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ludwig van

[P4AU] Naoto Shirogane - Gameplay Discussion "TIME TO MOVE"

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Latest patch is apparently fixing a Mudoon bug.

Which aspect of P4A2's Mudoon was bugged and which were the intentional features/changes? I'm kinda clueless.

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Ahiru retweeted some strings that can reliably go into an instant kill at midscreen:

- Sweep > C Zapper > Hama

- Sweep > A Fangs > B Shots (5) > Hama

- Sweep > A Fangs > 6D > Hama

- 5C (air hit) > Hama

- C Shots (5) > SB Hama

- 2C > SB Hama

- Air SB Fangs > Mudo

- OMB > Mudo

- (Maybe) A Shots (5) > SB Hama

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I finally got around to doing an update to the video thread (I blame NEC and then having to fight the NEC plague :vbang: (still fighting it btw ;; )), and due to a lack of free time compared to P4U's release, I'm probably going to hold off uploading vids to my own channel. Better to at least have the thread updated than to drag behind on personal uploads /and/ updates for the video thread.

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Kamoihito's doing stuff again.

Also, I hope Naoto combo videos have more than just Houtenjin combos, they're getting kind of boring at this point imo, and the point that SB kick does a ton of damage was made a long time ago. :v:

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So, was I late to the party, or did Naoto's fatal 2c always take away 2 fate counters in p4u2?

Yeah 2[C] (charged multi hit ver that fatals) takes away 2 fate counter, 2C only takes away 1 though.

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I honestly cannot make up my mind as to whether Naoto seems overall stronger or weaker than in the past iteration. One one hand, She seems to have so many new tools, and her old ones actually seem a bit better than before. However, on the other hand, I can't really tell if her damage has suffered any or if her traps are still as bad as they were in the Loketests.

What's everyone's opinion of her so far? Better? Worse? about the same, perhaps?

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Overall I think she's better.

Her overall damage output seems to be up (At least compared to the damage nerfs everyone suffered in this game), and her combos that go into her double Ansi S Pistol supers seems to cause enough damage that they could be considered almost as much as an SMP loop in the original. Her cooldown on Bullets is a bit worrisome, but it isn't a huge issue considering that she can set up 6 traps now, and Sikuna is a lot faster durring his D attacks. Plus, she's one of the few characters who still has a viable Oki option via traps (Even Chie lost her D oki that was once considered god like in the original game.) Plus, Naoto can inflict Silence, Fear, and Poison fairly easily, thus potentially creating high damaging unburstable combs with life drain. I think her buffs outweigh her nerfs, and that's really good for her.

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Honestly, the thing that makes her seem better is that opponents can't just abuse air moves to negate traps since D traps are immune to them. (IE: RIP Yosuke j.C, Banchou dive kick/Raging Lion, Aigis... stuff, ect) and that 2B and Venom Zapper will make jumping in on Naoto harder. However, I can still see her having a lot of similar problems in MUs. Aigis is still Aigis, SLab is still SLab, Mits still has strong neutral, Banchou lost oki but gained other new tricks, Chie still has damage, ect. We have no SMP but IKing seems to be easier. It seems most of our normals are more or less the same (just how same/different is subject to the frame data, w/e that gets released),

All that said though, the game is still young so it's highly likely that there's still plenty of new stuff to be found.

(And at the end of the day, I'm still waiting for our lord and savior Denpa to put down the BB and show us the /really/ good new shit with Naoto, not just SB Kick shenanigans that Kamoihito seems to enjoy)

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Overall I think she's better.

Her overall damage output seems to be up (At least compared to the damage nerfs everyone suffered in this game), and her combos that go into her double Ansi S Pistol supers seems to cause enough damage that they could be considered almost as much as an SMP loop in the original. Her cooldown on Bullets is a bit worrisome, but it isn't a huge issue considering that she can set up 6 traps now, and Sikuna is a lot faster durring his D attacks. Plus, she's one of the few characters who still has a viable Oki option via traps (Even Chie lost her D oki that was once considered god like in the original game.) Plus, Naoto can inflict Silence, Fear, and Poison fairly easily, thus potentially creating high damaging unburstable combs with life drain. I think her buffs outweigh her nerfs, and that's really good for her.

Agreed. Her buffs do seem to be more apparent than her nerfs, and seem to cover them very well. Though, I'll admit that I will miss setting up all four Traps and sniping the opponent from the other side of the screen with Bullets. That said, she actually looks a little funner to use, now that I take a closer look at what they gave her.

Honestly, the thing that makes her seem better is that opponents can't just abuse air moves to negate traps since D traps are immune to them. (IE: RIP Yosuke j.C, Banchou dive kick/Raging Lion, Aigis... stuff, ect) and that 2B and Venom Zapper will make jumping in on Naoto harder. However, I can still see her having a lot of similar problems in MUs. Aigis is still Aigis, SLab is still SLab, Mits still has strong neutral, Banchou lost oki but gained other new tricks, Chie still has damage, ect. We have no SMP but IKing seems to be easier. It seems most of our normals are more or less the same (just how same/different is subject to the frame data, w/e that gets released),

All that said though, the game is still young so it's highly likely that there's still plenty of new stuff to be found.

(And at the end of the day, I'm still waiting for our lord and savior Denpa to put down the BB and show us the /really/ good new shit with Naoto, not just SB Kick shenanigans that Kamoihito seems to enjoy)

That's not even counting the new characters, and the potential threat they may pose to Naoto (I'm looking at you, Yukari.) XD

Though, if memory serves, we now have a 50/50 mix-up, so that could make some match-ups a bit easier once we catch them.

(Also, sorry for the late reply. I actually just remembered that I posted in here.)

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Matchup vs Yukari looks pretty even, at least from what I've seen from videos. It kind of resembles the Yukiko matchup. It looks like Naoto can shoot through a lot of her stuff and we can DP + Safety to get out of some of the wind pillar setups which is lulzy.

From what I've seen it looks like Mitsuru and Aigis will still give Naoto some trouble (who would have guessed), but it seems much less lopsided than before. I too wish we could get some footage of Denpa to show us what she's really capable of.

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Matchup vs Yukari looks pretty even, at least from what I've seen from videos. It kind of resembles the Yukiko matchup. It looks like Naoto can shoot through a lot of her stuff and we can DP + Safety to get out of some of the wind pillar setups which is lulzy.

From what I've seen it looks like Mitsuru and Aigis will still give Naoto some trouble (who would have guessed), but it seems much less lopsided than before. I too wish we could get some footage of Denpa to show us what she's really capable of.

Yup, I agree completely. And thankfully Yukari shouldn't be too bad to fight against with Naoto because it seems like Yukari's making a stronger case for herself to be top tier (or at least relatively high on the tier list), so it's nice to not be at a disadvantage against all the top tiers like Naoto is now. Another random question though, I was watching a video I found today of a Naoto v. Sho (persona) and it seemed like the fear status Naoto caused from her SB pistol lasted about half the time it does now (about 6 game seconds I think)... is it just me, or an actual change?

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I've played around with her a bit and the bullet recharge down time is a huge problem, imo. It effectively negates her ability to threaten from fullscreen. There's no reason for the opponent to not just sit there and block until she runs out of bullets. Yeah she got better traps and stuff but there's way less risk for the opponent to set off traps once bullets run out. She's more solid now but ouch bullet reload hurts so bad. 2[c] being special cancelable is one of my new favorite things lol.

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I feel like by giving Naoto that Bullet Clip system, their trying to place more focus on Naoto sort of controlling space instead of playing keep away.

Naoto is placing more focus on using the traps and Sikuna's Hikona's increased speed to pressure the opponent through the D series of attacks along with air space control of Vemon Zapper, instead of simply playing keep away by setting up a few traps, then spamming gun shots.

This is also kinda weird. But I kinda like how they made it so Naoto has to reload her gun, it makes it feel a little more real to me, and it forces you to be a little flexible with your zoning and pressure.

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So then what's the point of even having the gun? The gun is only really a threat when it's out and it doesn't see much use in combos outside of her autocombo, and even then having the gun around just for combos is a really stupid design choice imo. Originally the only real threats Naoto's gun had at neutral was the threat of her reloading and ruining the opponent's chance of getting in without blocking another set of bullets or the threat of her canceling out of gun early to get the drop on someone midscreen, but now that there's no threat of that (AND THAT YOU CAN'T MANUALLY RELOAD EITHER) the gun is effectively worthless because the opponent isn't afraid of it. Even if they do get hit what do they care they get in for free afterward anyway. I can't even imagine how awful the Kanji matchup is now.

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No offense, but your kinda pessemistic...

You realize that Naoto got a lot of buffs, and when compared to some of the other cast members, that is SAYING ALOT!

She can now lay 6 freaking traps out at a time. Air normals can no longer disarm D traps, She can virtually inflict silence, poison, and fear all in combo, Sikuna Hikona moves much faster now, making him a better tool to interrupt opponents with, Venom Zapper has Anti Air properties and is great for controlling air space, and Naoto can still zone when her gun is on cool down so long as her Persona is available by inputting 6D in Aim Stance.

If having a cooldown meter on the gun means that Naoto gets all of this other great shit under her belt, I'm fine with it!

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If she ends up being a better character, I'm glad, but removing a tool like that makes me mad. Using gun in the original was already kind of risky, so making it worse was a silly choice imo, and it affects her trap damage because there will be situations now where she can't follow up with bullets, so using it outside of combos is even more questionable because if you do it might not be there for a punish you need.

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They probably limited the bullets so that she didn't end up having CT Nu level of braindead easy zoning with her increased trap number, more resilient ground traps, and faster 5D. Having unlimited pew pew along with all the other buffs would be a bit too much. Most of the better characters could just make Naoto uncomfortable from fullscreen for spamming bullets, and you only really need to shoot one or two bullets to establish space with them before cancelling aim anyway. It's definitely the most awkward change but it was probably for the best. At least we can still end combos from close range with the new 6D shot even without bullets, so Arc thought that far ahead I guess lol.

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Something I was sorta wondering about was "invisible damage" from the poison of venom zapper during combos. Seems to be a thing. Pretty cool!

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Shadow Naoto 100% combo

Good shit. Does anyone know what the startup/recovery for shadow awakening mode activation is? If it's 0/0 this might actually have some good application.

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^I asked both Xie and Stunedge about it and they said that it's basically a pause button. Here's a video showing shadow berserk in a match (shown @ 11:11):

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Not sure if this was said already, but projectile dp shot can be used in aim stance for 25 meter with no bullets, and it has little recovery.

Something the naoto used to catch people with low health was firing all 5 shots, then firing ex shot right after, so that when they tried dashing forward they got caught by the shot.

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