Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Martian Buddy

[P4AU] Kanji Loketest/Changes Discussion

Recommended Posts

I'm a little slow, what does 5B 2B 5C 2C mean?

Glad to hear Pikazuchi tackle helps with Air control though. Might make the vs Yosuke and vs Teddie matchups slightly less painful.

...speak for yourself, it'll make fights with naoto (and yukari in the future) EASIER...especially if you know my hardship fo dealing with the same naoto who always did "5AAAAA-super that silences my persona like it was freaking cheap,rinse and repeat,results to cheap loss."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...speak for yourself, it'll make fights with naoto (and yukari in the future) EASIER...especially if you know my hardship fo dealing with the same naoto who always did "5AAAAA-super that silences my persona like it was freaking cheap,rinse and repeat,results to cheap loss."

Oh no, I wasn't understating the fact that it'll help against zoners, I know it wil land that was discussed earlier.

I was just saying good air control will help us against Yosuke and Teddie who can do a lot in the air against Kanji.

Standing B, crouching B, standing C, crouching C.

789

456

123

5 is neutral, 2 is down, etc.

I should've been more clear, my mistake. I was curious as to what they meant by it being gone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh no, I wasn't understating the fact that it'll help against zoners, I know it wil land that was discussed earlier.

I was just saying good air control will help us against Yosuke and Teddie who can do a lot in the air against Kanji.

I should've been more clear, my mistake. I was curious as to what they meant by it being gone.

oh whoops i'm sorry I missed this post for a while!

specifically you can no longer chain cancel 5b into 2b, 5b into 5c, or 5b into 2c.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah that's lame.

I mean out of all those I only really used 5B into 2B but still.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

finally went back and retranslated/clarified some things.

sounds like new DIal A is great on hit. 214C might be weaker by 2, 300 damage, but that also might be shadow mode's skewer. so, rumor.

bunch of hubub over whether 5aa2B combos without crouch confirm/on air hit-i haven't 100% confirmed ifa nyone tested it yet.

5AA - Aba's Moroha HS, essentially. Kanji makes a huge swing with his chair and steps forward while doing it. (this means 5AA air hit cancels are more reliable.) Hima thinks it's going to be strong. Same gatlings/cancels as current. Gives me good hope for the normal, which means 5B > 2b isn't that big a deal lol.

5AAA - Hit style grab. Kanji tosses the opponent up, gives groundbounce.

5AAAA - j.214b. We now have a hard knockdown dialA that will give meter/burst. Much more viable to just Dial A on anti air 5A hits for damage/etc, most likely.

I have yet to see a solid confirm that 236A's distance on followup hit has changed, so our oki might not be that much weaker. rumor tho. Air 236A/B followups do not exist.

apparently we can choose to move forward during 214D before the grab activates. not 100% sure.

214214CD = Not a 0f grab, but the range that kanji moves forward is doubled. Does about 4.4k if math serves right (it was 3k something on an awakened opponent)

hima seems to think kanji is doing well but is getting more boring with his air movement nerfed. pet seems to think he's garbagola lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

also, just as a heads up-I never really translated the name of Kanji's new attack because I knew it was going to be completely different in the english translation - now that i have the time, i looked it up, and his new tackle move is going to be called 'Primal Force', as that's how it was translated in P4/P4G. eff year

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Primal Force was an awesome move, but I'm not sure if that tackle charge is the right move to represent it. Oh well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

by the way, okusan nikuya just retweeted me and mentioned that, indeed, shadow kanji's voice was already in, and was yelling the sort of ambiguous homoerotic whatnot that we were expecting ww

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

just wanted to post some SUPER BASIC theoryfighting about the changes kanji is getting so people can understand what kind of a character we're looking at for P4C currently, in terms of weakness/not:

First off, in current revision, the only thing kanji REALLY lacks is a solid neutral game. His pokes and everything else just... don't really work all that solidly. The Japanese have moved towards abusing the air action after j.c and the extremely low landing recovery after that point to make it as annoying to neutral VS kanji as possible, and getting lucky in neutral with random 5C/j.b hits and guessing the opponents' tech into a 2D or 5D to catch them on the air/ground and start our usual game. With his current runspeed/pokes, that's really the best he can do-if he could play a solid neutral game, he'd be a strong character.

new autocombo - Kanji's new autocombo is pretty significant-his 5AA is not only a big normal that sounds like it'll help for hitconfirming vs air opponents (no more tipper 5aa whiffing), it has all the same cancel options as his current 5AA, and the autocombo ends in j.214B, meaning if you autocombo a confirm, you get a hard knockdown into mixup rather than being left with a + standing confirm like we are right now, which is great!

shoulder charge/Primal Force - This is going to be a big one for Kanji, a new move that he can use to deal with zoning characters/people floating around recklessly. From the video we saw of it already, it's clear that it's similar to mitsuru's whips or liz's 5D, in which it has a long startup but very, VERY little recovery, probably around 10 frames. This means the instant it's active, we should be able to block, and it'll plow through enemy projectiles nice and cleanly before either knocking the opponent down, or FC wallslamming them if they got counterhit. From the video shown, any erasable projectiles (Yukiko fans, narukami fireballs, teddie firecracker, etc) will be erased by the persona's armor when it flies out, and piercing projectiles (Liz Maziodyne, Yukari Arrows, Yosuke Kunai) will go through it, but not kill the persona. Basically, it's like Shadow Labrys' bull block, anything that pierces the bull and hits Shabrys should pierce Takemikazuchi and go towards Kanji. While Kanji hasn't been having the HARDEST time dealing with projectile zoners, this WILL make his life a lot easier. It will be much scarier for liz to float around with j.b, Yukiko to throw fans carelessly, etc and give him a bigger reason for people to respect him rather than just floating around as they please.

5C changes - Probably the biggest change to Kanji. Right now, 5C is a pretty nice, but somewhat weak normal-It puts a big hitbox on screen, but it lacks an anti air hitbox, letting people airdash over it, and the chain options on non CH are pretty weak. On non CH hit, if the opponent is grounded, your best bet is just landing a 236A, or doing something like 2B > 236C if they're point blank. HOWEVER. It's already been confirmed that 5C lets Kanji dash cancel forward now, and not only that, that the dash cancel forward is 'strong'. This can only mean a few things, honestly. Most likely, the dash cancel isn't RIDICULOUSLY - on block, or it can be spaced to be safe. As long as it's say, no worse than -3, that's going to be fantastic for kanji. -3 means they would be able to punish him on IB, but if you space it so you dash up and are outside of their 5A normals, you STILL got rewarded for having them block a 5C by getting distance on them-It's like, an actual neutral tool or something! IF it's any LESS negative than that on block, then Kanji will be able to do RPS off of it depending on the distance he runs, which will obviously be a huge reward for making them block 5C in spacing. On air hit, even non CH, he'll probably be able to get a full combo off of the dash cancel.

Not only that, but it paralyzes on hit-Any time you get a random hit that you cant' combo off of non CH, paralyzing them means that you just made the neutral game significantly more in your favor, evne if you have to deal with them mashing buttons on the way in. Especially since you can dash cancel it now, it's entirely possible that on a ground non CH hit, you can hit -> paralyze -> dash cancel forward and guarantee some sort of RPS, which is hilariously frightening. This is probably the biggest buff to Kanji in the list at all lol.

Persona Buffs - Looking at it, only having 3 cards sounds like a nerf, but it's been confirmed all cards regenerate at the same, steady pace, meaning that if you have 3 cards, you recover faster than someone with 4 cards-with the new buffs that Kanji can do his 214214C super and his 214C/D grabs without his persona, this means our life is THAT MUCH EASIER once we're persona broken. We'll still be losing 236C in combos, but the instant you're persona broken, people can't just downback and wait for a throwtech to disrespect-even if you do less damage, they have to care.

Supers - 236236AB is going to be huge. Kanji can currently get 4.5-5.6k off of any 236236a confirm either by OMCing or OMBing, and giving him an option for 75 meter to continue the combo (via wallbounce) is going to be fantastic! The fact that 236236A is 11f means it's kanji's fastest normal to do an actual combo off of, let alone the invuln.

214214CD does NOT grab instantly after the superflash. This sounds like a big nerf, but let me explain something really quick. Our current 214214C grabs with a startup of 6+0. That means that there's 6 frames of startup,before the superflash, and the move activates 0 frames after superflash-read, instantly. In addition to this, you can punish any more that's -6 or more on block! Makes sense so far, right? While the superflash is nice for an element of surprise, they've confirmed the purpose of 214214CD isn't more damage or anything else, but the fact your grab range has effectively doubled in the duration. This most likely means the move is something like.. 1+5, or possibly as late as 1+7. In other words, they can react to it every time they see it (ala Liz cmd grab super) but if they're in recovery, we can now punish them from MUCH further away than we could previously-This is REALLY exciting, since it probably opens up a bunch of punish options we never had before, like punishing Mitsuru's 5AA/A on block, which is rather awkward for multiple reasons. Spacing Kanji out to avoid mashing out command grabs to deal with any sort of mixup they would try to do won't work anywhere near as well anymore. :> The damage is still the same, but it's going to be a blessing to have new punish options.

Most of the other buffs are, as far as we know, icing on the cake-5B chaining to AoA will be... um, neat, i guess ww. Air 236A/B will depend entirely on how it works, but it's already confirmed it brings in new combo routes, as j.a j.b j.a j.b 236A/B combos on FC. How + or - it is on block from above will be huge, and it might lead to Kanji being able to end combos in air chairs the opponent is forced to block that will lead into RPS, among other things. We don't know enough yet! Similarly, we just don't know enough about the fact that 236B as a combo ender will no longer go fullscreen, but instead will make Kanji do the usual tall jump animation before hitting the ground-Whatever it's for, it'll probably be very potent as long as 236A works the same, which it seems to be.

oh, and you can move backwards/forwards during 214D and AoA. lol...? the former is definitely good but you can't really do much but giggle at it

now then, the NERFS.

1. 5B > 2B and 5B > 5C are removed.

Okay, I KNOW this looks like a major nerf, both to combos and for our tick grab game... but honestly, kanji HAS other ways to run his RPS, this was just an easy, instant way to make any chain into a frametrap that catches jumps. 5AA > 2B is literally the exact same frametrap as 5B > 2B, and Kanji can catch jumps with 5AA > 5AA, 5A2A > 5AA, and 5B > microdash 5AA just fine. We're going to live without it, and I can already optimize Kanji's combos to do about the same amount of damage without 5B 2B in them-and considering everyone got a damage nerf, this should be AOK for Kanji.

2. J.B > 214B does not combo.

This IS a little worrying, but I see two reasons for this change-One, 5AAAA now combos into j.214B, so you can end combos into your auto combo to get a hard knockdown when you would usually do 5AA > jump cancel nonsense, j.B > 236A works, giving us new ways to end combos, or something that wasnt' mentioned by the japanese, it appears that j.C might be a hard knockdown on airborne opponents now-In the loketest videos we DID get to see, every time a kanji comboed into j.c in the air, the opponent didn't tech until they hit the ground-this could be them wanting to avoid air teching into a trap of sorts or something else, but it could definitely mean they want us to combo into j.c to end air combos now. Either way, definitely not a big deal.

3. Recovery after J.C increased, and air backdash distance reduced by half.

Okay, first off, as mentioned previously, Japanese Kanjis abuse the shit out of being able to instant j.c and then double jump/backdash afterwards to make the move nigh unpunishable and potentially giving him a random FC at neutral that he can convert to 5k easily. No matter what action you take afterwards, there's a small landing recovery afterwards, but... to be honest, it's REALLY dumb and it doesn't give kanji a real neutral game lol. Nobody in America that i've seen genuinely abuses this style of Kanji, so it shouldn't affect american play very much.

Air backdash is obviously a big deal though-Kanji's air backdash is quite nice, and air turning to backdash forward is pretty good, considering Kanji's backdash goes FURTHER than his air front dash does, and allows him to block more quickly... like, the only thing front dash has over backdash is the fact you can air turn immediately to cover in front of you/behind you with j.b or j.c the instant you need to. This seems to be a pain for Kanji's mobility, but with the buffs to 5C and being able to control air movement better with air 236a/b, this could easily be a non problem!

in addition to this, there's a lot of potential changes that we might not know about because people haven't gotten to play the game long enough-for example, airgrab hitbox being fixed similar to the rest of the cast, airgrab giving an actual reward on hit, Kanji j.a being buffed to be an actual air to air normal or having a better hitbox, j.c potentially being a hard knockdown now, etc etc. There's a huge list of things that people definitely wont' notice at first that might be improved in this build, and I'm pretty certain they'll at least do something wtih his airthrow/j.a! he already sounds way stronger than he was before purely because his neutral is going to be easier to play and every other character's damage and oki lockdown has been significantly nerfed (characters have to rely on safejumps more, which is very hard against Kanji's DP), so overall, kanji seems like he's going to be a much more solid character in the new one than he is currently!

he is not getting nerfed sillies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Updated the first post with updated info from Omex.

The more I read about Primal Force the more I'm in love with it. :yaaay:

thank you, it means a lot to me someone is keeping up and watching the forum

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

blah blah kanji still looks strong btw. can explain changes as needed if people are curious.

also, nakiri confirmed seeing 2B > 214C chain possible. whaaat LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I haven't updated the OP with it yet, but thoughts on the 3rd Loketest changes? Other than, you know, "WHAT IS THIS MADNESS :vbang:"

Then again some of the changes seem a little out there as of right now.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I haven't updated the OP with it yet, but thoughts on the 3rd Loketest changes? Other than, you know, "WHAT IS THIS MADNESS :vbang:"

Then again some of the changes seem a little out there as of right now.

We're looking PRETTY AWKWARD right now. Thankfully some of it was rumor or whatnot, but if we don't have invuln on 214C anymore, we're going to get mashed out of every grab frametrap we try to do.

...though air j.236a apparently being plus would help with that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OP Updated.

Yeah, Kanji is looking awkward as hell right now. He really looks like he's in a "we're testing stuff out" phase in this Loketest, hopefully the next time he'll be not nearly as weird.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I saw a video of Kanji vs Mitsuru and saw his auto-combo. I think it might lead into some strange mix ups due to the nature of the grab in the auto combo (not sure if its blockable) and B Cruel Attack.

Also, Bet Ya Can't Take This looked the same, but then again, it was off a B Cruel Attack, but same speed makes me happy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's very likely. His j.C confirm goes into 5.6 with a new basic route (j.C CH 5C 2C 5B sweep 236B 5A 2B 236B 5AAAA) so it's pretty easy to imagine how they could get to 6.5 atm.

btw, instant j.c is back.

214C FC > 236B > 5AAAA combo

close to corner Yolodive > 4.8

j.214B FC > 236B does not combo

236236AB lowest damage is 930

no gauge 5.9 off of j.c FC (pet)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Apparently, he has a 6.5K fatal combo? I can't confirm it myself yet, as I got the info from a friend who saw it on ustream which doesn't seem to archive videos...

I can confirm it happened.

Kanji ended the combo with 236236A > 236C > 236A I believe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×