Axl

[AtTheGates]

placeholder okizeme: - crossup okizeme is highly problematic against axl, because of 2 things: 1. you cannot meaty cross up anyone in guilty gear, so you would need to delay the crossup for at least 1 frame. 2. since you have to delay the crossup, axl has time to do his 1f counter, which has auto turn. he can input it as if it was a fake crossup, and IF you cross him up, he will turn anyway. the result: never mind what you do, left or right, the counter will get you.

[Xeno]

This "you cannot meaty crossup" is because of "Crossguard" functionality?

[Digital Watches]

This "you cannot meaty crossup" is because of "Crossguard" functionality?

Correct. ATG, I'm curious: Does Chipp have any crossguard-breaking moves?

[AtTheGates]

never heard of crossguard as a terminology for the issue, interesting. DW: i have no idea - would this be a crossup meaty that actually hits crossup, then? because, he probably doesn't.

[chun_li1]

Correct. ATG, I'm curious: Does Chipp have any crossguard-breaking moves?

Question. Does this apply to every move or are there exceptions?

Cuz I think projektiles, independent acting attacks are an exception. They will hit on 1st F.

[shinquickman]

Actually, Axl's 421P (the up counter) has 4f before it could counter, while the 623P counter (the projectile counter) has 3F before it could counter. By theory, you have about 1-2f where Axl is vulnerable when you attempt a crossup, that is of course if you land the crossup dead on a certain frame(pretty hard feat to do consistently). In other words, this is a risky thing for an Axl to be throwing out constantly, and if you're eating too many counters, you're mistiming the crossups badly/being predictable. Counters are also extremely susceptible to baits, whiffs and fakeouts, even more than most dps. And since we're talking about Chipp here, who's like THE best character at baiting attacks, those counters shouldn't be horribly problematic. Now that's not to say that Chipp is completely immune to Axl's counters. It's possible to get hit by a counter like once every 3-5 matches. But if we're looking at anything like getting caught more than 3 times in one round, then yeah, you gotta work on that matchup.

[Digital Watches]

Actually, Axl's 421P (the up counter) has 4f before it could counter, while the 623P counter (the projectile counter) has 3F before it could counter. By theory, you have about 1-2f where Axl is vulnerable when you attempt a crossup, that is of course if you land the crossup dead on a certain frame(pretty hard feat to do consistently).

Your figures are wrong, unfortunately, sir. 623P is open for business on frame 2. However, it's probably not a good wakeup option, since Chipp could just go for a real meaty, give up the crossup, and beat the counter.

In other words, this is a risky thing for an Axl to be throwing out constantly, and if you're eating too many counters, you're mistiming the crossups badly/being predictable.

Nah, it's true Axl can get it out in time to beat a crossup, but real meaties will beat it out.

Counters are also extremely susceptible to baits, whiffs and fakeouts, even more than most dps. And since we're talking about Chipp here, who's like THE best character at baiting attacks, those counters shouldn't be horribly problematic.

Now that's not to say that Chipp is completely immune to Axl's counters. It's possible to get hit by a counter like once every 3-5 matches. But if we're looking at anything like getting caught more than 3 times in one round, then yeah, you gotta work on that matchup.

Well, really what you've got to look out for is 2+ frame gaps in your pressure. If you get predictable, a counter could come out then, and it's basically the fastest thing Axl can do. However, I agree that it's a very weak option in general due to baiting and lows, and you really shouldn't be too worried about it.

ATG: I mean that there are certain moves that, if they knock down, cause the other character to get up backwards, which makes crossguard frames not happen (meaning meaty crossup games work.) A lot of the time, these moves are airthrows, but I think there are a few that aren't, like Badlands. I'm wondering what Chipp's is, if any.

Question. Does this apply to every move or are there exceptions?

Cuz I think projektiles, independent acting attacks are an exception. They will hit on 1st F.

Er... I think you're misunderstanding. It's not that moves won't hit during crossguard, (Actually, I'm not sure exactly how long crossguard property lasts. Can anyone confirm that it's only 1F?) it's just that you can block by holding forward, meaning that crossups won't work. As far as I know, projectiles are no exception.

[Beowulf]

A lot of the time, these moves are airthrows, but I think there are a few that aren't, like Badlands. I'm wondering what Chipp's is, if any.

Yeah, his Hara-kiri (air-throw) is one of them.

[Greed]

ATG: I mean that there are certain moves that, if they knock down, cause the other character to get up backwards, which makes crossguard frames not happen (meaning meaty crossup games work.) A lot of the time, these moves are airthrows, but I think there are a few that aren't, like Badlands. I'm wondering what Chipp's is, if any.

Chipp's got a few of them, but they're all setup/char speffic..and weird. :/

Like throwing and running across the opponent, or an airdash after throw, running 6k after knockdown, command throw in certain situations.. >_>

...actually, if I'm not understand what you're saying, then only air throw/command throw :P

[shinquickman]

Your figures are wrong, unfortunately, sir. 623P is open for business on frame 2. However, it's probably not a good wakeup option, since Chipp could just go for a real meaty, give up the crossup, and beat the counter.

Really, 2f? Oy, I have been misled this whole time.

I mean that there are certain moves that, if they knock down, cause the other character to get up backwards, which makes crossguard frames not happen (meaning meaty crossup games work.) A lot of the time, these moves are airthrows, but I think there are a few that aren't, like Badlands. I'm wondering what Chipp's is, if any.

Genrouzan(41236K),airgrab.

If you count moves that gets a knockdown and gets Chipp behind the opponent, thus making the opponent wake up backwards then:

Alpha Blade(236P, CH only), j. Alpha Blade(j.236P), FB(41236K>D), Super(632146H, FRCed or RCed on hit 1-4)

Usually the problem is that you usually land these moves in the corner during a combo, so you won't land behind the opponent, or you'll miss out on damage for a knockdown, OR you won't have enough time to start up the cross up oki.

[Xeno]

So if you are behind your opponent when they get up, they have to hold away from you you to block, which is "forward"? Or can they not block on their first vulnerable frame if their "forward" is also your "forward"? (hope that makes sense)

[Digital Watches]

So if you are behind your opponent when they get up, they have to hold away from you you to block, which is "forward"? Or can they not block on their first vulnerable frame if their "forward" is also your "forward"? (hope that makes sense)

Okay, I'll try to make this as clear as possible:

Obviously, you have to hold back (Away from the opponent) to block.

However, on wakeup, there's allegedly a small window (reports vary, I'm not sure how long it is, but VERY short) wherein you can block by holding forward OR backward, preventing meaty crossups.

Some moves, mostly airthrows, cause your character to stand up facing the wrong way (away from the opponent) briefly, which makes this window not happen, and thus allowing meaty crossups.

[AtTheGates]

lets stop the theory fighter for a moment and focus: i was specifically speaking about left / right oki, and in particular about the superjump FD back hit / FDC front hit oki. sorry if i did not explain myself properly. since this is a rather specific okizeme (the way it works, technicially, makes the timing very rigid), it might not even be possible to do a meaty variant on it on axl, at all. now that's me theory fighting anyway, still beware of the counter when you do crossup oki. even the running neutral jump stuff.

[Digital Watches]

Well, all I'm saying is, if you do a perfect meaty, trying to counter will just get Axl hit. If you're specifically trying to avoid a crossguard situation by delaying and avoiding doing it meaty, THEN you have to worry about the counter, but even then, it's basically guesswork on the part of the Axl, and safer just to try to block.

[shinquickman]

Actually there's an awkward thing a friend of mine does against Chipp's crossup oki w/ Axl. He would just wake up w/ 2K since Axl's in low stance on 2F, making me miss j.H, and then he grabs me as I land.

[Beowulf]

Time it later then. I often try to avoid jump attacks with 2+K, but it gets me killed really often, especially vs Chipp's j.HS (2 hits OMG !) and Sol's j.S (damn it covers my whole sprite ^^) as you get countered AND the other has time to combo your ass for huge damage ! But then again, if you fear the catch (not grab, eh ? ^^) don't time it too late neither.

[Digital Watches]

Actually there's an awkward thing a friend of mine does against Chipp's crossup oki w/ Axl. He would just wake up w/ 2K since Axl's in low stance on 2F, making me miss j.H, and then he grabs me as I land.

It's frame 3, not 2, but yeah, 2K makes good AA.

However, most characters have a move that'll hit low enough to beat it. Chipp's j.D and j.H will both do it if started late enough, I think.

[shinquickman]

Well, Chipp's j.H can beat low profile moves if he does it close to the ground... urgh there I go theory fighting again. Anyway, I'll stfu untill I get around to finding some helpful stuff vs. Axl.