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LM_Akira

Order-Sol vs. I-No

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Copy and paste from general matchup thread:

Okay Order-Sol players...

What's your opinion on the match up against I-No

What about her do you fear the most?

What weakness of hers do you find easiest/best to exploit?

General gameplan?

I find that randomly pressing 5K when I-no is rushing me down = dead I-no.

In general I think this match is in HOS's favor or possibly even. I-no can zone HOS but it's difficult for her and HOS has more ways around her rush/pressure.

The scariest thing about any I-no is gonna be the mixup and her huge damage off of a successful hit. While she doesn't hit as hard as she did in Slash, good I-no combos still hurt like a mother.

Her biggest weakness, again, IMO, is that it is really easy to interrupt her offense sometimes. Her ability to actually lock HOS down is weak.

General gameplan is to just wait for an opening to hit her out of her offensive setup and then start rushing her down. I try to respect her space a little initially so I don't eat a random j.HS or something similar that might knock me on my ass. My main goal is to let her create an opening for me to exploit so I can start my own game.

I dunno, it's been a long time since I've played a decent I-no, our local player pretty much dropped out of the scene.

I was actually going to start this matchup thread very soon as I've had the opportunity to play a great I-No player recently and I wanted to discuss it with other HOS players.

I was under this impression the match was considered 6-4 to HOS in the early days of AC but no idea what it's considered now.

The thing I fear about most is constantly watching for the mixup after knockdown:

Hoverdash j.K,

hoverdash whiff j.HS land throw,

hoverdash j.K land hoverdash j.K,

hoverdash land 2K,

hoverdash land 2K hoverdash j.K

etc...

It's funny, it's 50-50 to try and react to the high - low but one of our players said it's not even that because she can land and throw, so it's like 33.33-33.33-33.33 or 1 out of 3 in terms of guessing lol

This is without doubt the thing I hate about playing I-No the most. Even if you block the initial mixup, a good player can still mix you up afterwards and score damage.

Stuff like j.K can be timed so they're reversal safe. If I whiffed a reversal/wakeup SV I found myself getting air thrown and combo'd. So I fear the knockdown more than anything I guess, since that's where the main mixup game comes into it.

I find Note a pain too, since blocking it on the ground actually gives I-No an easier opportunity to mix you up. I try to avoid it by high jumps or double jumps or block it in the air. I remember seeing Kaqn doing this all the time so I figured he must be doing it for a reason.

I will search for some of my vids (and some old HOS-I-No matches) and see what more I can think of.

The thing I enjoy about fighting I-no is that I play Order-Sol. In other words I don't need tension for big damage.

That tension for me, a important tool to get I-no out of my face. FD pushes I-no out automatically. That's how I tend to deal with the mixups. Oddly I enjoy I-no rushing me down... I have to see what the I-no player is capable of.

My main AA tools are 5K at close range and 5HS mid range or SV. SV is what I use when I want some meter fast. It gets you out of my face and puts me a spot to gain charge. 5HS is great. Pretty much I-no's best way to beat that move is to either A)Block it or B)Air OD.

Personally regarding the note, I prefer to block it or go airborne.

Ground normals I use against I-no are 2S/5K/2P/2K/2D. And whatever you if do if you see HOS is the air, if he hasn't attacked yet DO NOT DO HCL/VCL unless he's far enough away you can't get hit. If you end up to close you'll just get SV or thrown.

The air: If I'm in the air I'm going for either:

A:Blocking/avoiding the note

B:Air throw or SV

C:Creating some space. Mainly jumping away. I don't want you in my face. If HOS jumps in on you, airthrow.

FDing HOS..well I just CC if that happens.

BMS, I remember you postin that HOS players tend to be overly aggressive. That's not really true. Don't think like that. That's assuming your opponents gameplan. Not all HOS players are like that. That's like assuming I-no will always do an VCL if she's in the air.

Something to note though, if the HOS you play doesn't FD your offense that's something you really have in your favor. I-no's strength is her mixups. You must use it's potential. High/low/throws/airthrows all of it.

Something I find really odd about I-no... sometimes if I do 5K to early, she'll do j.D and evade and punish my 5K....

I say the matchup is 5-5 or 5.5-4.5....

Weaknessess: HOS can't control space on the level I-no can. Both suffer from being FD but HOS can gain +Fs via CC in case that happens. I-no's mixups are high class but HOS can answer to a lot of her moves. Neither can be reckless in this fight. One KD is all either one of them needs to gain control. They are kinda alike in a sense.

Just wanted to point out I-No's amazing high/low/throw oki game. Similar to Millia and others, you can feasibly kill the opponent with 1 knockdown (granted it takes work and solid mixups). Example vids (not vs HOS):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcHrY2q_qT0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo2zBGaRE0w

I would say that she has almost no way to lock an HOS player down. The best is to just pin him down with notes. Especially with his fucked up hitbox that makes alot of bread and butter miss.

lol, funny thing. that's pretty much her gameplan against you. wait for you to give an opening.

I would say that the match is 5-5.

Yea, infact, 9 times out of 10 if I land in range, I'm going to go for a throw. The success rate is outstanding.

I'm going to tell you guys a secret, the worst thing you can do with a note is block it normally, the 2nd worst thing you can do is try to jump it. (including DJ and SJ) If you jump it, it's going to give I-No a free air throw. If you block it normally, then I-No is going to get damage off it no matter what she does. The best thing you can possibly do is A) go under it, B) fualtless defense block, or C) block it in air.

My execution was pretty shitty, so don't give me shit but the first match here really illustrates all my points about notes, as well as give examples of landing into a throw. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE9GhIZyh3o

SV = Free throw for I-No. Even if you're only using it for AA.

You're right about the assuming, I was just saying what it's been like from experence thus far.

FDing really works out in I-No's favor. Mixup isn't I-No's only tool and when you FD it makes it very easy for I-No to redash in and try something else.

Never heard of punishing 5K with j.D. I'll have to give that a shot. Is it a opening j.D or a falling j.D?

I agree, this is a catious fight for both sides.

Keep the discussion coming in! Love to hear more.

What's the best tool HOS has for wake up against a throw range I-No?

What sign do you guys use as a tool to know when to burst out of a combo?

6K as meaty is riskier then you'd think(low profile weakness), I'd go for 2H during okizeme.

well if ino is in throw range

unless she throws out a throw invincible move probably throw i-no since i have throw invincibility on wakeup

if she is throwing out the throw invincible moves ill probably just start backdashing

for the burst thing

i would probably burst if there wasn't a move that could easily bait it (EX would be moves with bad recovery like Heavys)

Blocking ino gets a lot easier after you've had some exposure to it. Basically it just becomes a game of "watch out or the low".

I don't see why you guys limit your selves to stuff like meaty 2p/5k so much. Even 6k is really easy to use in excess. Like 80% of the time I get a clean kd after I already have lv2, I use meaty js to start pressure. It's really the only way to establish a good guessing game hos has outside of "Am I going to throw you or not". I think in the same vein, because I rarely do it, my 6ks end up being more successful, although I am a lot more liable to throw it out when I have the tension for the ch combo >.>

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2GB Combo is easily the best OS player I've gone up against.

BMS (IN) vs 2GB Combo (OS) 01

BMS (IN) vs 2GB Combo (OS) 02

BMS (IN) vs 2GB Combo (OS) 03

Some of you OS players want to give me some tips? His corner mixup was a bit different than I was used to. I kept waiting for a throw opening and couldn't find one.

I think there is a lot I can learn about this matchup.

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Ok, I'll try: You lost to an OS that simply mashes 5K in every hole he gets, has an SV per game count that makes me a saint, that pulls more ODs in a single match than I do in a tournament and doesn't know his combos. So what I'm about to explain here pretty much is a summation of what weaknesses are associated with each move. First of all, SV is very famous for being punishable after blocking it. So fucking block it for gods sake; you nearly ate every single one he threw at you. Also when you get the S(f) on CH at least follow it up with a combo so he actually pays attention next time. Now his OD, you can block the first hit and you should be able to punish any following hits, I'm not an I-no player, but god, stop eating them at least. His 5K, good for high ground to ground and has the tendency to hit certain moves that other attacks OS has simply would not. That excludes low profile attacks, so sweep his ass if he spams those. Get your meaty game going and rape him. Now, his corner pressure, not mixup but pressure, is something among the lines of 2 ground normals and 1 or 2 air attacks. Your first response isn't going to be... mashing out like you tried, because that gives him free damage with that CH j.H flying around. Your first response is going to be: "what does OS require to maintain that loop?" And you then should start noticing that spacing is the key. He cannot keep going if he gets to far away or lands within your grabbing range. Doing so you would conclude that you either have to FD or have to IG at the right moments. I'll add that your and his defense is below standards. Your offense was easy for him to break through, simple reason is: you mash a full string, and you should be happy that the OS wasn't as clever to FD it or you'd have end up on the other side of the screen. Being close as you were despite him not responding properly, you set up the distance perfectly for a... SV and that's what this OS likes to do(rather than grabbing offense immediately). Now some other stuff not entirely related to this OS: don't dive at OS; if OS is the slightest bit awake he will respond with a GB immediately which will CH you which means you just gave 50% of your hp away. Also, when he charges and your note hits, rush that shit down, don't just let his stupidities slide, KILL HIM.

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- If you're in the corner, learn to IB. Especially things like j.HS. All those IAD j.HS and 5S© jc j.HS can be punished with at very least a throw if you IB. - SJ to escape his pressure. This forces HOS to commit to stopping your escape rather than trying to mix you up. Once he's forced to used tools like j.P spam to drag you back down, or dashing 5HS/air throw attempts, you can find better openings with which to counterpoke/escape his offense. - Definitely more reversal-safe oki. A deep j.K/j.S will suffice in baiting both reversal SV and GB. If you bait SV, punish with j.P into combo or, if you aren't worried about AC FRC/he has a penchant for doing SV AC, punish with 6HS. Bait reversal GB(Lvl1) and dash toward HOS, then punish. It's much riskier trying to punish a baited reversal Lvl2/3 GB, so I wouldn't bother. - Less HCL. HOS can dash under it. He can actually dash forward and 6P through it, hitting you, if he's close enough. Only HCL if you are within range to punish Manual Charge or ACs from further out.

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Ok, I'll try:

You lost to an OS that simply mashes 5K in every hole he gets, has an SV per game count that makes me a saint, that pulls more ODs in a single match than I do in a tournament and doesn't know his combos. So what I'm about to explain here pretty much is a summation of what weaknesses are associated with each move.

First of all, SV is very famous for being punishable after blocking it. So fucking block it for gods sake; you nearly ate every single one he threw at you. Also when you get the S(f) on CH at least follow it up with a combo so he actually pays attention next time.

Now his OD, you can block the first hit and you should be able to punish any following hits, I'm not an I-no player, but god, stop eating them at least.

His 5K, good for high ground to ground and has the tendency to hit certain moves that other attacks OS has simply would not. That excludes low profile attacks, so sweep his ass if he spams those. Get your meaty game going and rape him.

Now, his corner pressure, not mixup but pressure, is something among the lines of 2 ground normals and 1 or 2 air attacks. Your first response isn't going to be...

mashing out like you tried, because that gives him free damage with that CH j.H flying around. Your first response is going to be: "what does OS require to maintain that loop?" And you then should start noticing that spacing is the key. He cannot keep going if he gets to far away or lands within your grabbing range. Doing so you would conclude that you either have to FD or have to IG at the right moments. I'll add that your and his defense is below standards.

Your offense was easy for him to break through, simple reason is: you mash a full string, and you should be happy that the OS wasn't as clever to FD it or you'd have end up on the other side of the screen. Being close as you were despite him not responding properly, you set up the distance perfectly for a... SV and that's what this OS likes to do(rather than grabbing offense immediately).

Now some other stuff not entirely related to this OS: don't dive at OS; if OS is the slightest bit awake he will respond with a GB immediately which will CH you which means you just gave 50% of your hp away. Also, when he charges and your note hits, rush that shit down, don't just let his stupidities slide, KILL HIM.

LOL the only overdrives I ate were ones were I was caught in the middle of things. (IE meaty fast fall VCL lost to his OD on wake up)

I wasn't trying to mash out of his pressure, I was trying to use my ground overdrive (which believe it or not, is actually really difficult for me) and 2K/2S HCL. What the hell is IG?

@WUT What's AC? I don't know these terms.

I didn't really think about escaping, I was just hoping he'd offer something I could throw him out of. I typically go for textbook oki about 90% of the time but that day I was having huge execution issues and was getting pissed at my tk p-note coming out as a super jump jp so I was playing more risky and eating SV and other reversals (from others) all day. lol

Yea that little bit of random HCL was stupid. I watched that and keep asking myself "what the hell was I thinking?" Same thing with that random super, though I think I accidentally negative edge it some how.

Also, ReaVer do you have a suggestion for a (f) s ch combo? I'd love to hear it.

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AC = Action Charge, aka D after special moves to gain Charge. You'll mainly run into a potential punish for it after SV. IG = Impact Guard. Different name for Instant Block. It's all semantics. Answering constructively to your probable sarcastic remark to reaVer about a CH 5S(f) combo, 66 j.S into combo is the easiest follow-up. You shouldn't be so worried about trying to throw HOS out of his pressure. Windows like that are nigh inexistent if the HOS knows what keeps him safe and what doesn't. You're better off making opportunities for yourself via IB and backdashing if you want to try and go for a throw knockdown. Like I said, focus on escaping, as that is the option that leads to the least potential damage for you should HOS turn his attention to keeping you from jumping out.

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LOL the only overdrives I ate were ones were I was caught in the middle of things. (IE meaty fast fall VCL lost to his OD on wake up)

I wasn't trying to mash out of his pressure, I was trying to use my ground overdrive (which believe it or not, is actually really difficult for me)

i LOL'ed

and 2K/2S HCL. What the hell is IG?

Impact Guard/Instant Blocking/Just Defense

@WUT What's AC? I don't know these terms.

Action Charge where he's charging level after any special by pressing D

I didn't really think about escaping, I was just hoping he'd offer something I could throw him out of. I typically go for textbook oki about 90% of the time but that day I was having huge execution issues and was getting pissed at my tk p-note coming out as a super jump jp so I was playing more risky and eating SV and other reversals (from others) all day. lol

Yea that little bit of random HCL was stupid. I watched that and keep asking myself "what the hell was I thinking?" Same thing with that random super, though I think I accidentally negative edge it some how.

Also, ReaVer do you have a suggestion for a (f) s ch combo? I'd love to hear it.

i definitelly not an I-no Expert, but i think she can follow up with STBT> combos after counter hit SV or f.s(1hit)>2h(whiff)>hcl? ... err dunno :v:

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If you intend to win/improve you cannot be in the middle of things when your opponent, of which you should've known by then that he was mashing, mashes out an SV or OD. If he popped off just one or perhaps 2 in that best of 3, I might understand that you weren't prepared for it, but to repeatedly try and still catch you with your pants down simply doesn't bode well. Trying to interrupt like you did counts as mashing:P IG means Impact Guard and is commonly referred to as Instant Block and sometimes referred to as White Guard. This mashing I referred too was your first attempt to get out and it just shows you haven't put much thought into what was going on. AC means Action Charge, it's OS unique capability which he can execute after each of his special moves. If the opponent is waiting for it it's basically the same as waving out a "RAPE ME" sign. It has an FRC for safety though and gains OS 80% of 1 level of charge. You can always just guard on people's wakeup you know. You don't have to show them you're actually expecting a SV or other invincible from them. So now you see yourself and you're like "what the hell was I thinking?". If you want to avoid that, you really need to be able to explain every choice you make, including HCLing like that. Of course you keep those moments about "what they hell? that was dumb!" but at least from during a match perspective you can explain why it seemed like the right idea to you. Like I said, I'm no I-no player, but I figure that if 5S(f) is HCL cancellable you can work from the FRC. Otherwise just block it and punish him with a VCL or get him on his landing. Showing OS you you got a move that can fuck with his SV that only does 30 damage in total definitely won't scare him, especially considering that if the SV hits, you lose about 90 to 100 since he was spamming the l2 one which is CH state till landing.

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I'm fairly sure that 66 js after a far s is techable even on counter hit. I gave away my copy of the game (trying to get some one else into it) so I don't have a way to test for sure right now.

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You shouldn't be so worried about trying to throw HOS out of his pressure. Windows like that are nigh inexistent if the HOS knows what keeps him safe and what doesn't. You're better off making opportunities for yourself via IB and backdashing if you want to try and go for a throw knockdown. Like I said, focus on escaping, as that is the option that leads to the least potential damage for you should HOS turn his attention to keeping you from jumping out.

Though any good OS wouldn't pull that kind of pressure because he gets thrown out of it.

And I just saw I typed up half my post for no reason at all XD

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CH 5S(f) is untechable. And it's not special cancellable. There's just a 4F window that you can link an HCL after 5S(f) hits non-CH, and an even bigger window if you're close enough to link a 5K. reaVer: I wasn't referring to that particular brand of pressure, just a general strategy. Trying to escape HOS' pressure via IB, FD and jumping/backdash is much better than trying to counterpoke or simply waiting for a hole in his offense, as there most likely won't be a big window to do so.

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f.s is HCL cancelable but it has to be jump installed if you're going to FRC it into something. jump installing f.s is really tricky because it has a world difference in timing when compared to JIing her other stuff. excelence in AC f.s is only one hit. again I don't have a way to check at the moment but I'm about 99.99 percent sure STBT doesn't work on far slash counter hit. EDIT: (read the post above mine) okay I guess you can't cancel it but you still have to JI in order to airdash after the HCL FRC.

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I'm fairly sure that 66 js after a far s is techable even on counter hit.

I just tested for your own leisure, S(f) on CH is untechable and knocks down. S(f) cannot be cancelled but can easily be linked from so a sj.HCL shouldn't be a problem.

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Don't blow tension on a 5S(f) combo unless you need the kill; 50% forced prorate. On topic: If you bait Lvl2 TR, punish with 2HS between the hits. HOS should only be doing Lvl1 TR for reversal (if at all), but if they happen to do Lvl2/3 you can respond accordingly.

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sweet! that is a great tip. I love using 2H too, kind of hard to find a place to use it as an opener though. thanks. 50% forced prorate isn't that bad. You can still probably get 125 damage out of it. Throw combos have 40% forced prorate and I'm always managing to pull near 150 with them.

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