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Kiba

[CP1.1] Valkenhayn Gameplay Discussion

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All of this patch talk is kinda interesting I suppose. None of it really means much though in terms of instilling actual change.

Hypothetically If you guys were to patch Valkenhayn, what would you add/remove? Just curious.

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- Make overdrive more viable outside of adding damage to super Enders.

- Make Konig Flug not suck ass (dat 700 minimum damage).

- Make spending wolf meter a more dedicated decision. I seem to be able to just steam roll people without worrying about my meter, though this is probably something I should feel good about.

-Bring back 236B RC into ALL THE DAMAGE (Extend nostalgia flowing)

-Maybe make wolf pressure a bit more punishable to stop people from bitching.

-Dont bring back 5A low. Wolf sweep is already the holy grail of lows.

- Increase his Astrals horizontal hitbox to something that isn't the width of a slim jim.

- Make Valk's challenge 30 doable by anyone who isn't a cyborg from the future or Kiba.

I can't really think of anything else because Valk is already really good and I don't think I want to see him get any better or worse. More than anything, I want the rest of the cast to get better so they can have a more fun time against us. Valk is one of those characters who is inherently good by design. I don't think it's really possible to make him bad, or even average. It's the same as Akuma in Street Fighter, Iori in KOF, or Millia in Guilty Gear. Heavy mixup/oki based characters are always strong, which is why I think Valk is in a good spot. All we need is for the characters who aren't to get better.

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Maybe a little more wolf meter and 5a low back. I don't mind the dmg nerf per say, however; a little more off my 6c would be nice again.

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Valk's OD is already really good. Go in training, activate OD and look at everything you can do with his wolf speed. Every wolf cancel becomes safe and you're even faster than Bang's FRKZ (cross ups in OD are hilarious too). 5B>jC>3D is also an amazing blockstring and being able to wolf cancel 6C on hit give you massive blockstun to do whatever the hell you want.

Even if they buff it even more, Valkenhayn is still strong enough to win without it hence why it's just used to end a match.

Only things I would like in CP:

-Buff the heat gain. Valk's actual heat gain is downright ridiculous. I don't get why Jin or Azrael get massive heat while we struggle to have more than 25 in one combo.

-Do something for 6B and 236A's hitboxes so that they don't push the opponent out of the corner. I know this is an execution problem but the main reason for that is because of a certain gay dancer in CP. There, everyone is agreeing now !

-I don't mind the damage nerf on Valk but it's quite disappointing to see that you pretty much always do the same damage with an N starter unless you want to give up on your wolf gauge. I would appreciate it if there was just one situation were Valkenhayn could rack up more damage than usual. Because yes, damage from a 6B fatal isn't that great compared to the rest of the cast. Needs a main punish that really shows a big difference between a normal hitconfirm and a punish.

-I love Konigg Flug. How come a PURE combo filler do as much minimum damage as some reversals super ?! It doesn't make sense at all.

-Beat Tsubaki's DP with the nerf stick (what do you mean it's not a Valk change ?!). Every Tsubaki players know it will happen anyway. Even Kiba ! Every night when he goes to bed, he can't help but hug his Tsubaki dakimakura and shed a lonely tear thinking about the future days when his 623C mashing sessions will abruptly end.

Aside from that, please buff her.

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- Make Valk's challenge 30 doable by anyone who isn't a cyborg from the future or Kiba.

Lol I still haven't even done it yet. I haven't really practiced the loop during OD.

Every night when he goes to bed, he can't help but hug his Tsubaki dakimakura and shed a lonely tear thinking about the future days when his 623C mashing sessions will abruptly end.

I actually hate Dakis.

On a side note, this type of discussion is usually not my thing and I'm taking the back seat, but some points that were made need to be really thought out. I understand it's a personal wishlist, but still...

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I can't really think of anything else because Valk is already really good and I don't think I want to see him get any better or worse. More than anything, I want the rest of the cast to get better so they can have a more fun time against us. Valk is one of those characters who is inherently good by design. I don't think it's really possible to make him bad, or even average. It's the same as Akuma in Street Fighter, Iori in KOF, or Millia in Guilty Gear. Heavy mixup/oki based characters are always strong, which is why I think Valk is in a good spot. All we need is for the characters who aren't to get better.

I agree with you on the point you made about Valk's design and it being impossible to make him bad. I don't think the other characters getting better will mean that they'll have more fun though, because Valkenhayn's pressure, mixup and movement will continue to haunt people unless ASW scratched parts of the game discs which made Valkenhayn unplayable. Seriously though, even if their characters are made better, the players probably still won't be satisfied.

Yeah, assuming of course that the lists were meant to be taken seriously.

This is true.

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Valkenhayn can definitely be nerfed/balanced properly.

They'd have to take away something relatively substantial if they wanted to make him bad though.

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I would say:

Keep the pressure and instant overheads and such

Make wolf hybrid moves eat wolf meter, so that he doesn't regenerate much if any wolf meter after he scores a hit.

remove all invuln props from 5d.

Then if he's S for the 6th game we'll give it another go.

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I agree and actually if they just gave me better heat gain so I can finish more combos with strum. That'd make him a serious beast alone.

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Well, for a serious list then:

Buff:

-Heat gain

Nerf:

-w5C phantom hitbox needs to disappear. I know I wrote a guide about it but being able to attack AND be safe is way too much.

-5D head invul is honestly not that great so removing it won't hurt. You have to time it with extremely deep jump-ins and its chances to fail is even greater when the move got a lot of active frames. I honestly saw more rounds being lost because of that than anything else.

-Even with 2A jump cancel gone, I still consider that rising jC>RC>jC is downright unfair. Wolf mixup is more than enough.

Stuff I would like unchanged:

-His wolf mixup.

-wjC jump cancellable. I don't know why but I feel like this is something that might disappear one day. I still would like to keep it because of wjC>djd>jC ender and combo variety.

-Sturm's minimum damage with and without OD.

What I don't agree with:

-Making wolf hybrid move consume wolf gauge would be a really good way to start destroying the character. This concerns 5C,2C,3C,jC,6B,6C and all his specials.

I don't know if you're aware but in CP, if you don't try to switch back to human form in a combo and keep comboing this way as much as possible, you will use much more wolf gauge than you get back. The wolf hybrid moves are the one used in combos in order to either end it with a knockdown or extend it as much as possible. Why do you think the main ender in the corner is 6C>3C ? That's because it's the best way to get back your wolf meter.

If those same moves uses wolf gauge, it would result in a situation where we have to use more wolf gauge than we can manage to get back.

That would mean we can get in in wolf, mixup once and . . . That's it. We won't have enough wolf gauge back to mixup AND combo afterwards in wolf mode. So the only way to keep the pressure going would be to make the opponent block as long as possible to get back what we need to mixup and combo. And you ALSO have to do that without using any wolf hybrid move.

So, no. Making those moves drain wolf gauge is as useful to his gameplay than not giving him any low in wolf mode.

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Hmm, my list would probably look something like...

General Changes:

-Fix his english voice wolf sounds.

-Give me my Extend color back.

Buffs:

-I'd like a new special move (pretty sure that we're the only character that didn't get one). Nothing great, just a combo filler type move like mondlicht. Doesn't have to raise his overall damage or anything, but I'd like something that makes his corner combos more interesting because right now they are horrendously boring. Don't care if it makes his corner combos harder, just want something more aesthetically pleasing. This may be hard to accomplish but it's all that I'd really want.

Nerfs:

-Remove head/throw invulnerability from 5D.

-Give his w[236D] more start-up.

-Remove wolf brake w[j.A] IOH by not allowing him to cancel out of rasen wolf during start-up. (I know we all love this thing, and I know that it's hard to do, but it really shouldn't even be here anymore)

-Because of wolf brake w[j.A] IOH removal we wont be able to combo off of a cornered 236B~236B confirm without meter/a 6B FC. Not a fan of this, but it can't be helped.

-Remove 5C/2C's geschwind cancellable properties outside of OD mode.

-Disallow him to cancel into geschwind wolf on whiff.

-Make his 6C neutral on block.

-Remove wolf cancellable properties from his 2A/5A.

_____________________________________

Seems like a pretty fair list to me, and it's still subject to change/alter. But I'd be perfectly okay with all of these changes. As long as we're not doing stuff that doesn't make sense like a big wolf gauge nerf, removal of wolf lows, removal of key wolf gatlings, other silly stuff that prevents him from having combos, etc I'm fine.

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-Fix his english voice wolf sounds.

You know this is why I disliked his English voice and I don't know why people use it.

Double edit: I agree with your changes the most.

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Don't act like you don't enjoy hearing Doug Stone make wierd dog/old man noises ;)

I still play in English anyway, but as a voice actor myself I can tolerate it.

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I mean, I can think of PLENTY of Valkenhayn nerfs/changes that actually make sense and aren't terrible in terms of character design choices, but what I just listed together makes a good deal of sense, and I'd probably finalize on a list that's either similar or identical to that. Though If I were actually in charge of patching him I'd definitely put A LOT more thought into the intricacies and such.

If Valkenhayn does end up getting patched ideally I'd like someone who actually understands the character doing it (doesn't even have to be a Valkenhayn main or anything like that, just someone who understands the character very well) otherwise silly stuff is bound to occur.

I typically use the English VA simply because I don't understand Japanese, though right now the English VA is unplayable. They somehow managed to mess up the wolf sounds this time around.

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i've seen plenty of suggestions for increasing the cooldown before wolf gauge comes back... the problem for a lot of people is ultimately the loop from retarded mixup into more of it till dead.

you can try to reduce his mixup potential, or you can make him not able to do it as much.

wolf meter use on hybrid moves is just a more flavorful way of doing it to me. it doesn't even have to consume much, it could just even stop recovery of wolf gauge. then you have to play a game when they wake up. instead of just putting them into the blender again.

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How exactly would a cooldown nerf work? Something along the lines of him exiting wolf mode then waiting a certain period of time before he can re-enter? Because if that's the case then it'd be extremely problematic.

I've heard a lot of Valkenhayn changes from many different people but I have never heard of a wolf-hybrid move wolf meter consumption change. It's actually an interesting concept to be perfectly honest with you, but implementing it properly would be really damn hard since a lot of his combo filler involves those moves like Magaki mentioned. Stopping recovery would probably make the most sense.

Generally speaking though messing with the wolf gauge is really damn risky and it just feels safer to give him mix-up nerfs and other things alike since it's easier to gauge the damage that those sorts of things will do to the character.

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Just meaning to make it take an extra half second, or whatever amount of time, before wolf gauge starts recovering. Or decreasing the rate of recovery once he starts recovering. Either would potentially make it harder to end a combo with full wolf meter, or to replenish wolf meter in human form after playing in neutral as wolf without getting hit or getting in.

His OD seems pretty plain. It'd be interesting if it buffed up his human/wolf moves to me.. more damage, or follow things up in different ways.

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He would lose to many style points with no brake ja and no dmg. I attracted to his fast overhead game, I would be crushed to lose that and 6c dmg. Those are my fav moves next 6b, and now w5c, jc.

Anyway I wanted to ask Dreize if he can explain the directional influence with 5c loop. I haven't figured out what's making Valk move. I'm using 1/4 method for the loop. I was wondering does 7/8 input make him move backwards?

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@errol I play a game on wake up every time i call it "no one blocks this one"! Everyone favorite game they love to hate.

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@errol I play a game on wake up every time i call it "no one blocks this one"! Everyone favorite game they love to hate.

Sent from my SCH-R530M using Tapatalk

Part of me really agrees with this. I play with people who are used to playing my Valk, and in turn they are really good at blocking my mixup. People need to take the time to realize the our mixup is just as much method as it is madness, and like anything in fighting games, can be dealt with if practiced. Though it might be hard because not many people use the character, but hey, just some food for thought.

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Same here. I agree with everything except brjA. Reason why this has always been around is because ASW obviously wants to make him the mixups god and that's pretty much the main reason why Valk is Valk.

Anyway, I still would rather prefer minor changes made on Valk for buffs/nerfs and major buffs for the mid/low tiers. Massively nerfing the tops and buffing others randomly only feel like we are just switching the top tiers which doesn't help a lot balance-wise. But then again, Valk/Hazama and Tao don't get it because of their strong drives.

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Double post because this is something completely unrelated and I'll forget to post it again if I don't do it now:

Kiba found a new tech quite a while ago particularly good.

Midscreen, when you have to do the usual 5B>5C>air combo, instead of ending it with jBBC or hjBABBC, end it with hjA>jB>jC.

Exactly when you land afterwards, press 3C.

If the opponent tried to delay tech, quick tech or roll (backward or forward), he will get OTG'ed by the 3C (if the opponent rolls away, you pressed 3C way too late). If you get a hitconfirm with 3C, press 236A right away for more corner carry.

If you don't get a hitconfirm (opponent emergency tech), press 1DC for a wolf loop. It will allow you to meaty the opponent on the first frames and you will be exactly in w5C range allowing you to avoid most DPs except Litchi's, Tsubaki's and Ragna's.

Obviously, it got the same weakness w5C has which is backdash beats it. If your opponent is backdash happy, just do 3C>6D>wjA instead.

Summary:

Stuff>5B>5C>hjABC ender.

3C while landing. 3C>236A on hit. 3C>1DC if it whiffs.

It's an excellent tech which works midscreen so I would strongly suggest you to learn it.

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Very nice! I was aware of 3c catching roll/delay tech, but this... this is golden. Kiba better patent that shiz, cuz I'm stealing it. I gotta add this post to my evernotes.

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