, try to IB as many hits as possible and when you have an opening, backdash or jump out of pressure to avoid being thrown. Be careful though if he sees through it, his 5HS crushes backdashes and he has his 623HS anti-jump move for jumps. But at this point it's all a paper/rock/scissors game, you won't and can't win all the time but if you manage to have him guess and hesitate on what he should to (throw, HS or 623HS), it's already a very big step forward.

Also be very careful to 6HS on your wake up. If you can see it, try to IB it and backdash, because he can followup into slide head and force you into a combo (if you don't IB you can't escape between 6HS and slide head). You can also use fuujin HS against 6HS when you wake up and punish him severely, but be aware that if he sees through it and goes for the FRC he can punish you for it. If he doesn't have the tension for it though, fuujin HS is your best bet and most rewarding option against 6HS.

Also fun combo that only works on Potemkin after 214P/K in the corner :

214P/K, 5S, 6S, HJ, jK, delay, jS, jHS, jD, while landing jS, land, 5P, HJ, jK, delay, jS, jHS, jD, 214P

Not easy to do but very rewarding and cool-looking if you can manage to land it.

[Toum]

Fenrir > maybe I'll add you later this week-end, yes, thank you I just hope lag won't come in the way...

Dream > woah, thank you a lot for all of these tips. I'll try to do my best ! :D

By the way, Chupon and I will probably be in Japan by the end of June, and we plan to spend our last trip day in Osaka. So, if you're still there...

[Toum]

Some update after Chupon and I played against each other yesterday:

+ my butterfly pressure was a lot better, just by changing timings of the butterfly itself and the dash after it

+ I was better at "no-mashing" the buttons :p

- I dropped a lot of combos : x

- I didn't have a lot of variations in my pressure strings after butterfly

- I misjudged some situations not paying attention enough to what was going on with Potem'

Overall I felt better and the fights were closer than before, but there's a lot more to do :]

(Unfortunately, we had lag on 2/3 of our battles ¬¬ The netcode is so ugly)

[Dream Maker]

Unfortunately lag makes a lot of strategies and combos fail. You can't really expect to be able to play the game online as it should be played normally. I think that with time you can get over it somehow though, but if you get too much used to online timings you might have trouble getting back to offline play.

For variations after pressure try incorporating all of the pressure strings I told you about. You can also try throwing before the butterfly falls down. Or straight 214K after the butterfly on wake up (cool cross up and great against DPs). Other threads in the forum have many more suggestions for okizeme so try to get a look at them.

Also sorry I didn't answer your previous post but if you guys come to Osaka in June I would be pleased to meet you there.

[ChunkTug]

Countering Pot's 6H on wakeup:

-Reversal HS Fuujiin

-Block/IB then HS Fuujin when he cancels into slidehead. (I'm old and forget things, but believe Anji could just regular block and recover in time to do this.)

EDIT: I was responded to Fenrir on page 1.

[Toum]

ChunkTug > I think I did that the other day (block then Fuujin to counter wakeup 6HS). I don't exactly remember if I IB the 6HS... I think I didn't.

EDIT > after seeing the frame data, I think that you must IB the 6HS to counter with HS Fuujin. Here's my reasoning:

With IB, your blockstun decreases from 23F to 14F (by 9F). Potemkin is at -11 with a blocked 6HS, so it's like he's at -20 if the opponent IB. HS Fuujin has 20 startup frames, so you can punish him with proper timing.

Am I right ? :p

(this thread is transforming into a Potemkin matchup thread, I'm sorry)