[CP] Hazama Gameplay Discussion [New members read first post]

[ThatKid]

>Say 'normal command grab'

>Implying bloody fangs is a grab and not a gimped guard break

Minor off topic: I've took the liberty of making a Hazama general discussion group for anyone who wants it

Edited May 30, 2013 by ThatKid

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Does anyone know the proration values for Gashou (S) vs. Zaneiga (S)? That's a question I've been wondering for some time because it seems like most players prefer the Gashou > ??? route now instead of our beloved Zaneiga > 6C

I checked the wiki but it doesn't have it yet 8(

[Putin]

Gasshou path seems to allow more j.C reps, which means superior corner carry. That's my guess on why they choose this path midscreen, now when it comes to the corner...

I did notice that people keep turning back to Zaneiga in the corner lately, so I guess Gasshou is just... easier? It definitely eats up less time though since 6C is pretty slow, but I still want to believe that it remains optimal in terms of damage.

I was really looking forward to Houtenjin combos using both specials, but the new combo system doesn't seem to cooperate. People just go for Zaneiga > crossunder 5C > 6C > 5C > 2C > Jakou > 5C > 2C > j.C mash, even off 5C > Houtenjin

[Lich]

Does anyone know the proration values for Gashou (S) vs. Zaneiga (S)? That's a question I've been wondering for some time because it seems like most players prefer the Gashou > ??? route now instead of our beloved Zaneiga > 6C

I checked the wiki but it doesn't have it yet 8(

The P2 is better on Zaneiga. I think Gashou is just better for corner carry so that makes sense.

>Implying bloody fangs is a grab and not a gimped guard break

Bloody fang is a command grab no matter how you look at it... It's throw invuln and if you get hit by it while mashing grab you get TRM... it's a command grab. Regardless of its effects it IS a command grab.

[ThatKid]

It's throw invuln and if you get hit by it while mashing grab you get TRM

well there we go, i've been using it wrong since day 1 then...

[Desert Fox]

I wonder how you guys dash install every single move with Hazama with little effort. Whenever I try to dash install, I screw up a combo and eat one instead. Any tips on the matter?

Edited June 1, 2013 by Desert Fox

[AMB Bakery]

You shouldn't have to "dash install" unless you're playing on a really laggy set-up. Are talking about doing dash 5C/6C? Generally you can differ 5C and 6C by holding back whenever you do dashing 5C. As for the timing, it's just something you have to commit to muscle-memory. It all depends on what you're trying to link from (236D, 623D, j.214B, 6C, etc). For practice, just do midscreen zaneiga (scoop) combo to practice dashing 5C and any decent normal into 3C > 236D into dash (optional 5C(1)) 6C.

[Desert Fox]

Hmm.. Good. My lack of mastery in wave-dashing though is mostly shown when I'm pressuring the opponent on block. Since Hazama's attacks push him from the enemy, it creates a distance in where the latter can escape and I can't use Ressenga to reset pressure because it can be punished by a dp or some other type of reversal.

Also do you know some chain movement exercises? Anything useful in improving my movement because, as you can see, I'm very scrubby using it.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Desert Fox

[AMB Bakery]

It's not wave-dashing (even if it does kind of look like it), but okay. Knowing how to do dash normals is really important to this game and other Arcsys fighters. Also, the [something > ressenga] gap is punishable no matter what, even if it's 5C > ressenga. If you're getting hit out of it, either your opponent is not respecting your pressure/mix-up or your pressure strings into it could be easily readable. Try and mix it up a little bit. You'd be surprised at how easily something like [2A > 214D~A] x2 can force your opponent to be on their toes.

As far as chain movement goes, just try doing D follow-up immediately, at full extension, and then somewhere in between. Do this for j.6D, j.4D, 5D and j.D. Also remember to do B-follow-up sometimes to either mix-up your approach, evade/escape, or just annoy your opponent. C follow-up is really good, just use it sparingly lest you get counter-hit. This last bit is just my opinion: get good at doing j.4D asap after a jump. Doing any jump-cancellable move into j.4D~(not A) opens up a world of mix-up.

[Lich]

When it comes to pressure, first mashing resets is never a good idea because then your opponent is never going to respect you and just mash, jump, etc all day. Also, you won't be able to hit them with a reset when you REALLY need that extra hit. When you get a hit it is better to just go for the damage because you get the most meter out of it and can definitely get into their head better on oki rather than just mashing resets. Scouting out them jumping, mashing, whatever with 3C is much better and then using jabaki afterwards if they block it is much safer. There are few characters who can actually punish a delayed, not air-tight jabaki, but that comes down to match-ups. If they can punish a 3C>delayed jabaki, you can always just 3C directly into Jabaki and it is air-tight. Hazama's pressure is about frame-traps, pokes and getting the opponent to try to do something so they take bigger damage. Almost everything is plus and he has a non-comboable overhead and a command grab. If you repeatedly surprise them with these annoying tools you can make them try to do something. They try to jump, most of the shit is air tight and they'll get tagged, they'll try to mash, but Hazama is always at frame advantage. Finally you'll make 'em mash something risky. You bait it, there's your damage. GGGG

On some match-ups though it's not all about pressure and it's much better to just keep your distance because Hazama is stronger than a good majority of the cast a screen away.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Lich

[Putin]

Scouting out them jumping, mashing, whatever with 3C is much better and then using jabaki afterwards if they block it is much safer.

Would you mind explaining this a little further?

I keep seeing Hazamas just end their blockstrings with 3C > Jabaki, assuming that they don't want to take the "risk" of actually pressuring the opponent since there's chains and shit. But it still felt like a waste of a "block-confirm" exactly because our pressure may not last for days but it is pretty safe overall.

I guess I'm missing something here.

[Lich]

Would you mind explaining this a little further?

I keep seeing Hazamas just end their blockstrings with 3C > Jabaki, assuming that they don't want to take the "risk" of actually pressuring the opponent since there's chains and shit. But it still felt like a waste of a "block-confirm" exactly because our pressure may not last for days but it is pretty safe overall.

I guess I'm missing something here.

Okay so 3C has many uses in block-strings. In generally it is just used as a block-string ender. It's primary use is to do 3C>Jabaki as a way to create space so you can return to neutral and try to get in a hit that way. This is great against characters like Tager, Ragna, or anyone with those good reversals that you don't want to take any part in getting hit by them so the match turns on you. It allows Hazama to dictate the flow of the match. Now, when you've become mix-up heavy on someone they'll want to jump, mash or whatever to try to get out. If you haven't been using 3C very much in your block-strings it can surprise them very much when you finally do. There are a couple frame-traps involving 3C and it can just catch people expecting you to jump cancel or something cuz they yomi blocking. 3C Also leaves them floating for an hour, so when I say 'scouting out' I literally mean after throwing out 3c wait a second to see if it hits. If so, JYAKOU HOUTENJIN! If not, just keep it safe by throwing out a Jabaki. After some conditioning with Jabaki you can even continue pressure because of fear of the counter-hit afterwards by doing stance instead despite it being unsafe. So 3C is actually really good in block-strings, but on some characters any space between 3c and Jabaki is punishable regardless.

The characters that can punish a delayed Jabaki, if you were curious at least to my understanding are Relius and Tager. Other characters can do it too, but they have to take a risk in doing so or use a resource while Tager and Relius punish it for free. 100%

Edited June 2, 2013 by Lich

[Putin]

That makes sense, I'll try it out and see how it fares against my opponents' awkward way of thinking.

I guess this is a fine example of the 3C thing working? Yumura kept getting hit by those 3Cs even after 2B or something. Which is weird, but yeah

Also, how exactly can Relius punish delayed Jabaki? Led Ley through it > some doll normal?

[Lich]

That makes sense, I'll try it out and see how it fares against my opponents' awkward way of thinking.

I guess this is a fine example of the 3C thing working? Yumura kept getting hit by those 3Cs even after 2B or something. Which is weird, but yeah

Also, how exactly can Relius punish delayed Jabaki? Led Ley through it > some doll normal?

Yes. Although in that respect I guess I shouldn't say 100%. Doll has to be out.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Lich

[_Sey]

Would you mind explaining this a little further?

I keep seeing Hazamas just end their blockstrings with 3C > Jabaki, assuming that they don't want to take the "risk" of actually pressuring the opponent since there's chains and shit. But it still felt like a waste of a "block-confirm" exactly because our pressure may not last for days but it is pretty safe overall.

I guess I'm missing something here.

If you are playing someone who can consistently IB 5B and mash 2A (and their character has a good enough 2A to challenge 5B 2A or 5B 6A frame trap), on reaction to their IB late gatling into 3C and have them hold dat 5k+corner oki

Edited June 5, 2013 by _Sey

[Seiki]

I forgot all about using delayed gatlings as frame traps.

[_Sey]

Did they change j4D~D (as in "instant" cancel) in BBCP?

I swear it feels like it doesn't fling Hazama to the ground anymore but instead it's just like j6D~D "airdash"

I don't know if it's just the video's resolution or what making me wonder this lol

[Lich]

Did they change j4D~D (as in "instant" cancel) in BBCP?

I swear it feels like it doesn't fling Hazama to the ground anymore but instead it's just like j6D~D "airdash"

I don't know if it's just the video's resolution or what making me wonder this lol

The trajectory is definitely different, but it isn't quite as horizontal as J6D, more in the middle.

[Ctrlaltwtf]

I wonder if it's there to slightly nerf his ability to instantly put himself back onto the ground. oh well

If someone has a video example I'd appreciate it.

---

Worst case scenario would be if they redid his movement algorithm for D cancels and all of them are slightly different now. That would fuck my brain

Edited June 21, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[_Sey]

I wonder if it's there to slightly nerf his ability to instantly put himself back onto the ground. oh well

If someone has a video example I'd appreciate it.

---

Worst case scenario would be if they redid his movement algorithm for D cancels and all of them are slightly different now. That would fuck my brain

http://youtu.be/UvSeRbiyfjU?t=20m29s

it actually looks like the trajectory is slightly...upward?

oh well, I actually like it a lot more than the old j4D~D, I don't get why they made such change though, maybe they wanted people to use j2D~D a bit more? w/e

I don't have a video example on hand but I'm pretty sure they changed j9D~D a bit too

Edited June 21, 2013 by _Sey

[Ctrlaltwtf]

Whoa, that's a big difference. j4D~D used to be perfect for setting up Gasaishou. I think if you tried it with the way it is in CP you'd end up flying into their head instead of going back onto the ground.

That's seriously like a perfect 0 degree horizontal in that video.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Lich]

Well the gravity of the game is different so I do think all of his chains move a little different. Also you can cancel into a normal a frame sooner, so there's that. The dynamics of movement are definitely going to be different, but it shouldn't take too long to get used to it again.

Also if you look a little later in the video he uses 4D again but this time waits like 2 or 3 frames.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvSeRbiyfjU&feature=player_detailpage#t=1502s

I think they just changed just how dramatically canceling the chain early changes your trajectory, and intern this gives Hazama more movement options.

EDIT: Lol apparently it didn't copy when I did it.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Lich

[Ctrlaltwtf]

http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/battle-oumonotype-35640627

lolwut?

Well the gravity of the game is different so I do think all of his chains move a little different. Also you can cancel into a normal a frame sooner, so there's that. The dynamics of movement are definitely going to be different, but it shouldn't take too long to get used to it again.

I've noticed that CP chains look like they're more...clunky? Like the bite-down animation is very clearly animated now, and I think it increases the amount of time Hazama is punishable on whiffs. This seems like it'll force us to be a bit more cautious with our chains (which, admittedly, is probably an appropriate minor nerf)

p.s. I'd really love a "slightly downward angle" chain cancel. I wonder if the new j4D~D can be cleverly delayed to achieve this.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Ctrlaltwtf

[Lich]

Probably, but yeah they increased the recovery on chains when not canceled so they'll be much easier to punish careless use or getting caught without stocks.

[AMB Bakery]

I experimented with j.4D in training mode a little bit back when EX first came out. I think if you can get away with it doing it early in a pressure string, you should probably do it as it leads to 5-way mix-up (D follow-up for front, C follow-up for behind, air or ground depending on when you cancel, and by the time you land you should be able to throw/command throw).