Super Smash Bros 4

[Agni]

God I love Power Stone... that game was so much fun.

The wavedashing was something that I didn't want to see as a global effect like it was in Melee... I would have preferred it open to characters that needed the momentum advantage (Bower, Ganondorf, etc.)

Outside of that, it was a bug... it was fix... players lived with it or moved on.

Having wavedashing specific to certain characters would be odd. Really, if they could just not have slower characters be so difficult to use properly that'd be fine.

The series as a whole as always had a bit of a weird float to the jumps... it effected some characters more than others. All-Stars does something rather similar to that effect....

Speed is an odd one, I am not sure is Brawl is as slow as everyone believes... but I think that the gulf in speed differences are MUCH more pronounced in Brawl than Melee. And I lay this at the feet of FUCKING SONIC! I think if the character wasn't in the game speed would have been adjusted to something that is difference in feeling than what was in the final game.... Seriously, Sonic being the fastest character in the game may have effected EVERYTHING, seeing how he was a late entry to the game in development..

It's not about the jumping. Go to Melee and hit someone when they're at a high %, and go do the same in Brawl. In Melee they fly VERY fast and fall quickly, while in Brawl they lazily fly and then slow down a ton, enough to where DI can get you back to the stage easily unless you're at like 250% or something. This slows down the whole game because people live longer and they don't have be as careful--in Melee, you were FUCKED if someone got a good smash attack on you at anything higher than like 120%.

Ok, this is hard... because of the issue around wavedashing.... The problem here was the meta game revolving around momentum, and how wavedashing effect that greatly. Part of that has to do with the fact that it was a global effect to characters in Melee, which in turn broke the established game-play because it worked around speed-presets of the characters in question.

This was addressed by outright removing the technique entirely, but had the adverse effect of damning any character that was slow (Bower, Ganondorf, etc.)... so tripping was more or less a means of braking the flow of momentum. So say that this solution was in-elegant is an understatement, since so much of smash's meta game ran on positioning and momentum of you and the opponent(s).... tripping forced a brake to that, even with trip-canceling.

It doesn't matter WHY tripping was put in: it's completely stupid due to being utterly random and completely unavoidable. You could do nothing to prevent tripping. You don't pull shit like that, you do what every other fucking fighting game dev does and BALANCE YOUR GODDAMN GAMEPLAY.

It was put in because Sakurai hates competitive gaming. And he still does. Which is why I have extremely low hopes for this next one.

[Chainsaw Guitar]

What i would love to see is nintendo taking out the option to turn off the items

This. If you can't adjust to any variables like random item drops how can you call yourself a skilled player.

[Celerity]

I don't much care for items for competitive play, but I do think people should embrace more stages. There's nothing imbalanced or random about a stage; even if you argue that nonstandard stages favor certain characters, I would counter that FD favors certain characters as well. I think it would be cool to have it like Starcraft where the loser of a set picks the next stage.

[KawaiiB]

This. If you can't adjust to any variables like random item drops how can you call yourself a skilled player.

Smash outsells most fighting games because it's easy to grasp (for casuals), and it holds better player's attention because it's hard to master. Let people be able to turn items off and on. If you don't want them off, that's fine. Not everyone likes to play with them. Especially in Brawl.

[Agni]

The ability to alter items drops is important even if you're not a tourney-player. I always turned off healing items and when I did play Brawl I'd turn off the smash balls (they break the flow of a match too much, since as soon as one appears everyone focuses on getting it), for instance.

[Chainsaw Guitar]

>Thinking a party game is hard to master

[Agni]

Have you ever seen competitive Melee? That shit is positively insane.

[F. Wily]

Having wavedashing specific to certain characters would be odd. Really, if they could just not have slower characters be so difficult to use properly that'd be fine.

I would rather the verity that comes with characters of different builds, but for those that are disadvantage in the meta game.... they have a boost that require some work to preform, mostly execution based.

Having characters at the same speed (which is the next logical jump to what you just said) would lead to a boring game.

It's not about the jumping. Go to Melee and hit someone when they're at a high %, and go do the same in Brawl. In Melee they fly VERY fast and fall quickly, while in Brawl they lazily fly and then slow down a ton, enough to where DI can get you back to the stage easily unless you're at like 250% or something. This slows down the whole game because people live longer and they don't have be as careful--in Melee, you were FUCKED if someone got a good smash attack on you at anything higher than like 120%.

DI?

It doesn't matter WHY tripping was put in: it's completely stupid due to being utterly random and completely unavoidable. You could do nothing to prevent tripping. You don't pull shit like that, you do what every other fucking fighting game dev does and BALANCE YOUR GODDAMN GAMEPLAY.

It was put in because Sakurai hates competitive gaming. And he still does. Which is why I have extremely low hopes for this next one.

I would argue that it does, because understand the problem to what that mechanic was trying to fix gives an understanding to other things that might be possible. As I said, tripping was a failed experiment, but other dev have done something similar. Burst is similar to that in some respects with the exception that the risk was a success for ASW... they literally can't make a game without burst now.

Their is another reason, players of all types were bothered by tripping... because it simply effected the flow to a stand still and the probability counter was WAY to high. That said, the core issue hasn't changed. Smash has a feedback loop once momentum gets going, so as long as you have your positioning down... you simply keep feeding that loop by doing damage, and recovery options are limited to stopping that once the %'s gets higher. Tripping broke that loop, BUT upon braking it.. all momentum is gone and betting back to the feedback loop isn't easy in brawl because of the movement changes. The issue still remains however... And I am kind of expecting that something will address it this time, but tripping (as far as I see it) isn't the answer.

The reason to this being important has little to do with competitive gaming. Competitive gaming is a happy side effect for a good or popular game, and honestly lay at the side-lines to what the core fundamentals of a game is. Something Sakurai has more or less said outright... It not a matter of hate, it a matter of being irrelevant to development.

Honestly, if you love Melee that much beg Nintendo to release that game on the eshop/VC...

[Agni]

That's not what I said.

Tripping is random. You cannot prepare for it. It merely strikes randomly and for no reason at all. That's anathema to an FG, especially a competitive one. Burst on the other hand, is limited and triggered by the player. Using it's a an actual tactic.

Anyway, DI is Directional Input, it's when you use the control stick to move yourself in midair after getting hit.

[KawaiiB]

Tripping is random. You cannot prepare for it. It merely strikes randomly and for no reason at all. That's anathema to an FG, especially a competitive one. Burst on the other hand, is limited and triggered by the player. Using it's a an actual tactic.

I've heard that in Brawl, the hardest technical thing to learn is tripping on command. lulz

Also, it's been revealed that in the latest Pokemon movie, Mewtwo is not only staring in it (alongside Genesect) but he's also getting a new form. o.O Normally I wouldn't think that would matter much to Smash, but since he's notorious for being "meh" at absolute best in Melee, maybe it will affect his moveset in some way? We can hope.

[Koopa_Klawz]

I've heard that in Brawl, the hardest technical thing to learn is tripping on command. lulz

Also, it's been revealed that in the latest Pokemon movie, Mewtwo is not only staring in it (alongside Genesect) but he's also getting a new form. o.O Normally I wouldn't think that would matter much to Smash, but since he's notorious for being "meh" at absolute best in Melee, maybe it will affect his moveset in some way? We can hope.

Where was that confirmed?

[KawaiiB]

Where was that confirmed?

It's teased at the end of the trailer. Which makes sense since Genesect is getting a new form as well. Most people are thinking it's going to be something like a "Super Sayain" type deal. No physical changes, just superpowered and some cool aura effects. You can check out serebii as well if you like. It's teased "You don't know the REAL Mewtwo yet"

[Koopa_Klawz]

It's teased at the end of the trailer. Which makes sense since Genesect is getting a new form as well. Most people are thinking it's going to be something like a "Super Sayain" type deal. No physical changes, just superpowered and some cool aura effects. You can check out serebii as well if you like. It's teased "You don't know the REAL Mewtwo yet"

Yea I've already seen that. "The new Mewtwo form" looks to be just a rumor so far.

[KawaiiB]

Here's a few interesting links:

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/new-smash-bros-for-wiiu.304894/page-2458#post-14331042

http://www.smashboards.com/threads/new-smash-bros-for-wiiu.304894/page-2675#post-14462546

http://forum.starmen.net/forum/Storage/SmashBros/I-ve-been-making-a-comprehensive-list-of-unused-characters

The first one is about unused character ideas from 64, the second is about Melee, and the third is pretty much a jumbo list about unused stuff from them all.

[F. Wily]

Tripping is random. You cannot prepare for it. It merely strikes randomly and for no reason at all.

Yes and no, tripping is a random element to the game play... but it is something that a player can be prepared for. My only problem with trip-canceling as it stands is that it doesn't allow to the player to be invincible during the roll of the cancel. Which is an oversight I think... and one of the bigger reasons to why I think of brawl as a really big beta game, there are elements to the system that are clearly rushed or left unfinished.

That's anathema to an FG, especially a competitive one..

You know, this is where I am going to have to stop you... since the competitiveness of any game is dictated by the players itself, not system mechanics. Despite being unfinished as a game, people play brawl at a competitive level... tripping doesn't stop them (and I should know, I have a few associates of mine have made the run to Apex over the last three years... they all play brawl).

Burst on the other hand, is limited and triggered by the player. Using it's a an actual tactic..

Ok, I guest that I invited the direct comparison when there wasn't one. What I was comparing was this... Burst was put into GGXX because in GGX once you get started with momentum... it doesn't stop.

GGX had a nasty feedback loop where the attacking player could just go ham on a guy, the player watching the combo could simply do nothing about it... at high level play, this was all that was left. Burst built to brake that aggressive momentum, primarily. All other aspects of Burst on the offence was simply put in to make a player choose between getting an advantage (a whole set of options that comes with full tension) and keeping it or having a "get out of combo jail free" card when the issue cropped up.

To that, the fact that tripping was mean to address an aggressive momentum loop... was the only thing being compared. The reason that I consider it a failed experiment partly due to the randomness of all... the fact that mitigating factors (i.e.: trip-canceling) didn't save you from counter aggression when it's performed... the simple fact that it reset the momentum in a situation with a negative as oppose to neutral (as Burst does), etc.

Which is why I don't really expect it to be in the next game, since it really fails at stopping the thing that it is meant to address. But the core issue to Smash's game-play remains... And I expect that some solution would be found to that.

[TheRealBobMan]

I'd rant about why I don't like tripping, but let's change it up just a little bit and talk about some of the other mechanics in Brawl we don't want to see come back.

1. Random input lag. Whenever you pressed a button, there was input lag of 0-2 frames that was random. The Project M guys recently figured this out and fixed it. That's such a horrible oversight.

2. Extra lag when landing on the stage after using certain moves. I'm not talking about recovery frames! If you did your upB and grabbed the ledge, then jumped around and eventually landed on the stage, you'd have extra lag when finally touching the ground. It varied from character to character, move to move (SideB, DownB, you name it), it was minor enough that most new players wouldn't notice it, and major enough to screw people up. You can play around it for sure, but it's pretty frustrating. If they really want to do this, at least make more of the moves make sense. Wario can move when jumping off of his Bike, so why does he get an extra 20 or so frames of landing lag when he touches the ground after spending 10 seconds in the air?

[KawaiiB]

Thought I would drop this article off here:

First SSB4 Interview with Sakurai: http://www.ign.com/articles/2011/06/08/e3-2011-early-super-smash-bros-details-revealed

General summery (written by ToiseOfChoice):

- Sakurai's suggestion for connectivity implies that both versions will be identical in terms of regular gameplay (characters/balance, stages, physics, items, whatnot). This is less work than designing two rosters anyway and there's more than enough evidence that the 3DS can keep up (8GB carts and SSFIV mainly).

- I'm guessing the big single-player mode of this game (like SSE for Brawl) will be based around the whole character building concept AND I'd wager that you'll be able to build on either system (though 3DS will be preferred). The "Wii U as the stadium" bit makes me think of either online dealies or possibly breaking the 4-player limit.

- My money says you'll be able to use the 3DS as a controller for the Wii U. Probably the easiest way to make that transfer between systems that Sakurai seems to want, plus Miyamoto has already said some stuff about it.

- The main mode itself... well, there's nothing on it yet. But his comments about helping other players and his time-proven love for co-op stuff leads me to think it'll be more team-oriented than regular Smash. That's what wishful thinking from Toise looks like, anyway.

[Devdan]

- I'm guessing the big single-player mode of this game (like SSE for Brawl)

- The main mode itself... well, there's nothing on it yet.

Hopefully you are guessing wrong. SSE was such a bust, what a waste of resources. And I say this as someone who enjoyed the beat 'em up mode in Tekken 6.

[KawaiiB]

Yeah, I agree, but his team this time around is much much bigger and more prepared that any team to ever tackles a Smash title. So, I'm sure we will get some sort of new story-mode, but it won't be so harmful to the rest of the game like it was during Brawl's development. (SSE took an ungodly amount of time)

[F. Wily]

And so.... Megaman... OG Megaman.

A shame for the ZX characters... but seriously, honest to goodness Original pea shooting Megaman...

I am happy.