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[P4AU] News & Gameplay Discussion

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Hard to encourage you to do air combos when you have no air combos to begin with. All of Sho's air combos are crappy, 4 hits stuff that is height specific, and none of the changes imply any real changes to that. Meanwhile, the 5B nerf together with losing 5B>5C>5B makes our ground combos a lot less consistent and sweep probably won't combo anymore, which screws over our average damage badly. Meanwhile Moon Smasher's damage nerf screws over our burst.

 

Honestly, these changes aren't 'fair' at all. The buffs simply don't make up for losing such large amounts of consistency in our gameplay.

 

All of this is based on your knowledge of 1.1, which may or may not apply anymore in 2.0, and incomplete knowledge of 2.0 Sho. Like, how can you even say average damage is down when you don't even know what Sho's 2.0 optimal combos are going to be? We don't know all the new changes. Location tests are not an environment to thoroughly test things. It's very easy to find the stuff that no longer works but it requires time and experimentation to find new properties on moves and new/alternative combo routes. When 2.0 releases in 2 weeks, you'll get a much better understanding of what Sho is capable of in terms of combos. There's really no need to jump to conclusions like you're doing right now. 

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With the lower survival knife being a low now and opening up the possibility to find unblockable setups, it might get even better. 

 

That'd be interesting, even though I can't picture being able to do anything after a survival knife quick enough that an opponent can't evade.

 

Is this their way of telling us to play Minazuki.

 

Please don't do this Arcsys.

 

As for the actual changes, even though I've only had the game for about 2 weeks, these Sho changes don't annoy me that much. 

Only things that get on my nerves are j.B hitbox nerf which doesn't bother me too much, and no longer being able to follow A or B Blazing Moon Barrage in the corner.

 

I'm still upset by hearing that Elizabeth isn't really getting any good buffs, and still receiving nerfs. 

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All of this is based on your knowledge of 1.1, which may or may not apply anymore in 2.0, and incomplete knowledge of 2.0 Sho. Like, how can you even say average damage is down when you don't even know what Sho's 2.0 optimal combos are going to be? We don't know all the new changes. Location tests are not an environment to thoroughly test things. It's very easy to find the stuff that no longer works but it requires time and experimentation to find new properties on moves and new/alternative combo routes. When 2.0 releases in 2 weeks, you'll get a much better understanding of what Sho is capable of in terms of combos. There's really no need to jump to conclusions like you're doing right now. 

Well.

 

Yeah.

 

I mean, EVERYTHING of this nature before release is a bunch of assumptions. We go "Oh no, this doesn't work anymore." or "So new X means we get Y combo route right?" because we're all basing it off the current version of the character, with the listed changes as what differs the current to the new version. I have the right to think my character is in a bad situation when listed changes would hurt his current version. Sure things might change, but it's also possible they don't, and thus we have to work with whatever knowledge is listed to us at the time.

 

I will admit you're right in the sense that I'm probably reacting more than I should, mainly because it's more of a 'I was out for a while and I come back to this?' thing. That being said, I don't really trust ASW's balancing enough to stay optimistic when my character is showing signs of eating a nerf bat.

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Well.

 

Yeah.

 

I mean, EVERYTHING of this nature before release is a bunch of assumptions. We go "Oh no, this doesn't work anymore." or "So new X means we get Y combo route right?" because we're all basing it off the current version of the character, with the listed changes as what differs the current to the new version. I have the right to think my character is in a bad situation when listed changes would hurt his current version. Sure things might change, but it's also possible they don't, and thus we have to work with whatever knowledge is listed to us at the time.

 

 

Eh, that's not really how it goes. Taking your examples of "Oh no, this doesn't work anymore." or  "So new X means we get Y combo route right?". You aren't going to see people conclude that X leads to a specific combo route or this combo route no longer works unless news from the location test specifically said so. Half of this is because reports from location tests are vague and don't give enough accurate detail to make any judgement calls. The other half is really just that there's no way of knowing if it still works unless someone tries it and confirms/denies it. The only time you're really going to see something like you said is things not working anymore because a gatling or property needed by the combo disappears. 

 

To be honest, I don't think you have the right to think your character is in a bad situation because this implies that I think it's okay to come to definitive conclusions based on mostly incomplete information, which isn't really okay at all. At least not in my books. It's much more reasonable to expect people to have a wait and see perspective when so much vital information is missing to make an accurate conclusion. 

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I guess we're gonna have to agree to disagree in our views of this. I personally believe I can make assumptions given limited information so long as I'm aware other things could have been changed but aren't listed. As much as having a complete list of all changes is the best possible outcome, that is pretty much impossible before release. I accept that it's possible things will change once the game is out, but until there I'm working with what is listed, and the things that are listed don't sound all that good.

 

I do respect your view of it as well, and I guess that in the least, we can agree that we're only going to get a definite answer once the game is out and people start experimenting.

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I don't play Sho, but here's some comments from Twitter quickly translated...
 
- Moving distance of 5B reduced
- No more forced knockdown when you hit 5B's second hit to an aerial opponent - they just stay afloat.
- Fatal Recovery removed from 2C
- 5B>5C>5B gatling route removed
- If your combo gets too long, the opponent can tech out from Destructive Fang in midair.
- Moon Smasher damage seems to have been nerfed. On counter hit, the opponent flies to a different direction - You can't follow with OMB
- Amount of hits B Rising Fang deals has been reduced
- Amount of hits Blazing deals has been reduced
- Can't follow A or B Blazing near the corner even on Counter Hit
- j.B hittbox is now smaller from below Sho. j.B>j.C loop is impossible.
- A Rising > jump cancel > A Rising A doesn't work
- A Rising > jump cancel > j.B > Aerial B Rising > A Destructive works
- Aerial D High-Speed has faster start-up
- Aerial C High-Speed now moves more diagonally.
- Aerial High-Speed cancel > Aerial SB Rising doesn't seem to work. High-Speed cancel > SB Destructive works

 

Thank you so much Sourenga!

 

After looking at this I don't feel too worried about the changes. They're really all things I'd expect them to change, like removing the sword loop unfortunately :(. Besides, we got more nice stuff to look forward to. We have low knives, air combo finishers, possibly a better air dash, dodge follow-ups, and I recall AoA's were safer right (even though Sho's is almost painfully obvious to block most of the time, and he almost had no good way to finish them). All in all, they did it right in my eyes. I just hope that they didn't buff the shit out of Minazuki because I'm not switching any time soon if that's what they want.

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People freaking out about Minazuki buffs when we all know the only top tier that will likely actually be buffed in the final patch is going to be Narukami.

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Okay class, let's go over a few buffs that essentially want to make us throw up:

 

-Increasing Ken's DP, shortening recovery time

-Allowing Labrys to gain Red Axe status even easier than before now

-Yukiko no longer able to do unblockable reset from 5AAA anymore (oh wait--this isn't a buff)

-Liz with that weird-ass super of hers that nobody has figured out yet all (but I bet it's gonna be super godlike)

-Yu Narukami himself. He is the whole buff there is literally nothing else.

 

THINGS WE CAN SAY BYE TO:

-YOSUKE GLIDE

-AOA MASH

-SPIN STATE RECOVERY (I personally want this, but...)

-THE APPARENT INSIGNIFICANCE OF SHADOW CHARACTERS (Pretty totally sure S.Aigis just went up like, 4 fucking ranks with burst alone HOLLA)

-WHATEVER THE FUCK THEY DID TO AKIHIKO

 

SEE Y'ALL IN LIKE 13 DAYS

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Ken's DP got nerfed lol, it's faster startup and recovery but it's still hella punishable regardless and now he can't combo off it on hit. Not to mention Ken in general sorta looked like shit in the last loketest because they gave 2C recovery on block, meaning he can basically only use Koro once per blockstring and everything else after that is pretty much free to reversals.

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Ken's DP got nerfed lol, it's faster startup and recovery but it's still hella punishable regardless and now he can't combo off it on hit. Not to mention Ken in general sorta looked like shit in the last loketest because they gave 2C recovery on block, meaning he can basically only use Koro once per blockstring and everything else after that is pretty much free to reversals.

 

THINGS WE CAN SAY BYE TO:

 

-WHATEVER THE FUCK THEY DID TO AKIHIKO

-WHATEVER THE FUCK THEY DID TO KEN

 

SEE Y'ALL IN LIKE 13 DAYS

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Once Shadow Aigis gains her burst, I'm playing that character when the update becomes available to console lol. In the mean time, I'm fine with regular Aigis

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Would anyone happen to have translated notes of the changes for Kanji? All I keep finding are Japanese notes and Google Translate hasn't been very helpful for me.

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Shadow Junpei might be slipping by a few radars as well. Junpei is already getting quite a few buffs from what we've seen, and S. Junpei's new ability to extend any combo string with an unburstable Frenzy could mean being able to very quickly get Victory Cry. Don't think he's going to be top by any means, but he should jump a few places from bottom.

 

On the other hand Shadow Kanji losing spin state resets is going to hurt that guy even more.

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Would anyone happen to have translated notes of the changes for Kanji?

Here you go. Gathered some stuff from here and quickly translated them.
 
KANJI
 
SB Added Cruel Attack can be OMC'd & Super Canceled
j.C faster start-up, landing recovery decreased
5C has now longer reach, its hitbox is horizontally longer
Auto Combo more difficult to combo into Bet Ya Cant Take This (j.214AB), but SB version still works
5B  and charged 5B connect to 2B on hit
j.C 
          * Rising j.C works
          * Fatal Counter & Fatal Recovery both removed
          * Causes crumbling on counter hit
Increased range, slower start--up on his Throw
All-out Attack 
             * Whether it's Kanji-only or just a bug is unclear, but he's able to cancel All-out Attack with Skills.
             * -4 or less on block (Akihiko's 5A couldn't punish it)
This'll Hurt
          * SB version damage nerfed. 
          * Overall damage nerf. SB now deals same damage as C version used to. Order is C < SB < D
          * Fatal Recovery removed from D version
Primal Force 
     C-version
             *A lot faster start-up
             *No bounce even on counter hit
             *Can pass through the opponent if used close by
             *Takemikazuchi disappears faster on hit and on block
    D-version
            *A lot more slower start-up
            *Takemikazuchi appears, waits a moment then starts to attack. Kanji becomes able to move when Takemikazuchi starts to move.
            *Could be used for okizeme. Doesn't seem to work as a combo part
             *Bounce on counter hit
   SB-version 
            *Unblockable, bounce on hit
 
 
EDIT: I'm bored, so here's more stuff about other characters... All from that same wiki...
 
YU
Skills kill combo damage even more
5C: Nerfed as a combo starter
5D: Deals 2 hits after OMB
j.C Better combo starter
j.2B Comes out with the command j.1B & j.3B. Hitbox nerfed and cross-up won't work
Throw: Wallbounce in corner removed. Damage increased
Air Throw: Damage nerferd, but is a better combo starter. Can't be followed with j.2B
Lion B-version: After the Faint, moves slower in the air. Landing recovery added. Same attack property.  Fatal Recovery (even after faint)
Lion SB-version: Fatal Recovery
Zio: D-version super fast projectile. Fatal Counter removed. 
ZIo: SB-version. Looks like the old D-version. Faster start-up than the old D-version. Not chargeable. Fatal Counter
Aerial Zio: Midair stop increased. Bullet speed same as the ground version. Still no landing recovery...
Heroic Bravery: SB is now the old A-version. Faster start-up and longer distance. Can be cancelled really quickly.
Swift Strike: Fatal Recovery removed. Furious Action follow-up has less untechable time.
Lightining Flash: Fatal Recovery remvoed.
Cross Slash: Fatal Recovery added.
Thunder God Dance: Minimum damage nerfed (3240 > 2860)

 

YOSUKE

Glide removed
5A hitbox nerfed. Doesn't work as anti-air
Auto Combo: SP and Burst comes from Kunai
5B: More disadvantageous on block(?)
j.A hitbox nerfed.
j.C hitstop removed? Deals 4 hits. 5C>iad>j.C doesn't work in corner -> Attack Level decreased?
Furious Action: Opponent can recover more faster. Hitbox nerfer from above. Active frames decreased. 
Dash Spring: A-Dash > SB Crescent Slash doesn't work
5AA>5C>2C>SB-Spring works. Unknown how it's now possible.
Moonsault: Landing recovery increased. B-version rises higher.
Flying Flash Cut: Untechable time decreased
Tentarafoo: Fatal Counter. Fatal Recover removed. D-version: Faster start-up, distance decreased
 
MINAZUKI
5C > Sweep removed
Forced knockdown removed, groundbounce added
5D recovery decreased (All D attacks seem to have decreased recoveries)
5D > Sweep removed
j.B downward hitbox smaller. Untechable time decreased
j.C & j.D recovery decreased
Furious Action: Ground version can be teched in air. Aerial version slams opponent opponent more diagonally away. Increased landing recovery.
B Survival Knife is a low
Soaring Fang: A-version has shorter time to input Destructive. B-version cancels into Destructive faster
Destructive: B-version hitbox changed, Minazuki now "sinks into the opponent". Can be followed from when comboing an aerial opponent. Advantageous on block.
SB: Following with 2A is easier, is fact you can now pick up with 5B
Wings of Purgatory: Kills combo damage if you try to follow from it.
Moon Smasher: Damage nerfed, Fatal Recovery
Dream Fog: C & SB superflash comes after the opponent successfully lands a hit to it. D-version is a strike move

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I have so many words about all this but if 

 

 SB-version 
            *Unblockable, bounce on hit
this is true oh my god we have a game changer. The stupid gimmicks are piling up in my head now. Still the damage nerf on my grabs it. it hurts. alot. I can only hope their not to bad or else I might have to start taking all my matches more seriously.

 

 

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Those are some rather... interesting changes for Kanji there. Are these all of the changes or just part of it? Somewhat salty about Arcsys nerfing Kanji's grabs' damage and taking away yet another one of his fatal starters but I guess we'll just see if it holds up on release. 

 

Also what was that about changes with the spin state? I'm not really getting it but I feel like it's gonna be bad for Kanji.

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Those are some rather... interesting changes for Kanji there. Are these all of the changes or just part of it? Somewhat salty about Arcsys nerfing Kanji's grabs' damage and taking away yet another one of his fatal starters but I guess we'll just see if it holds up on release.

Also what was that about changes with the spin state? I'm not really getting it but I feel like it's gonna be bad for Kanji.

Aside from a very bold attempt of Chair Super>OMC>Delay a normal command grab for a reset, Kanji really doesn't care about this change. If you're worried about the full 150 combo it still works, don't worry.

On the previous page Elochai explained perfectly what spinstate is so check it out.

I just wish they don't go too crazy with Kanji. Removing FC JC looks bad and I dont know about nerfing his grabs. However I'm very happy with his primal force changes and him having less Fatal Recovery moves. Let's see if he can become a better character.

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Is there a detailed list of Akihiko changes anywhere?

If not consider this a humble request for a translation.

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Just gonna give my thoughts because why not.

tl;dr version: I still play this game for some reason.

 

Yu

"Skills kill combo damage even more"
Yes please. His damage was good but not Minazuki good. Though I have a feeling there will be some normal string loops.
 
"Throw: Wallbounce in corner removed. Damage increased"
If this still causes knockdown, it's not too painful I suppose. I think throws can be Super cancelled now so he can do that as well.
 
"Lion B-version: After the Faint, moves slower in the air. Landing recovery added. Same attack property.  Fatal Recovery (even after faint)
Lion SB-version: Fatal Recovery"
Kind of weird in a way. I suppose this slows down some of his air and ground options. Depends on how much recovery was added to tell if it's unsafe to use. Now that it has fatal recovery, I hope that it quells the "Full Screen Lion B" Brigade. Actually, are these for both air and ground versions?

 

"Cross Slash: Fatal Recovery added."

This is pretty cool. Though I'm not sure how many people can punish it aside from Mitsuru and maybe Margaret. When I do 5A with Mitsuru, it's still not a counter hit.

 

YOSUKE

"Glide removed"
Happy Day for everyone who had to suffer through this. Though, it made the match-up interesting in my opinion.
 
"5A hitbox nerfed. Doesn't work as anti-air"
I wonder how nerfed the hitbox is. The horizontal is still pretty good for a quick 5A.
 
"Furious Action: Opponent can recover more faster. Hitbox nerfer from above. Active frames decreased."
This will make the match up infinitely less annoying (though I'm sure it will be used moderately). There's also the air option if Yosuke can't actually catch air hits at all.
 
"Tentarafoo: Fatal Counter. Fatal Recover removed. D-version: Faster start-up, distance decreased"
This is perhaps the weirdest change for me. Giving it FC doesn't seem to do anything imo. It's unblockable anyways, so the person either didn't block and if they mashed, they'll just break the persona. But perhaps its for one of those weird corner cases where Kanji does a DP followed by an IK and you roll but you miss time your follow-up punish and the Kanji read that so he does DP again and then you time it right to get the Tentarafoo to land.
 
MINAZUKI

"j.B downward hitbox smaller. Untechable time decreased"

This move was pretty good. The range was really good for a j.B which could lead into a sweet combo. I suppose I can see the need to nerf it's air-to-ground capabilities.

 
"Furious Action: Ground version can be teched in air. Aerial version slams opponent opponent more diagonally away. Increased landing recovery."
One of those Mitsuru cases. Does DP, they forward tech in the air and place you back in a weird situation.
 
"B Survival Knife is a low"
Curious if the SB special of this considers the B knife low. Could be interesting with 236C.

"Wings of Purgatory: Kills combo damage if you try to follow from it."
Oh boy, does this kill Minazuki's damage? This was part of the reason he was so good, dat damage. I suppose now it will be used similar to Mitsuru's Bufudyne.
 
Kanji
 
"j.C faster start-up, landing recovery decreased
          * Rising j.C works
          * Fatal Counter & Fatal Recovery both removed
          * Causes crumbling on counter hit"
This sounds pretty good in my opinion. Since they nerfed his landing recovery awhile back, it became easier to punish him. Now he can toss out j.Cs more regularly (though he'll still get destroyed if he tosses them out haphazardly). It also crumbles on CH so you still get a good combo off it, probably.
 
"This'll Hurt
          * SB version damage nerfed. 
          * Overall damage nerf. SB now deals same damage as C version used to. Order is C < SB < D
          * Fatal Recovery removed from D version"
I hope with this they decided to improve his damage outside of his grabs then. Could make for some interesting gameplay. Also no longer being Fatal Recovery is good.
"Primal Force 
     C-version
             *A lot faster start-up
             *No bounce even on counter hit
             *Can pass through the opponent if used close by
             *Takemikazuchi disappears faster on hit and on block
    D-version
            *A lot more slower start-up
            *Takemikazuchi appears, waits a moment then starts to attack. Kanji becomes able to move when Takemikazuchi starts to move.
            *Could be used for okizeme. Doesn't seem to work as a combo part
             *Bounce on counter hit
   SB-version 
            *Unblockable, bounce on hit"
Ah, they appear to have made this thing a bit better. The persona leaving faster on block is essential since people could break it if the Kanji player wasn't quick enough. This will probably improve Kanji's match-ups against zoners. Not sure how I feel about the unblockable because it doesn't do enough.

 

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Kanji

 
"j.C faster start-up, landing recovery decreased
          * Rising j.C works
          * Fatal Counter & Fatal Recovery both removed
          * Causes crumbling on counter hit"
This sounds pretty good in my opinion. Since they nerfed his landing recovery awhile back, it became easier to punish him. Now he can toss out j.Cs more regularly (though he'll still get destroyed if he tosses them out haphazardly). It also crumbles on CH so you still get a good combo off it, probably.
 
"This'll Hurt
          * SB version damage nerfed. 
          * Overall damage nerf. SB now deals same damage as C version used to. Order is C < SB < D
          * Fatal Recovery removed from D version"
I hope with this they decided to improve his damage outside of his grabs then. Could make for some interesting gameplay. Also no longer being Fatal Recovery is good.
"Primal Force 
     C-version
             *A lot faster start-up
             *No bounce even on counter hit
             *Can pass through the opponent if used close by
             *Takemikazuchi disappears faster on hit and on block
    D-version
            *A lot more slower start-up
            *Takemikazuchi appears, waits a moment then starts to attack. Kanji becomes able to move when Takemikazuchi starts to move.
            *Could be used for okizeme. Doesn't seem to work as a combo part
             *Bounce on counter hit
   SB-version 
            *Unblockable, bounce on hit"
Ah, they appear to have made this thing a bit better. The persona leaving faster on block is essential since people could break it if the Kanji player wasn't quick enough. This will probably improve Kanji's match-ups against zoners. Not sure how I feel about the unblockable because it doesn't do enough.

 

The only thing I'm kinda sour about is the nerf to SB "This'll Hurt" but it already has ridiculously low startup and invul frames so I GUESS I can live with it.

 

Other than that, these definitely seem like they could help out his game. It'll be interesting to see what people come up with in regards to the Primal Force changes.

 

Like you said, the delay on the D version does look like it could be useful as another form of oki to make us a bit less predictable and if SB version is truly unblockable (and guessing it comes out around the same speed as now) could be very useful for getting in on not just zoners but cast members who typically just have better neutrals and pokes.

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YOSUKE

"Glide removed"
Happy Day for everyone who had to suffer through this. Though, it made the match-up interesting in my opinion.
 
"5A hitbox nerfed. Doesn't work as anti-air"
I wonder how nerfed the hitbox is. The horizontal is still pretty good for a quick 5A.
 
"Furious Action: Opponent can recover more faster. Hitbox nerfer from above. Active frames decreased."
This will make the match up infinitely less annoying (though I'm sure it will be used moderately). There's also the air option if Yosuke can't actually catch air hits at all.
 
"Tentarafoo: Fatal Counter. Fatal Recover removed. D-version: Faster start-up, distance decreased"
This is perhaps the weirdest change for me. Giving it FC doesn't seem to do anything imo. It's unblockable anyways, so the person either didn't block and if they mashed, they'll just break the persona. But perhaps its for one of those weird corner cases where Kanji does a DP followed by an IK and you roll but you miss time your follow-up punish and the Kanji read that so he does DP again and then you time it right to get the Tentarafoo to land.
 

 

 

5A nerfed? Fuck this game.

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