[CP1.1] Valkenhayn Gameplay Discussion

[samthegreat]

Can't wait to see the matches we missed on arcrevo channel.

[Dreize]

Well, Hima is back in 1st in the dan rankings. I guess talking about dan rankings is kinda pointless though since they fluctuate far too often.

I was actually attempting to look up some old Extend Hima/Masashi play today on Nico; no luck. I do not know what to search/how to find old gameplay. Oh well.

I may just upload some of my own play and do some good ol' self-evaluation. Neutral needs work.

I know how you feel about it, especially since Masashi is your favourite. I'm not disappointed with the fact that Konan lost to Zekuso, but I am rather interested to see how the match went.

Yeah, tell me about it man.

I'd love to see Zekuso's matches. From what I can tell, I didn't notice any substantial blunders in his play when he went against Abarenji; he seemed to be doing pretty well actually. He even managed to get a perfect in the second round and his pressure seemed to be on point.

Can't wait to see the matches we missed on arcrevo channel.

Word. Give me the Masashi vs Noze match please.

[Kiba]

I was actually attempting to look up some old Extend Hima/Masashi play today on Nico; no luck. I do not know what to search/how to find old gameplay. Oh well.

Funny you should mention this, I was doing just that for Zekuso. I have considered uploading some Valkenhayn gameplay myself, but I'll give it some more thought. Try typing this into the search box:

' ヒマ ヴァルケンハイン ' - That's for Hima, not sure on Masashi sorry man, though you may find him along the way.

[Dreize]

Some of my play is a bit questionable, so I'm slightly hesitant.

I typed "ヒマ ヴァルケンハイン" into Nico, and I got a bunch of CS2/CP Hima play. Damn.

Do you know what the, err; "secret code" for Zekuso is?

[samthegreat]

Well yeah, ゼクソ.

[Kiba]

I typed "ヒマ ヴァルケンハイン" into Nico, and I got a bunch of CS2/CP Hima play. Damn.

Try 'ヒマ ヴァルケン'. Search for the videos after October 5th because anything beforehand will be CS2.

[heavymetalmixer]

How much invencibility has Valken's antiair?

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUfz7keb9kg#t=7m30s

[Kiba]

Doesn't specify on the CP wiki, could be an error.

If you're referring to 6A, it has 5-12f guard point.

[Dreize]

The new one worked well, Kiba.

125 results for Zekuso, 72 results for Hima.

Excellent.

[Kiba]

Glad it worked for you. Enjoy.

[Dreize]

The Valkenhayn fests are always so great. New stuff for the combo thread as well. Ryuu kept losing his wolf meter, but the implementation of the wolf sweep loop into his play was amazing.

And is it just me, or was Zekuso secretly trolling PRFARMY or something?

-3C rapid cancel tech.

-Fully depletes wolf meter for no plausible reason.

-h[j.B] x N without confirming into anything (he even had meter)

-Astral.

Welp.

[Kiba]

Ryuu also used this w[j.B] fuzzy guard? which is pretty noteworthy, especially when it's a decent starter (even better with w[5C] loop). Ryuu generally needs to work a little on managing his wolf meter, but when he uses that loop you can see how he gets about half of his wolf meter back during the duration of the combo, so it's definately worth using especially since we can get 4k off it. Can probably hit about 5k off a FC with it.

Zekuso was definately trolling there lol.

[Dreize]

It's nice to see a member of the big three acting, err, "derpy". Hah.

Saw that w[j.B] fuzzy set-up, we really don't see it too often. Nothing new though, we could do it Extend against most of the cast if I recall correctly. I didn't know that we could confirm the second w[j.B] into w[3C > j.A] for a combo though. Odd.

The set-up uses a bit too much wolf meter for my liking as well (2 command dashes). Plus he was already using quite a bit for the wolf sweep loop too. Wolf meter intensive set-ups + wolf meter intensive combo's = good luck managing your wolf meter.

I just know that these new wolf normals are going to garner so much damn salt. Getting hit by w[j.C] on wake-up into 3.5k doesn't sound too pleasant.

Additionally, added this to the combo thread, looks good:

[*]j.C > 5B > 5C > 2D > 5C > 2D > 5C > 2D > 5C > 6D > j.A > 5D > 5C > 236A > 2C > 6B > 2C > tk.214B > 6C > 3C > 236B [3927 DMG, 28 HG]

[Kiba]

Saw that w[j.B] fuzzy set-up, we really don't see it too often. Nothing new though, we could do it Extend against most of the cast if I recall correctly. I didn't know that we could confirm the second w[j.B] into w[3C > j.A] for a combo though. Odd.

The set-up uses a bit too much wolf meter for my liking as well (2 command dashes). Plus he was already using quite a bit for the wolf sweep loop too. Wolf meter intensive set-ups + wolf meter intensive combo's = good luck managing your wolf meter.

Yea that's true, and despite it showing the kind of options Valk is capable of, I suppose we have other superior pressure alternatives which conserve wolf meter.

Additionally, added this to the combo thread, looks good:

[*]j.C > 5B > 5C > 2D > 5C > 2D > 5C > 2D > 5C > 6D > j.A > 5D > 5C > 236A > 2C > 6B > 2C > tk.214B > 6C > 3C > 236B [3927 DMG, 28 HG]

Yea that's good man thanks.

[Kiba]

I have begun the basis for the Valkenhayn strategy guide and I will add more information overtime. I already have the information I want but I'm moulding the bulk of it.

Anyway, I hope the guide is alright so far, and once CP is out all I will do is convert the guide as necessary. On a minor note, moved the old general discussion thread to the archive. We had two so there wasn't much point keeping it around. Also moved the old guide to the archive.

[Dreize]

You already know that I'll be helping you out with this. I'll probably be PM'ing you most of the time though instead of posting here.

But a few things to take note of right off of the bat that more or may not be intentional:

especially since Valkenhayn has 10,000 health and his defensive options are quite weak.

Valkenhayn has 10,500 health. Just a small typo. It may also be important to note that our defensive options have gotten even worse since our meter gain has been nerfed which means that we have less for sturm wolf/counter assaults.

Using 5C on opponent’s guard

5C serves no purpose on guard

As you know, new to CP h[5C] is geschwind cancellable (we don't know how useful it is yet, but I've seen it being used quite a bit with great success).

Dashing in after blocked w5B

This isn’t necessarily a bad habit, but it can cost you your pressure advantage depending on how well the opponent knows Valkenhayn. You have to understand that Valkenhayn’s only two options after w[5B] are jumping, and dashing in/away, which are quite weak.

Well, we do have the new w[5C] gatling after w[5B] now so using w[5B] on block isn't as big of a deal. I know the title says "[CSE-CP] Valkenhayn Strategy Guide WIP" but I think that we may have to prioritize on one game while taking things that still apply from past iterations and putting them into this guide. Unless of course, you were already planning on changing this and it was just a really rough-ish draft. If that's the case, feel free to ignore this.

[Kiba]

Valkenhayn has 10,500 health. Just a small typo. It may also be important to note that our defensive options have gotten even worse since our meter gain has been nerfed which means that we have less for sturm wolf/counter assaults.

Ah, thanks. I'll also take note of that.

As you know, new to CP h[5C] is geschwind cancellable (we don't know how useful it is yet, but I've seen it being used quite a bit with great success).

Yea, though I won't take note of that just yet since we're all sitting on EX. It's still unsafe though.

Well, we do have the new w[5C] gatling after w[5B] now so using w[5B] on block isn't as big of a deal. I know the title says "[CSE-CP] Valkenhayn Strategy Guide WIP" but I think that we may have to prioritize on one game while taking things that still apply from past iterations and putting them into this guide. Unless of course, you were already planning on changing this and it was just a really rough-ish draft. If that's the case, feel free to ignore this.

I'll leave it as CSE for now then, but simply modify it come CP. w[5C] will suffer the same problem as w[5B] tbh.

Thanks man.

[samthegreat]

It may also be important to note that our defensive options have gotten even worse since our meter gain has been nerfed which means that we have less for sturm wolf/counter assaults.

I guess, altough meter gain has been nerfed in general.

[Kakimori]

This is a CSE question, but (shamefully) I'm having some real trouble correctly inputting his j.DB > j.B > j.C finisher after the relaunch. I've been practicing and will continue to do, but I always seem to either hit the D too early and j.w.B or go too late and whiff the j.B. Any suggestions or tips?

[Dreize]

There is no actual trick to it. Input the w[5B] almost simultaneously while inputting the jump; then immediately input D followed up by j.B.

Press D too late and you'll get a blue beat/they will tech, but press it too early and it won't come out and you'll just end up going into w[j.B]. It'll take a bit of time to get down.

What you can do, though, is work your way up.

Practice getting this down first: w[5B] > j.D > j.B > dj.B > j.C

Then this: w[5B > j.A > j.236A > j.236B > 5C > j.B > j.B > 5B] > j.D > j.B > dj.B > j.C

Lastly: w[5A > 5B > j.A > j.236A > j.236B > 5C > j.B > j.B > 5B] > j.B > j.B > dj.B > j.C

The starter/proration values near the end of the combo affect how lenient the j.D timing becomes. Thus, working your way up can be quite beneficial. Feel free to ask any future questions here, we don't bite (well we do, but we're not mashing out wolf normals right now; so you'll be fine).

[Kakimori]

So starting the combo with w.5B should give me SLIGHTLY more untech time than with w.5A > w.5B right? I have no problem with any other part of the combo, but I definitely need to get more precise with this. I play on a pad so my thumb has to move from D to B very quickly ;_;

Thanks for the tips!

[Dreize]

Yeah. The 3 examples I gave were pretty solid, so just work your way up. You'll get it eventually. It will become muscle memory in due time.

I play on pad as well (unfortunately). Transitions from wolf to human and vice-versa tend to be the hardest part about Valkenhayn's combos.

Anytime.

[Kakimori]

Okay, two more questions! Does that mean that, say, when you use w.4C to get a whiff, or when you have the choice, you should always use w.j.B > w.B or w.B to start the combo? (I guess not that it matters since I just read that w.5B doesn't launch anymore in CP?? Seems like a big change...) AND I see pros using air wolf cannons to attack opponents on the ground a lot...why is this optimal or better than other wolf cannons?

[Kiba]

Okay, two more questions! Does that mean that, say, when you use w.4C to get a whiff, or when you have the choice, you should always use w.j.B > w.B or w.B to start the combo? (I guess not that it matters since I just read that w.5B doesn't launch anymore in CP?? Seems like a big change...) AND I see pros using air wolf cannons to attack opponents on the ground a lot...why is this optimal or better than other wolf cannons?

If you make an opponent's attack whiff using 4C/7C using either w[j.B] or w[5B] is alright and is your safest option if you're still getting used to wolf movements and interchanging. They're also quite good as combo starters, but if you really want to make the most out of your punishes, you can use better options, but of course this completely depends on the whiffed move. Moves with less recovery would require you to use a faster attack, so w[j.B]/[5B] is fine, but if you make a DP whiff for example, Jin's, you'd be better off using 2C/6B FC which both lead into silly damage. Of course that would require you to use w[4C]/[7C] > j.D > 6B/2C which can take some time getting used to.

You are right that w[5B] no longer launches in CP. I don't think it's a completely big change now that we have w[5C > 6D > j.A] stuff.

w[j.214A/B] wolf cannons are useful for baiting anti air attempts and scoring CHs but that's all really. If it's blocked you can get punished easily, and unlike w[(j.)236A/B]you can't cancel them into 4C/7C to try and make them safe. Landing a CH with w[j.124A/B] is also going to lead into a sub optimal combo unless you following with 5D > 2C but even then, the timing is strict and is spacing dependant (2C will whiff if they're further away). At least with w[236A/B], you have enough time to run or use rasenwolf to followup the confirm, and is easier to do.

[Dreize]

The best starter in wolf mode is w[5B], for human mode I'd just go with h[2C] since it's relatively fast (and a h[2C CH] leads to big damage in the corner if you use the 2C CH > 6C route).

The biggest issue with the w[5B] re-launch nerf is the fact that our corner carry off of random wolf hits (w[j.A], w[5A], etc) is slightly nerfed. I mean, we can quite obviously do something such as w[5A > 5C > 6D > j.A > 5B > j.A > j.236B > 6D, etc] but at the end of the day we're using 2 command dashes instead of 1. Though we could potentially do w[5A > 5C > 6D > j.A > 5B > IAD > j.A > j.B > 5B x N] for solid corner carry and a sub-par IAD ender. Since we now have the w[5C] gatlings it's not too big of a deal though.

All versions of beast cannon are laughably sub-par at best as pressure tools in my opinion.

w[j.214A/B] is practically useless outside of being a semi-rare combo filler and for situational anti-air baits. You'll see it being used a bit in the Valkenhayn mirror as well. w[j.236A/B] is slightly better but really nothing special. At the end of the day you're committing to a 22 frame start-up mid hitting attack that is negative on block. They're also quite easy to get hit out of (especially during start-up).

Beast cannons can be a solid ranged punish though (kinda like nacht rosen in this regard). They can also be good for movement since they use less wolf meter than rasen wolf.

But using them regularly for pressure is just a bad habit, plain and simple. And like nacht jager you can get away with it a lot of time on netplay since people don't know the match-up (which just further reinforces the bad habit).

Using it on occasion as a pressure tool is fine, but don't become even remotely reliant on it. Especially since you need to dish out more wolf meter to make it semi-safe and applying further pressure is pretty much out of the question.