[Xrd] News & (Theoretical) Gameplay Discussion

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

How come whenever someone says anything negative about the game it's trolling? Despite the fact that I've been having tournaments with my friends and getting them into Guilty Gear just for Xrd?

 

Your opinions have no basis in reality, you jump to conclusions based on the opinions of other people and on top of that, rather than taking opinions from both sides, you choose to only hear the negative side. From my side, it looks like confirmation bias, you are so convinced about the game being bad that you only acknowledge the points of view that validate that side.

 

You are either trolling, or have a severe problem in your thought process. People have been polite enough to say you're trolling because no one wants to call you stupid outright. That would be just rude.

[AllyOfJustice]

Imagine trying to get your brothers, cousins and friend into a series, to prepare them for a game that's coming out. And you find out how bad that game you've been waiting for is.
 

Why have Arcsystem works forsaken me?

[D.R.F.]

Look lets just let Ally and Mike Z go hangout and play smash together. We dont need em.

lol I didn't mean that haha. but when you listen to too many outside sources you start questioning shit. like there is shit I hate about xrd (mostly about sol, faust, slayer, and pot). doesnt take away the fact I am stupid obsessed with this game is all

[TITANIUM BEAST!!!]

Imagine trying to get your brothers, cousins and friend into a series, to prepare them for a game that's coming out. And you find out how bad that game you've been waiting for is.

 

Why have Arcsystem works forsaken me?

 

Except that you're assuming the game will be bad, and that assumption is based on other people's opinions, and not even all of them. How do you know the game will be bad? You have no solid ground to base that opinion on. That's why people are freaking out on you.

 

I don't think Mike Z is trolling, for example. He's just giving his opinion based on time actually playing the game. You don't even have that, so what are you so freaked out about? And why are you ignoring all the good press the game is getting from guys like ElvenShadow, who has been playing the game for months?

 

If you can address these points seriously, I'm willing to see you as just some guy who's confused. Otherwise, troll city.

[Fenrir Werwolf]

Now that I think about it, I don't recall on ArcSys giving a clear explaining why they decided not to add in Force Break in Xrd. I wondered what their thoughts were if they were to add that back. I'm guessing it's something that they were basing their mechanics back to #reload.

 

 

They did. Ishiwatari explained that quite clearly in the Gamespot interview: According to Ishiwatari, GG series added many mechanics during the years, and so new players really had a hard time just to begin with.

With xrd, the intention was to have less systems, but to improve them, giving more freedom (in a competitive way)

Example: Rc new system, new systems for chara (Items for faust, ky seals, etc etc)

Source: http://www.gametrailers.com/videos/1rb170/guilty-gear-xrd--sign--e3-2014--fighting-system-interview

 

 

Btw, AllyofJustice is just a bad troll. He made the same post in many sections of Guilty Room just to set a flame, either ignore or ban him...But the first option usually is the funnier

[Hecatom]

Hecatom: Funny, I feel the exact opposite. Maybe you have to watch certain players and certain characters. If anything, the fact that YRC is possible on almost all moves makes it even more exciting. So many more options available. There's no magical depth in being able to do FRCs on hit or block, honestly.

 

SuperJ: The community wasn't as developed back then, people were just happy to have a new game. FRCs were a point of excitement, for sure, as it meant more options compared to GGX, where RCs were very limited.

Don't get me wrong, i like the idea of YRC since they are FRC's without restrictions (though this opens other possible problems), what i don't like that much is that the slowdown in certain way telegraphs the incoming mixup. As for the FRC depth comment, the moment that you can't yrc the move on hit or block, getting a rc instead reduces options, therefore reducing a little of depth on the decision tree.

Depth is all about options and how they affect your strategy, less options, less depth.

Like i said, current Xrd is more limited compared to AC, which is why i said that Xrd feels extremely Vanilla right now and why i want to see the direction they will take GG now with their ne beginning.

On another thing, i still find hillarious how some people who complained that many moves got FRC's on AC and AC+R criticizing as homogenization are now happy with the YRC and PRC which are effectively the same as their hyperbole of everyone getting FRC's on everything, LMAO

Edit

I would actually like to see 2 versions of the RC system, one with cool down and one without it, but that is just me

[shtkn]

Depth is all about options and how they affect your strategy, less options, less depth.

 

 

characters are defined by both their strengths and weaknesses. giving everyone more options isn't always a good thing.

[Blade]

Yeah the screen pause is too long.

 

I was just remembering the clash system in Samurai Showdown games.

 

When blades lock two players circle around the screen and then there's a mash contest... person who mashes more disarms their opponent.

 

I don't think Danger time is like that, but... it seems to share a similar idea.

 

As someone who has played GG since 1998, I can say that this game is probably about as good as SF Alpha 2, probably.  Sure, no Forcebreaks, but you don't really need them to play around with "Modern Cancels" (YRCs).

 

I'm thinking GGXrd Sign is just the first of many updates (besides the Roster is gonna grow, and so is the system, they already said that in an earlier interview)... this is just the foundation and only the beginning.

 

Just gotta be patient.

[SoWL]

I was just remembering the clash system in Samurai Showdown games.

 

When blades lock two players circle around the screen and then there's a mash contest... person who mashes more disarms their opponent.

 

I don't think Danger time is like that, but... it seems to share a similar idea.

Actually, that's exactly what inspired Ishiwatari when he came up with Danger Time, at least according to one of the interviews.

[Hecatom]

characters are defined by both their strengths and weaknesses. giving everyone more options isn't always a good thing.

Of course, i totally agree with that, what i am saying is that the benefits from yrc over frc come with a cost, it offers more options on other things but it took away others that imo where kinda better.

I was typing on my phone so i was obviously not expressing all of what i wanted neither that well :/

[D.R.F.]

Unless we talk, we can never express opinions soundly, unfortunately. Fuck autocorrect. Anyways yrc give characters like pot a way to not be shit tier. Options like that are options nonetheless

[zdravkelja]

I will trust Elven since he has played a game on a high level for a very long time. The game looks fun. Sure, it isn't perfect (personally, I think the FRC/YRC slowdown should be removed when the oponent isn't in hit stun), but this is the first version and I can't wait to see how they will expand on current mechanics. 

[king of heart]

Anyways yrc give characters like pot a way to not be shit tier. Options like that are options nonetheless

The Ramlathal player who beat Elven Shadow was playing Sol today.

while I was playing against him he attempted to Wild throw me when i jumped he YRCed the Wild throw and air grabbed me.

that made me realize the endless possibilities in the game.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Clousephinat]

Just to make things clear, the reason behind the remove of FB has nothing to do with GG being difficult, Daisuke has already said a lot of times that he didn't like FB, if anyone is thinking "perhaps we may have FB later", I don't think that's gonna happen, unfortunately or not.

[Tsukahara]

The Ramlathal player who beat Elven Shadow was playing Sol today.

while I was playing against him he attempted to Wild throw me when i jumped he YRCed the Wild throw and air grabbed me.

that made me realize the endless possibilities in the game.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

 

This is actually one of the reasons that I don't really like YRC's. I would be fine with YRC'ing projectiles, and some other moves, but some things like that should just straight up be punishable. In my opinion, if I think you are going to wild throw me and I back dash to make it whiff, you shouldn't be able to YRC, slow time and punish my back dash when I made a correct read. 

 

I think maybe a limitation should be put on YRC'ing certain moves like that, at least on paper it makes things like tick throw mixups REALLY strong with little to no risk.

 

Personally I also kind of wished they had removed guts and just swapped it be only defence modifiers. As the last 10% of your health actually being 30% of your health seems just silly to me.

[4r5]

If you were really committed to your read, then you would of jabbed his WildThrow, which would also hit him in YRC startup.

[ElvenShadow]

Forgive me if I don't know exactly what you mean by tension pulse but the game certainly DOES change rate of meter gain based on a lot of things. You gain meter slower after using RCs and stuff like that. I'm not sure if Mike Z is talking about something else or just somehow missed it but it's certainly in the game unless you mean something else (?)

[D.R.F.]

Forgive me if I don't know exactly what you mean by tension pulse but the game certainly DOES change rate of meter gain based on a lot of things. You gain meter slower after using RCs and stuff like that. I'm not sure if Mike Z is talking about something else or just somehow missed it but it's certainly in the game unless you mean something else (?)

you got it, thats what they are referring to.

[ElvenShadow]

If you were really committed to your read, then you would of jabbed his WildThrow, which would also hit him in YRC startup.

Exactly, if you got read that hard then the Sol deserves the throw. Plenty of other ways to avoid a throw ( back dash, jab, reversal, use your own YRC to slow time and ?, etc)

[ElvenShadow]

you got it, thats what they are referring to.

Then I have to say sorry Mike, but you are wrong about this one. Is spent hours in sparring mode and have seen tons of times where my rate of meter gain has changed based on my actions. Either for some reason it wasn't in the console build you played yet, was somehow disabled in options, or you just didn't have enough time to test it properly.

[Mike Z]

Then I have to say sorry Mike, but you are wrong about this one. Is spent hours in sparring mode and have seen tons of times where my rate of meter gain has changed based on my actions. Either for some reason it wasn't in the console build you played yet, was somehow disabled in options, or you just didn't have enough time to test it properly.

You're probably correct!

It was the console build at E3, maybe they got rid of it for E3 so Joe Schmo gets to do supers more often?  I could see that being a decision since the effect on tension gain is invisible to most people.

I tested by doing things and having Pot walk forward and timing how long it took him to get 25% by walking after things like an RC or super, or having hit them a bunch like would give you a bonus in AC, and I didn't see a difference.  It was unscientific, of course. :^)

 

Re: less options = less depth

Not necessarily, it depends on what those options really do for you in practice and how many of them really get used.  Look at ST vs like X-Men Mutant Academy or something.

And even if less options did = less depth generally, that does NOT imply that more options = more depth.  See below, right here:

 

Re: Wild Throw YRC air throw

The problem with that is, if you connect with the Wild Throw then a following PKS~UF+H will be ignored.  So it's not a read or a reaction, it's an OS, and a simple one at that.

To me, that's not only not depth, it's a step backward for GG.  You don't have to agree, but OS's like that being such a dominant part of the game are what killed SF4 for me.  I want to be read, not training-mode'd.

 

Re: FRC vs YRC and cancelling to neutral

FRCs are only at certain times on certain moves, and Force Breaks rarely let you make things safe on whiff (Iruka-san is the only FB I can think of that even comes close to what YRCs do).

An FRC you had to commit to, you couldn't whiff a random 6H and then just say "Oops!" and fix it afterward.

The lack of commitment is my biggest problem.  The fact that there are hit-block-whiff OSs is a close second, since you can't YRC on hit or block but you can chain into things that are safe on block.

 

There was a video I wish I could find again where Slayer dizzies Sol then does 5H into Dead On Time.  Sol bursts after the 5H, so Slayer YRCs the Dead On Time after the superflash, blocks the burst and kills Sol.  

Slayer SCREWED UP, and in any other game Sol would have lived, but Slayer had no reason not to be trying to YRC since if Sol didn't burst the super would have finished without being YRC'd.  (If they have burst in previous games you don't hit->super, you just super.)  In that situation, there was no way for Sol to survive, and Slayer didn't have to react to Sol's choice one bit since the relatively simple OS of "press 3 buttons" handles it for him.

 

In my eyes that's just not Guilty Gear, it's not what the game has ever been about.  It's a dumbing-down of the strategy and it removes what made the series fun for me.

Again, you don't have to agree.  Judging by the number of people that still play BB and SF4 I'm not in the majority.  (^.^)

I have always respected Guilty Gear for the intelligent design choices and the way it encouraged knowledgeable, thoughtful play and reactions.  Xrd doesn't feel like that anymore.

[ElvenShadow]

Some frcs could be used that way on whiff. In fact PO 6HS is an example. Now everyone can do those kinds of tricks. Also, YRC can be used in pressure strings in ways if you time things right. At a far enough distance with proper timing I can YRC pogo right before it connects and do a number of things after that if canceling from the right normals for example. I can see your argument but having experienced the system at high level play it still feels deep to me. Sure there are some option selects but GG always had some option selects with things like throws or slash back. And keep in mind it costs meter to YRC. That's less meter for damaging combos or FD etc. it's a shame you dislike the game based on initial impressions. My small initial gripes with te game disappeared over time and I just enjoy playing it. Having a huge thriving scene again also just makes the game more fun to play. If rather play Xrd with tons of comp then AC in a scene that began to get stale and sorta die down over the years. Either way, it certainly feels much closer to past games in the series compared to SFIV or Marvel 3. At least to me anyway.

[ElvenShadow]

I took some photos to prove tension pulse but I don't think I can post them on here from my phone. I'll show them later. Basically though, I took five steps forward with Faust and gained about 25% meter. Them I YRCed and took 5 steps forward again and only got 1/4th the amount from before (so about 6% meter)

[rayplay]

This is actually one of the reasons that I don't really like YRC's. I would be fine with YRC'ing projectiles, and some other moves, but some things like that should just straight up be punishable. In my opinion, if I think you are going to wild throw me and I back dash to make it whiff, you shouldn't be able to YRC, slow time and punish my back dash when I made a correct read. 

 

I think maybe a limitation should be put on YRC'ing certain moves like that, at least on paper it makes things like tick throw mixups REALLY strong with little to no risk.

 

Personally I also kind of wished they had removed guts and just swapped it be only defence modifiers. As the last 10% of your health actually being 30% of your health seems just silly to me.

Now I haven't played the game, so I may be wrong on this, but wouldn't it be a purple RC if he whiffed wild throw for a punish? And don't those cost 50 meter?  

[Destin]

You're probably correct!

It was the console build at E3, maybe they got rid of it for E3 so Joe Schmo gets to do supers more often?  I could see that being a decision since the effect on tension gain is invisible to most people.

I tested by doing things and having Pot walk forward and timing how long it took him to get 25% by walking after things like an RC or super, or having hit them a bunch like would give you a bonus in AC, and I didn't see a difference.  It was unscientific, of course. :^)

 

Re: less options = less depth

Not necessarily, it depends on what those options really do for you in practice and how many of them really get used.  Look at ST vs like X-Men Mutant Academy or something.

And even if less options did = less depth generally, that does NOT imply that more options = more depth.  See below, right here:

 

Re: Wild Throw YRC air throw

The problem with that is, if you connect with the Wild Throw then a following PKS~UF+H will be ignored.  So it's not a read or a reaction, it's an OS, and a simple one at that.

To me, that's not only not depth, it's a step backward for GG.  You don't have to agree, but OS's like that being such a dominant part of the game are what killed SF4 for me.  I want to be read, not training-mode'd.

 

Re: FRC vs YRC and cancelling to neutral

FRCs are only at certain times on certain moves, and Force Breaks rarely let you make things safe on whiff (Iruka-san is the only FB I can think of that even comes close to what YRCs do).

An FRC you had to commit to, you couldn't whiff a random 6H and then just say "Oops!" and fix it afterward.

The lack of commitment is my biggest problem.  The fact that there are hit-block-whiff OSs is a close second, since you can't YRC on hit or block but you can chain into things that are safe on block.

 

There was a video I wish I could find again where Slayer dizzies Sol then does 5H into Dead On Time.  Sol bursts after the 5H, so Slayer YRCs the Dead On Time after the superflash, blocks the burst and kills Sol.  

Slayer SCREWED UP, and in any other game Sol would have lived, but Slayer had no reason not to be trying to YRC since if Sol didn't burst the super would have finished without being YRC'd.  (If they have burst in previous games you don't hit->super, you just super.)  In that situation, there was no way for Sol to survive, and Slayer didn't have to react to Sol's choice one bit since the relatively simple OS of "press 3 buttons" handles it for him.

 

In my eyes that's just not Guilty Gear, it's not what the game has ever been about.  It's a dumbing-down of the strategy and it removes what made the series fun for me.

Again, you don't have to agree.  Judging by the number of people that still play BB and SF4 I'm not in the majority.  (^.^)

I have always respected Guilty Gear for the intelligent design choices and the way it encouraged knowledgeable, thoughtful play and reactions.  Xrd doesn't feel like that anymore.

I generally respect your design decisions and general fighting game philosophy, so I don't want any of this to come off as disrespectful.  You seem to get fighting games in a good way.

 

Regarding more less options:On totally the same page.  Having weaknesses can open up options for the opponent in a different matchup, making them use new tools.

 

Wild throw YRC option select: In general I don't like option selects like that either.  I think something you might be missing though (or I misunderstand myself?) is that most moves when active or in recovery can not be YRC'd.  You must use the purple RC, which has a large startup time where the opponent can hit you and requires 50% meter.  So in the sol scenario, I would not be surprised if he can only purple RC the wild throw, giving the opponent time to air dash out and costing sol him 50% meter.  The same is true with most moves on whiff.  While I would personally be on the side of removal of the ability to cancel things on whiff for the same reason as you, I understand the design logic of simplifying the RC system.  To a newer player knowing that pressing 3 buttons makes any move canceled has a degree of simplicity, perhaps at the cost of higher level mindgames.  It still might be quite possible to punish the purple RC though with some characters, move dependent of course.  And even if I am wrong about the way YRC works in most situations, if we end up with OS fighter like in SF4 it would not be too hard to pull the YRC window back to pre active frames in an update.

 

The slayer scenario: Though I understand the point and think that YRC could be a big issue with bursts (because a burst takes the opponent out of hitstun, you are able to cancel the startup of the move rather than the active frames), that specific scenario slayer always had a way out with his frc on dead on time IIRC.  And that would deal with both situations as well