Guilty Bits video series- Official thread

[Zidane]

@dream maker: on my phone so I can't post I'm depth as I want / can't have your post to look at while I post. You can't always confirm 2S into 2D or 2S into a combo afterwards but watching the video I got the feeling that it was pretty much impossible. It's not the easiest but the confirms off these pokes are possible and lead into huge damage + knockdown. Watching the vid I got the impression that Anji throws out meh buttons and prays that he gets a knockdown to run unstoppable Oki on the opponent until he wins and I just feel that's not the case.

The oki situation: Anji's ok is good. I'm pretty sure I said that in one of my posts . It's better then good. But again, if we call his powerful, what do we call Millias? Unstoppable God Strength? I understand what he gets off it and what it leads to, I've been playing him since reload. But let's actually LOOK at what it provides. Butterfly provides a small gap in which you can apply 1 mixup / cross up opportunity that a lot of the time you're not even forced to take. I've made air tight mixup situations but they're not the ones you posted in that link (assuming you mean Te same thing I think you mean). If you hit a button as fast as possible after a dash and they fd it chances are you just gimped your setup. If you make it more tight your options get lower but now you have real oki that they're forced to take. And yes both cases if hit lead to knockdown into the same setup.

Now look at Millias... You are FORCED to take 2-3 mixups that you can't react too that leads into the exact same situation. Seriously you actually have to guess. Now I know she's the best but wouldn't you call THAT powerful?

@tataki: since you removed the video i cant rewatch it but I have no problem with you saying Anji is dependant on oki because he is. The thing is I'm pretty sure you didn't say that. All I remember is the first 10 seconds where you said is neutral game was lacking but he had a powerful Oki game and that's where my problem is. I feel like his neutral game is better then a lot of people's actually due to autoguard on pokes. And again, the word powerful.. If you want to say he's oki dependant or the oki could lead to strong damage and knockdown and oki all over again that's fine.

Btw: Anji's strongest combos (atleast that I've done, that have done 80 to 90 percent) came off confirming hits outside of Butterfly oki. Butterfly oki allows you to do confirm combos without the confirm but with prorated damage.

And if I didn't reply to anything it's cause I'm on a phone

[mynus]

I like the discussion going on here. We can learn from this and make sure we have the most accurate info out there for the beginners. Btw I play I-no not Anji for the record.

If its not too late I think we should try to get at least 2 people who are well established in the community to double check the scripts for correct and accurate info. Preferably those who are good/place well in tournament. If anyone wants to check the I-no script I worked on feel free to ask tataki if its ok.

[M.Song]

In that case instead of keeping the script private between the writer and tataki, why not have each script writer make a thread in their char's forums with the script give people like a week to read over and see if it accurately runs down the character properly?

[Osuna]

Snip

As I recall the video begins with something to the effect that Anji makes up for his poor ability with pokes with a strong oki game. So someone did indeed say his pokes were bad, and whether that's what was meant doesn't really matter (it doesn't change to result, the problem, or the solution). I Know that's not what you're trying to say. I in fact also know what you were trying to say about the three pokes, but the context and wording made it come out wrong. I'm not accusing you of Thinking something incorrect. I'm saying what you said doesn't convey what you're thinking.

It is misleading. There is no amount of reasons why it was said or good intentions that can make something misleading stop being misleading, so you don't have to explain what your reasoning was because it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

Anji is indeed a character who is dependent on oki. Some characters aren't. I'm going to disagree with Zidane on the appropriateness of the word powerful. I think using strong language is fine for this case because it is more interesting language and I don't find the existence of millia to be a persuasive reason to not use the word.

What do you call millia's oki? Something like "the best". There. Sets her apart in an exciting way from all the characters who have merely strong or powerful or good oki. Very generic terms that help drum up interest. From a communication standpoint I completely disagree with the idea that you're boxing yourself in by setting the bar too high with Anji's oki. There's plenty of ways to communicate the superiority of stronger oki without sounding strange.

[TheRealBobMan]

I second MSong's idea.

As a bonus, even newbs that lack the experience to comment can feel like they participated by finding links to good !current! matches that Novril can pull footage from to highlight what people agree is important to include. It helps foster community involvement.

[Digital Watches]

I think that'd be the best way to go about it, if Tataki is okay with it.

[tataki]

Even though the episodes were just fine until now, I really don't mind, as long as it avoids hivemind situations of "We know forum member X so let whatever he says takes over".

Regarding Anji, I'll make an effort to describe him in a way that reflects the personal experience of both Zidane and DM with the character, if that's even possible. I'd like to hear Zidane's pros and cons list for the character in a detailed form though.

I think that'd be the best way to go about it, if Tataki is okay with it.

I believe you still have access to the final version of the Axl script. Now is the time for fine tuning.

[mynus]

A whole forum would be a little too much I think. Too many people trying to input can create a situation where there is alot of disagreement happening , making it harder for the finished product to be approved by all -> being on time for the episode. Just a few ppl I feel is enough to run down things without the forum/ thread being sidetracked by arguments, and sans input from lurkers who dont even play the char, but are trying to clutter it with their opinions.

2-3 ppl per char max I feel is sufficient due to time constraints as well as most of the scripts near completion already at this point. Lets not get too open and create chaos when we are aiming for refinement.

[722]

I can't believe I'm coming out of, like, a 6-year break from the online GG community over something so petty, but whatever.

You either a) have absolutely no knowledge of a good Anji and base your information on the garbage ones you see / opinions from other Anjis or b) lack the knowledge and the understanding to be making these type of videos. I honestly believe it's both.

Have you completely lost sight of the target audience for these videos? They're for people who are completely new to the game and need guidance. Don't pretend you've never seen a new player mistake stomp crossups and Fuujin followups for Anji's B&B mixups while completely missing the butterfly wakeups, or get themselves killed trying to throw out his awkward-ass normals like he's Faust or something. Sure, there are ways for Anji to pressure the fuck out of people after Fuujin, there are times he can use his normals to control space really effectively, and there are times he can't rely on lather-rinse-repeat wakeups to win. That all requires a sophisticated understanding of matchups and obscure move properties. In other words, it's completely outside the scope of a video that's designed to give guidance to people who are diving into GG sight unseen.

And then all of this bickering over whether to call his wakeups "powerful" or just "good?" Are you kidding me? Since GG came out, the biggest barrier to the growth of the American scene has been the lack of easy-to-understand resources for new players. Someone is finally putting in hours of thankless work to solve this problem and you're nitpicking over an inconsequential word choice?

[M.Song]

A whole forum would be a little too much I think. Too many people trying to input can create a situation where there is alot of disagreement happening , making it harder for the finished product to be approved by all -> being on time for the episode. Just a few ppl I feel is enough to run down things without the forum/ thread being sidetracked by arguments, and sans input from lurkers who dont even play the char, but are trying to clutter it with their opinions.

2-3 ppl per char max I feel is sufficient due to time constraints as well as most of the scripts near completion already at this point. Lets not get too open and create chaos when we are aiming for refinement.

I did think that having the entire char forums would be a lot of people... but judging by how often a char forum gets the 'recent activity' icon light up, I figured most people wouldn't even bother contributing in the first place. The other point about disagreement is that in the end... someone is going to be right and someone is going to be wrong when it comes to character's strength/weaknesses, good moves, bad moves (which to me seemed to be what brought this up in the first place). Discussion in the char forums should hopefully just make everyone more educated about their chars.

Either way this was just an alternative suggestion, so I just threw this out as an idea instead of DO THIS OR DIE.

[iora]

i also second the 'hey you should have character specialists review scripts before they are used if possible'

just throwing that out there.

and my minor opinion on the wording choices... just make the wording consistent across the videos. if you make it clear that characters a, b, and c are better than d, e, and, f at task x, y, or z.... the word used doesn't matter. but if you say over half the cast is good as task x, y, or z... and leave it at that, it is not really painting the picture like it should.

its the same logic we don't have 2 tiers in the tier list. even letters do the job if it is separated enough to grasp the concept for who stands where. the word in question is not the problem, its what words and how they relate to each other really.

thats all im saying about it.

[Digital Watches]

I believe you still have access to the final version of the Axl script. Now is the time for fine tuning.

Yup. I'll put what we have on the forum and mess with it some more personally when I have some free time. To avoid the issues mynus mentioned, I'm going to just post the script as a thread, allow open discussion, and edit it with whatever I see as appropriate and worthwhile to mention. It's not *exactly* democratic, but it fits with how this forum handles such threads normally.

[mynus]

Yup. I'll put what we have on the forum and mess with it some more personally when I have some free time. To avoid the issues mynus mentioned, I'm going to just post the script as a thread, allow open discussion, and edit it with whatever I see as appropriate and worthwhile to mention. It's not *exactly* democratic, but it fits with how this forum handles such threads normally.

Sounds like a good plan to me. I'll follow suit then if thats all right with Tataki.

[reaVer]

Even though the episodes were just fine until now,

No, the Order Sol episode was also bad. That said, I would like that script up for review.

[tataki]

No, the Order Sol episode was also bad. That said, I would like that script up for review.

I'm not touching any of the published episodes. Anji has some stuff which I want to improve anyway, but not the others. In any case I don't see how we'll be able to work together if you think my work is "bad". Maybe you should just go make your own guides.

[BaneFang]

The Order Sol episode is super good. What is it missing that a beginner needs to know?

[Brandinoli]

No, the Order Sol episode was also bad. That said, I would like that script up for review.

Define super bad cause if it was as bad as you claimed it was then you would've been bitching a fucking storm when the episode FIRST CAME OUT.

[Circuitous]

Stay free, reaVer.

[reaVer]

Define super bad cause if it was as bad as you claimed it was then you would've been bitching a fucking storm when the episode FIRST CAME OUT.

Actually, I did throw a fit. I even explained why in the post that came after. But hey, if tataki wants to give people the wrong idea about the character, he's free to do so. It just voids the purpose of the series in my opinion.

Circuitous: sure I will! I'm just a noob with no knowledge of what he's doing afterall!

[Digital Watches]

I hear sarcastically rephrasing what someone said is a good way of proving it's not the case. Much better than making cogent and thorough arguments using specific examples, or demonstrating the merits of what you're saying empirically.

[reaVer]

Well, actually, if I beat you now you should feel insulted. I haven't touched the game in over 6 months :D

[Circuitous]

I've never seen a clearer indication that a line of discussion wasn't worth pursuing.

[tataki]

I don't know what's the impression people got but the process of making the episodes will stay the same, which means we do it in private. If, as a contributor, you want to share with another specific player and hear his take, you talk to me first, we talk about the problem and if needed I give him access myself. This is how it worked until now and this is how I'm going to continue. In any case I'll make sure to handle each script more carefully, avoid any possible vague descriptions from now on, and maybe even handpick a test group for each script.

Regardless of minor problems which can and will be fixed, in order for this whole project to work you have to have trust in me, my work methods and my judgement. If you can't do that, we can't work together anyway.

[reaVer]

Tataki: I've now made multiple, reasonably nice(especially for my standards; I might secretly be growing up as we speak :'( ) attempts to start proper communication with you and I've shown on several occasions now that I'm more than willing to work with you. And you can ask around anywhere... if I didn't trust in your efforts at all, I would simply ignore you and not even waste time beyond the "you're completely wrong" statement. The only one between the two of us being pessimistic is you. Like I've said, you can disregard my opinion (even if I am one of the stronger non-Japanese Order Sol players) all you want; it's not something I care about. Heck it's easier to piss off noobs with doing stuff they think is wrong that way.

[tataki]

I was making a general statement for everyone. In your case you'll have to convince me and Brandino how we were wrong about the content we put for the HOS episode. I haven't seen any posts regarding that.