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ludwig van

[P4AU] Naoto Shirogane - Gameplay Discussion "TIME TO MOVE"

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That is a cool find. I would never think of 6D having an EX version, but I guess it is technically a part of 214A. Also it looks like Teddie still shits on Naoto in neutral. =( The gun reloading really hurts that matchup.

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Some obvious and not so obvious(maybe?) thoughts about P4U2 Regular Naoto (Haven't seen enough S.Naoto to comment since S.Characters don't seem to be very explored):

Overall, as far as what kind of character Naoto has become, I feel like she has become a lot more of a stable and straight forward as a character in terms of what she is trying to accomplish. I think every character was designed with some kind of goal in mind in both P4U/P4U2. Easiest thing to use as a reference would be vanilla Chie/Narukami which were both focused on knocking you down and repeatedly comboing you into the same situation. In P4U2, I feel like she is geared towards taking away your fate counters as much as possible now due to the nature of her moves that take away fate counters and the buffs around certain moves that now take more fate counters like traps. Needless to say, Naoto makes her money off of landing SB Gun super to really wreck people by inflicting fear and silence at the same time plus the huge loss of fate counters. In P4U, you had two choices to kill for the most part: SMP or Fate. Now the game kinda made it clear whats what with how much lower her metered damage is. You aren't getting 8k for 50% meter in this version, you'll be getting around 4k unless some crazy combo routes/glitches get discovered. You want their fate. If you can kill them without using Mudoon or Hamaon, than all the better. So I think your "goal to win" is pretty straight forward this time around. Naoto's base damage is still decent since she has a lot of ways to combo off various confirms. Thanks to air fangs, you have a nice way to end air combos that bring you back to the ground pretty quickly and leaves your opponent airborne. 2C being special cancelable is a blessing and makes it so much better of a move as a result. The big daddy damage she use to have is definitely not there anymore per 50% meter used. I don't think theres anymore argument there. Sure she can kill with 150%, but how practical is that? I wouldn't really use that as an argument that her damage is still "high" since I think everyone can do pretty big damage or kill with that many resources.

Ultimately, I feel like her neutral game is harder in this version, but much better. Having 3 of any traps out is great, having a faster 5D is cool, D trap not dying to air attacks, and Venom Zapper makes it so that space control seems to be better. Reduced hitstun on traps is really big and makes it harder to get damage off what I feel has always been the move everyone fears when fighting Naoto. I think the gun meter nerf to Naoto was meant to kind of kill the notion of "Oh Naoto can just spam shots all day and run away". Obviously we all know how risky shots are but the nerf makes it so that resource management is a must now so well placed shots are encouraged. Basically, if you enjoy playing a strong but risky neutral game and don't mind the work, Naoto is still great to play. Just don't expect to run entire games back or have the strongest punishes ever. I think Denpa illustrates what im trying to say best. From the footage i've seen of him, he only had like 500 matches played vs what he had back in vanilla P4U, but honestly he has been the only consistently high placing JP Naoto player out there and I trust his style of play to be an example of ideal Naoto play. So if you guys want to see what I mean, check out the video thread ludwig updated.

Oh and lastly, I think Naoto has really stupid set ups and tricks in this new version that I can't wait to try once the game drops. I've thought about quite a bit of things already that I'd like to try before I share lol.

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Happy to finally watch footage of Denpa, I was wondering if he even still played the game anymore. It looked like he was struggling against Yukari at first but by the end of the set he totally downloaded Tahichi.exe.

And yeah, I am glad Naoto is looking much more solid in the new game. Her zoning looks a lot better, and Venom Zapper helps her control an angle she had trouble dealing with before (plus poison combos are awesome). It looks like her 2B got buffed too, or at least, I see it hit a LOT more often in videos. The gun change will take some getting used to, and may hurt certain matchups, but it's a pretty reasonable change and just forces us to control space with our new tools more and not autopilot shots. Overall, I'm just happy she looks like a much more complete character, because even with her insane comeback/punish potential with SMP in the first game, it felt like she was really lacking options. It looks like she has more tools to make people respect her now.

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Naoto P4U2 Frame Data is up guys. Missing info on traps though and gun shots :( 

 

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Naoto_Frame_Data_(P4AU)

 

Rejoice and be sad all at the same time lol

 

Non official change list (just comparing the old data with her new data). Not listing proration changes/damage changes for now, I will probably edit this post again to include those and not be so lazy and include more info. These are just some things to note at first glance.  

 

- 5B and 5C are dash cancelable

-2B's head invul moved from 9-11f to 6-8f

-AOA is now 26f start up (was 24f) and is now armored starting on frame 13 to 26 (was 16-24) 

-Sweep start up is now 10f (was 8f). Officially low profiles/chest invuls things 4-12f

- 5C is now -14 (was -11) and recovers in 26f (was 23f) 

-5D now recovers in 55f (was 50f) 

- 2[C] is now 18f (was 29f!!!!)

- 2C is now special cancelable

- More recovery on B+D

-Proration nerfs on B fangs and SB fangs

- Mudoon proration nerf, now air unblockable. 

-Changes to number of skulls taken off by certain moves all across the board except for shotgun. 

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2[C] charge time being reduced is really awesome. People can eat it for trying to roll that move now lol. Her pressure seems a lot better with that and 5AA moving her forward. I wonder what the frame advantage/disadvantage on 5B/5C dash cancel is.

So 2B had its head invul moved to earlier in the move. I wonder if it also had a hitbox buff or if the earlier invul just made it more reliable to AA someone on reaction.

AoA startup nerf is somewhat saddening, but at least it has more armor frames now. Guess we'll have to use fuzzy guards and short hop mixup more, but those are safer anyway.

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P4AU is going to get a balance patch update guys. Lets hope we can get some of Naoto's vanilla shit back like autocorrect 5D and her old trap start up, proration, and untech time lol.

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I don't care so much about the 5D auto correct as I do about Traps getting back to their original status! Traps are pretty much Naoto's calling card! 

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So Is the only difference between Naoto and Shadow Naoto, the fact that Shadow Naoto has less damage and can't burst? or do her move's other properties and her abilities change between forms?

 

I can't find a list of differences anywhere, but I also hear talk of Shadow characters getting properties like stun or confuse on some of their attacks.

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So Is the only difference between Naoto and Shadow Naoto, the fact that Shadow Naoto has less damage and can't burst? or do her move's other properties and her abilities change between forms?

 

I can't find a list of differences anywhere, but I also hear talk of Shadow characters getting properties like stun or confuse on some of their attacks.

 

Main differences between Shadow Naoto and Naoto are the Shadow fury activation, no burst and auto combos. Shadow characters build meter very quickly and require less meter to do things like OMC, use supers, etc. Frame data is identical according to the mook (but its been known to be inaccurate often) between the two characters. One thing to note about S.Naoto (Shadow characters in general) is that during Shadow fury mode she has the ability to free cancel moves kinda like a KOF character so you'll see stuff like Naoto doing grounded B fangs and not enter the snipe stance follow up as a result of this. And Shadow characters don't get extra ailments. Characters across the board generally got more moves with ailment affliction. Naoto can now poison, which adds on to her ability to already silence and put fear on an opponent. 

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Wait Naoto 2[C] is 18f startup now what

Isn't that move like +50 on block? How many characters can even poke out of a reset normal that fast? That would pretty much mean that for some characters with short R-Actions (i.e. most of them) your only option is to super, CA, or roll, which in turn means we're probably going to be seeing a LOT of Naoto FC punishes in the future.

I guess that's cool, my biggest gripe with vanilla Naoto was lack of reliable ways to open the opponent up.

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It's +8, but yeah, I foresee many people eating 2C FCs in the future. It's nice that Naoto will have a reliable way to continue pressure instead of doing funky things like cancelling into traps to make them "respect" you.

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Rejoice guys, 5D~D can now hit behind behind again in the new update granted we hold back during the second D.

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Nice!  Seems like she came out pretty good, save for the damage nerf on SB Critical Shot, but both she and her Shadow version are looking pretty great now, so I'm happy!

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I don't really mind the SB Critical Shot nerf as much as I appreciate the 5D buff, as it should give her an easier time starting pressure and giving her some momentum. The increased untech time on CH air Double Fangs sound interesting as well but on one hand, I don't think I've ever seen combos with air Double Fangs at all.

 

On that note, how is air Double Fangs as a stand alone air attack btw?

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SB Shot nerf is reasonable as it did way too much dmg. Autocorrect 5D is so nice to have again. 

 

Air double fangs are incredibly safe on block assuming you hit with them very low/late. A and B version should be around -2 or -1 and SB might actually be 0 on block and they are all fast (9f and 13f start ups). Since she isn't forced to go straight into snipe stance, you can probably continue pressure on an opponent who isn't ready or has a 7+ frame 5A. Good times. Theres way too much to this character that is unexplored.

 

On another note, all Shadow characters have more health than their regular counter parts (I think they all have 2k more health), so S.Naoto might even be very viable despite not having a burst/awakening. The health buff plus the other tweaks to Shadow characters seem to be very interesting and definitely worth investing time into, especially a character like Naoto who can shave off Fate counters pretty easily with 50/75% meter assuming you play well enough to build the meter to pull off a fast kill. 

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Watching Denpa's S. Naoto has me wondering a few things so Ill throw some out there to maybe spark discussion? Also maybe a ok thread idea would be to have one where we just post a bunch of ideas on specific stuff to test out when the game comes out, whether it be combo ideas, oki ideas, matchup stuff etc. Could lead to some helpful knowledge sharing on accident too? Idk just a thought I had, anyways

 

- Shadow 5AAA being special cancelable now looks interesting kinda. He went for 5AAA>Bfang tho im wondering if maybe 5AAA>C trap or SB trap would work in the corner for some nice fate reducing.

 

- DP>Safety he did against shos projectile a bit which made me wonder if itll have use vs Yukiko fire stuff maybe?  Maybe even some teddie stuff like when the buckets of doom rain down upon us.

 

-Due to the timer-esque system to Shadow fury maybe using shotgun instead of SB gun would be helpful to squeeze out a bit of dmg?

 

-5AAA iirc leads to easy safe jump and gives nice meter gain so maybe using that as a ender more often while using shadow naoto will be a thing?

 

-Shadow fury lets normal shots be canceled into other stuff like fangs which could lead into funny mixups. Maybe 236A>j236A/~B would work if the first hit of air fangs is overhead? Doubt it tho if so thatd be a really funny/dumb thing tho 
 

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Watching Denpa's S. Naoto has me wondering a few things so Ill throw some out there to maybe spark discussion? Also maybe a ok thread idea would be to have one where we just post a bunch of ideas on specific stuff to test out when the game comes out, whether it be combo ideas, oki ideas, matchup stuff etc. Could lead to some helpful knowledge sharing on accident too? Idk just a thought I had, anyways

 

- Shadow 5AAA being special cancelable now looks interesting kinda. He went for 5AAA>Bfang tho im wondering if maybe 5AAA>C trap or SB trap would work in the corner for some nice fate reducing.

 

- DP>Safety he did against shos projectile a bit which made me wonder if itll have use vs Yukiko fire stuff maybe?  Maybe even some teddie stuff like when the buckets of doom rain down upon us.

 

-Due to the timer-esque system to Shadow fury maybe using shotgun instead of SB gun would be helpful to squeeze out a bit of dmg?

 

-5AAA iirc leads to easy safe jump and gives nice meter gain so maybe using that as a ender more often while using shadow naoto will be a thing?

 

-Shadow fury lets normal shots be canceled into other stuff like fangs which could lead into funny mixups. Maybe 236A>j236A/~B would work if the first hit of air fangs is overhead? Doubt it tho if so thatd be a really funny/dumb thing tho 

That's probably one of, if not the main reason some of us (at least for me lol) are considering S.Naoto as a viable character choice.

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Watching Denpa's S. Naoto has me wondering a few things so Ill throw some out there to maybe spark discussion? Also maybe a ok thread idea would be to have one where we just post a bunch of ideas on specific stuff to test out when the game comes out, whether it be combo ideas, oki ideas, matchup stuff etc. Could lead to some helpful knowledge sharing on accident too? Idk just a thought I had, anyways

 

- Shadow 5AAA being special cancelable now looks interesting kinda. He went for 5AAA>Bfang tho im wondering if maybe 5AAA>C trap or SB trap would work in the corner for some nice fate reducing.

 

- DP>Safety he did against shos projectile a bit which made me wonder if itll have use vs Yukiko fire stuff maybe?  Maybe even some teddie stuff like when the buckets of doom rain down upon us.

 

-Due to the timer-esque system to Shadow fury maybe using shotgun instead of SB gun would be helpful to squeeze out a bit of dmg?

 

-5AAA iirc leads to easy safe jump and gives nice meter gain so maybe using that as a ender more often while using shadow naoto will be a thing?

 

-Shadow fury lets normal shots be canceled into other stuff like fangs which could lead into funny mixups. Maybe 236A>j236A/~B would work if the first hit of air fangs is overhead? Doubt it tho if so thatd be a really funny/dumb thing tho 

 

 

I believe the reason Denpa was using the SB version of the gun is to automatically silence Sho so that way he would be unable to burst during any of his combos and still keep the fatal since a lot of the times Sho had his burst by the time he had enough meter do do them. S.Naoto is looking seriously dangerous and im so excited to play her. 

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Somethings Ive just noticed in this combo it seems as though in shadow burst aim stance from ground fangs is either ignored or you can cancel certain special into whatever you like (most likely the former but the latter would be hilarious) as he does B fang>run at one point and later on A fang>2AB. Idk Im probably just super slow but I found that pretty interesting once I finally noticed it. 

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Yeah after watching a few more videos of S.Naoto, I'm kind of glad that I'm right (I think) in assuming that S.Naoto is better than Naoto which is what I've been thinking ever since the game came out and we all found out that the Shadow characters have the old auto combos.

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Got to play a little bit of Naoto at the P4U2 booth at EVO. Naoto definitely feels a lot more complete, competent, and more fun to play.

 

Traps feel like they have a bit more recovery; the timing for airdashing after setting an air trap is a bit later than vanilla. I think this was always the case in the loketests, they just never looked like they visually had more recovery in the videos.

 

I thought the bullet recharge timer would be annoying but I don't mind it so much. She has enough zoning tools now to make up for it. Definitely will take more getting used to though, as I kept trying to refire the gun despite running out of bullets lol.

 

The new 2B is da gawd, looks noticeably faster and has a better hitbox. Venom Zapper is a good situational anti-air as well. No longer can people just derp in at Naoto from the air as hard; felt good to AA Narukami and Aigis on reaction. One thing I noticed though is that it felt like the window to gatling into 5C was shorter. If I waited too long to confirm 2B CH > 5C, the opponent could tech out.

 

IAD combos still work but they feel character-specific/corner only? Swear I got airthrow > RC > jC > 5C > IAD jA jC etc to work on Narukami but couldn't get it to work on the other characters I play against. Will have to mess around in training mode when the game comes out.

 

EX Hamaon auto tracks to where the opponent is. Good if you just need to get in once for the kill. EX Gun super feels dirty. Prevents them from bursting and lets you set up a jC safejump where you can throw/throw bait mixup or go for a fear fuzzy guard.

 

Tried out Shadow Naoto a little. Shadow characters definitely require a different mindset to play; need to save your meter for S. Berserk mode. Dunno the optimal Shadow routes so just tried to do stuff > Berserk > spam EX gun super lol.

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