[P4AU] News & Gameplay Discussion

[ThatHiroGuy]

I keep saying these things over and over again in hopes that one day I will not have to say them ;w;

The point is less that new chars suck, and more that using education to explore a character early and find worth is really important. That's what we base the speculation on. Like, not that they're bad, but we can identify what's actually strong vs actually weak relatively quickly if we're intelligent about it. In some cases it's really obvious (day one Kokonoe we saw buttons, combo rate, black hole all miles ahead of the cast) in some it's more subtle (things like OSes beating Marie's stuff and button MU issues) for what it's worth.

Edit: Btw, literally day one myself and a few other people said Adachi appeared strong. By the end of the first week with him we thought he was a high-mid range character and it still holds up! Most of our educated guess were pretty right. Forums are great for information, but remember literally ANYBODY can sign up and say ANYTHING, so make sure you listen to those who are worth listening to. This is why I'm actually pretty strict and boo hoo about information sometimes, I don't want a new player to believe something that sounded smart but was actually written by somebody who had no fucking idea what they were talking about.

 

Yeah, no doubt. I'm all for character conversation. If there's anything I hate, it's when people accuse me of 'whining' because I'm offering opinions. Agreed on other points too.

[Buttface]

I too, think that Marie is a bit weaker than we expected before. Her setups are not that good: chocolate is not that good, you can dodge it easily and it does not have super oki, cloud is the best one I think, awesome air control with that, but the startup is incredibly long with both of them, you can't use that like Rachel's frog or Koko's 22B. Blackhole is good but it only works in the corner and sometimes in midscreen to destroy proyectiles. And her normals looked good at first but they are problems that are being discovered, her anti-air for example doesn't have air invulnerability (that makes many trades/clashes from that), her j5C is not God either. She's not bad, but she's not top material for me, Yu, Yosuke, Aigis, Minazuki, Akihiko, all of them have many tools or something that makes them really really good, and all of them has equal or more damage than Marie, hell even Yukari can land 4k from a 5A and she's mid (I think). Marie indeed needs more work, it is only week 1-2 after all.

both her presents get better when the SB versions are used

SB chocolate autocorrects for crossups and SB clouds shock on block

 

I'm pretty sure her 2B has a bit of head invuln, just very little. Even so, with its range it usually doesn't matter 

 

j.C is great, but not to be spammed on approach because of how easy it is to 2B or DP

 

She definitely needs more exploration, and I try to find more with her every day, but she's definitely a pretty strong character

[Ragnarok_F4]

both her presents get better when the SB versions are used

SB chocolate autocorrects for crossups and SB clouds shock on block

 

I'm pretty sure her 2B has a bit of head invuln, just very little. Even so, with its range it usually doesn't matter 

 

j.C is great, but not to be spammed on approach because of how easy it is to 2B or DP

 

She definitely needs more exploration, and I try to find more with her every day, but she's definitely a pretty strong character

 

Indeed. But now you are using bar, she needs to manage that well (damage or setups). For me, right now she's strong, but not as strong as the top 5 chars. She definitely needs more work.

 

Yukari is high A btw

 

Ok, thanks for the correction.

[Zephyrion22]

On the topic of Adachi and Marie, Adachi is definitely very strong, but I would also say that Marie, while she is definitely not top tier material, is not so weak as to end up on the other end of a tier list.

-Her pressure, while lacking,  can still mess you up (2B/5A being jcable, her hop cancel game that is well complimented by the horizontal range of her jB, OMC gimmicks and so on).

Her neutral is actually decent to me , even if not quite conventional : 5C and 2C, even if they are persona attacks (read breakable and a bit risky), can beat more buttons than they look they should, and can be converted into actual damage (3k meterless from them).

5B in neutral , while it's not godlike or perfect, is still very useful, especially  once you're able to distinguish whether the opponent will block (in which case 214A~D cancel is of use) or be hit (in which case you have at least 2.5k + semi-safe okizeme.

Finally her corner okizeme is definitely nothing to laugh at : her ability to get you out of the corner while safe jumping, or setting specific okizeme  (214C activating automatically after a set time is more useful than it might look it is, if you manage your options well and know what to do from the additional blockstun)

 

So yes all of this doesn't amount to much when you look at her and compare her with the better characters of the game, but all of this is still there. When looking at her tools, I see the potential of a mid tier : she has nothing really flashy or noticeable, but she can deal with most of the situations, and has options to counter every playstyle

 

Well this is all week 1 impressions so I might be completely wrong. But while I don't find her as strong as Adachi or Ken, I can't find enough flaws that would send her in the other end of the tier list for the moment

[Anne]

The flaw is she's remarkably average and honest in a game where almost any character can send you hurtling into the sun because they felt like it.

[Justice7541]

I respect your impressions and all, but the article you wrote is really suspect.

 

By the way you put things, it sounds like every DLC character starts out weak and unfortunate in their first week of being released, as if there's a godlike player who has mastered her already. Adachi went through the same thing, and now suddenly people are claiming him to be really good now. If you really want to get a solid impression from them I would say wait for a least a month after you learned their mechanics, tools, strengths, and weaknesses--ALL of them. For the record, I have no plans to main Marie whatsoever, but I don't believe she's as weak as you think. You just need a lot more time before rating her.

 

On another note, it does seem as though most players are lost with certain characters until JP players discuss them and chart them on tier lists, running with that until the end. That's really sad.

 

Also, get ready for Margaret in 6 days along with some Persona 4 Animation dlc music 

 

Adachi has meterless Ziodyne and unblockable rage resets, I don't think anyone really ever thought he was THAT weak.  If anything the one week one character that everyone was pegging as trash in the respective subforum was RIse and ultimately I think she turned out to be pretty good.

[ThatHiroGuy]

I just can't wait to see the opinions on Margaret in the first week. While she looks incredible, its really up in the air. Looking at a few of the things she can do makes her look all powerful, but then you remember how crazy Liz looks, and how people actually feel about her haha.

[TotheFace]

Can't play vs. players using US version (probably because of version updates). I guess there's an option in the US version to change versions, but its not present in the japanese version (at least not yet). Couldn't get games in with a friend of mine, lol. 

[Diveman]

now that you guys mentioned Yukari. Lack of AA is what's preventing her from being really really good imo. Some people put her on A some other B, I do think she's fairly strong and has good things going for her. But in some matches she gets completely shit'd on (like minazuki)

[Justice7541]

Yukiko doesn't have AA either but she does just fine.  She does ridiculous damage with her unblockable though so I guess that makes up for it.

[D.R.F.]

Yukiko doesn't have AA either but she does just fine. She does ridiculous damage with her unblockable though so I guess that makes up for it.

Yukari you mean. And yea she can get damage through a lot of random stuff. She is just super solid. As an learning yukari player she hard:0 so you are going to have to get used to blocking though because she has poor defensive options

[AchedSphinx]

What do you guys consider anti-air? Air-unblockables? If so, I can see that being the case. Otherwise, Yukari can control the air really well, and her damage is pretty solid. Her flaw, of course, is that she's a zoner, so she's weak close-to-Mitsuru range. So characters like Minazuki, Mitsuru, Sho, etc give her trouble because she can't do anything aside from DP and roll if they're outside of her range. However, they still have to get in, so I think that balances out such match-ups.

 

Though I suppose they could make her AA even better if they gave her a 6B similar to Nu's 6D. Either way, Yukari's a great character in my opinion.

[D.R.F.]

What do you guys consider anti-air? Air-unblockables? If so, I can see that being the case. Otherwise, Yukari can control the air really well, and her damage is pretty solid. Her flaw, of course, is that she's a zoner, so she's weak close-to-Mitsuru range. So characters like Minazuki, Mitsuru, Sho, etc give her trouble because she can't do anything aside from DP and roll if they're outside of her range. However, they still have to get in, so I think that balances out such match-ups.

Though I suppose they could make her AA even better if they gave her a 6B similar to Nu's 6D. Either way, Yukari's a great character in my opinion.

Not just air-unblockable, (although it helps plenty) most of the time an AA is a move that deals with people in the air. These moves usually have fast startup to beat slow normals (Ragna 5A), head invulnerable frames so fat normals can't hit the character if spaced improperly (labrys j.B for example just whiffs by narukami 2B deep in if it hits narukami on his invul frames), moves the characters hurtbox down or away from the opponent's attack (sol 5K, a lot of sf AA), have a giant upwards hitbox (or hitboxes, stuff like sho's nonesense lol, aigis 2B) or a combination of these attributes (dps, sol 5K etc.).

The problem with yukari's 2B is that it doesn't do any of these things well. It's slow, so you can't 2B on reaction. It's also not air-unblockable without bomb, so they can return to the ground and you may at risk to play defense. It's hitbox is decent, but not AA status when connected to it's startup. And lastly, its recovery is baaaaad on whiff, so if you miss, yea. Honestly you will be better off J.Aing or jump throw to using yukari's 2B

I hope it wasn't to wierd to read

[AchedSphinx]

Actually, I meant head-invul, when I was referring to air-unblockables. Mistake on my part. For some reason, whenever I think of anti-air, I think of controlling the air, and not necessarily having a solid head-invul move. Since Yukari has things like j.B, 2B, garu, etc to control air game.

 

At any rate, since this is becoming too Yukari related, and only fits this thread 50%, I'll stop here so I don't derail the thread more so than I already have.

[Justice7541]

Yukari you mean. And yea she can get damage through a lot of random stuff. She is just super solid. As an learning yukari player she hard:0 so you are going to have to get used to blocking though because she has poor defensive options

No, I mean Yukiko. Her 2B fan works similar to Yukari's (except it covers a better angle). She doesn't have very good options to counter stuff like Minazuki teleport overhead as a result.

On the other hand she still zones most people pretty well and once she hits them with Fire Break active that's usually worth at least half of their bar if not more.

[Balguna]

It can be tricky to define an anti-air. Aigis' 2B, for instance, is a very solid tool for controlling the air despite it being blockable and no head invul.

 

On the flipside, I have difficulty using Teddie's 2B as an anti-air against characters such as Yosuke because of its angle of attack, despite having everything normally associated with an anti-air. 2C has no head invul or air unblockability, but its sheer range tends to give it more use as a defensive anti-air.

 

I'd probably consider there to be two kinds: offensive ones or defensive ones. Mitsuru's Bufuydne would likely fit into both.

[Orrax]

All anti-air means is that you're using something to hit people in the air. Certain properties make moves better anti-airs than others (speed, hit box, head invulnerability, etc.), but it's not the properties of the move that make it an "anti-air" -- it's how the move is being used (that is, to beat people in the air) that defines it as "anti-air."

[Anne]

No, I mean Yukiko. Her 2B fan works similar to Yukari's (except it covers a better angle). She doesn't have very good options to counter stuff like Minazuki teleport overhead as a result.

On the other hand she still zones most people pretty well and once she hits them with Fire Break active that's usually worth at least half of their bar if not more.

Too bad Yukiko might not be viable anyways for other reasons :V

No need to overthink it guys, an anti-air is something you hit to knock people out of the air. You AA with a lot of shit, hell try it with 5A sometime. Some are just better than others.

[D.R.F.]

Too bad Yukiko might not be viable anyways for other reasons :V

No need to overthink it guys, an anti-air is something you hit to knock people out of the air. You AA with a lot of shit, hell try it with 5A sometime. Some are just better than others.

:P sorry just trying to give examples:D

[Anne]

:P sorry just trying to give examples:D

you're fine ;w; I'm just throwing in my 2 cents

[Luminos564]

English trailers for:

 

Teddie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQfqfrrxtpk

 

Mitsuru: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xKWNwYpEY8

 

Elizabeth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6juDHz5kn6A

 

Curiously, there's a link (on the Mitsuru trailer) for a Margaret video but it is private. We're little more than a week away from the NA release. Git hype?

[OmegaDivider]

English trailers for:

 

Teddie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQfqfrrxtpk

 

Mitsuru: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xKWNwYpEY8

 

Elizabeth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6juDHz5kn6A

 

Curiously, there's a link (on the Mitsuru trailer) for a Margaret video but it is private. We're little more than a week away from the NA release. Git hype?

 

Yeah, that Margaret link is in Liz's too. Curious :P

 

The Hype is indeed real!

[Balguna]

Is this the first time they've used a Shadow character for the combo examples? Unless they really couldn't find anything for Mitsuru.

[Luminos564]

Is this the first time they've used a Shadow character for the combo examples? Unless they really couldn't find anything for Mitsuru.

 

For the English trailers? Yes. The Japanese ones had a small snippet of a combo at the end where they activated Shadow Rampage/Frenzy. Personally, I think they just thought Shadow Mitsuru's Mabufudyne>Myriad Arrows combo was just too good not to show in its entirety so they used it.

[Doobylover]

Too bad Yukiko might not be viable anyways for other reasons :V

Would love to hear your reasons on that.