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[P4U2] Naoto/Shadow Naoto Discussion/Speculation

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So a jbbs post has a combo of AoA D>5B>JD>SB Trap>JA>5C>A Fang>Charge 2C>5C>A Fangs, and according to Omex the post says this takes away 7 fate, but if what we know about the changes to fate is correct, shouldn't that do 5 fate instead? Or maybe traps do 3 fate in combos regardless of previous fate taking moves?

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So a jbbs post has a combo of AoA D>5B>JD>SB Trap>JA>5C>A Fang>Charge 2C>5C>A Fangs, and according to Omex the post says this takes away 7 fate, but if what we know about the changes to fate is correct, shouldn't that do 5 fate instead? Or maybe traps do 3 fate in combos regardless of previous fate taking moves?

That sounds entirely possible - maybe as a reward for setting it up all those traps to combo well enough.

This might change well enough though. Might end up being 5 counters in the end. Still, not shabby for a AoA starter (though I assume it's corner only)

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Ok, so Stunedge says it should've been 5 fate, and that the guy might just not know how fate works.

EDIT: ok, thinking about how we can get a 5A followup off of air A Fangs, and assuming you end up in Aim Stance like the grounded versions, I think it's safe to say that the recovery for getting out of aim is indeed faster if you don't shoot any bullets. Anyone agree/disagree?

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Stuff.

Well, being able to reduce the Fate Counter more than once per combo sounds like a welcomed boon to me. And honestly, I wouldn't mind if Naoto's gameplay was more centered around using her zoning to reduce the counter and end battles with her Instant Kills. :cool:

Also, traps not being viable for Oki doesn't really hurt Naoto that much In my opinion. They've never seemed that strong an option when compared to other characters Oki options. We (Or just I) can depend on 2B for Okizeme. :toot:

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Well, being able to reduce the Fate Counter more than once per combo sounds like a welcomed boon to me. And honestly, I wouldn't mind if Naoto's gameplay was more centered around using her zoning to reduce the counter and end battles with her Instant Kills. :cool:

Also, traps not being viable for Oki doesn't really hurt Naoto that much In my opinion. They've never seemed that strong an option when compared to other characters Oki options. We (Or just I) can depend on 2B for Okizeme. :toot:

Agreed, unless I was in the corner, I usually try either 5D~D or a meaty Double Fangs for Oki. Naoto's practical instant deaths are where she really shines, her Oki is nowhere near as good as someone like Yukiko, Yu, or Chie.

I mostly use Traps to control Space, and then use Snipe to force some turtling, where I counter there rushes or jump ins with the proper shot.

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Just where are you guys using 2B or meaty 236A for oki? :v: Naoto's trap oki in the corner is one of the few things she has to actually make people respect her. Without it we'll be left with 236A into safejump setups, unless other setups come along. No she doesn't get seconds of lockdown where she can do whatever she wants like Yu or Chie but you force the other player to block or literally die if they get hit. Even a less optimal hitconfirm can lead into a short combo into the same situation. Maybe they'll discovery some new oki with her but until then this is a pretty huge blow.

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Zeromus, I understand your a little worried about the Trap recovery, were all a little worried. But its too early to start freaking out considering this the first Loctest, even if it carries over to the final game, the best we can do is make the best of it, or play with a different character.

Other then the Trap Recovery, Naoto's received some nice buffs through her new Venom Blade Special, a new Super that inflicts Fear, Silence, and takes off 6 Fate Counters, and her overall ability to remove fate counters has improved, making Instant Deaths more practical. So far, other then traps, things have been shaping nicely.

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More importantly, this is just the first loketest-After translating for every character at least once, it definitely seems like a few characters are in ~loketest~ mode right now, particularly Naoto and Labrys, to an extent. Things can and will definitely change.

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Zeromus, I understand your a little worried about the Trap recovery, were all a little worried. But its too early to start freaking out considering this the first Loctest, even if it carries over to the final game, the best we can do is make the best of it, or play with a different character.

Other then the Trap Recovery, Naoto's received some nice buffs through her new Venom Blade Special, a new Super that inflicts Fear, Silence, and takes off 6 Fate Counters, and her overall ability to remove fate counters has improved, making Instant Deaths more practical. So far, other then traps, things have been shaping nicely.

My thoughts exactly. :)

Besides, is the Trap Recover even THAT much? How much has it increased by?

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I'm not trying to sound pessimistic, and I'm well aware this is a loketest - believe me, I am fairly optimistic about Naoto in the grand scheme of things. If my post made me seem like I was "freaking out" I apologize. But when I'm analyzing changes and you guys say, "this isn't really a big change, because I never used something so integral to Naoto's game anyway", it definitely makes me go :psyduck:

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I'll admit, Corner Oki Traps are going to be a little harder now, But I'm sure we'll get by some how. (Usually for Oki, I'd Meaty Double Fangs mid screen, and Trap Oki in the corner when not trying to pull off a SMP.)

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I'll admit, Corner Oki Traps are going to be a little harder now, But I'm sure we'll get by some how. (Usually for Oki, I'd Meaty Double Fangs mid screen, and Trap Oki in the corner when not trying to pull off a SMP.)

Double fang is a poor meaty. It hits mid, doesn't lead to damage, and has dp bait written all over it.

the midscreen trap oki is right on the border frame wise as it is, if they added recovery to it, it will no longer work, and QE is frame 1 projectile invuln now anyway.

Poison might actually have been an interesting mechanic for naoto if they didn't nerf her already poor zoning and buff the counter-zoning of the entire cast. Unless venom blade turns out to be REALLY good, based on the current change list she's pretty much boned unless there are high fate counter combo paths that get discovered, which will be more difficult given the trap recovery.

she definitely got hit hardest with the nerf bat, and has little to show for it.

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I had to chime in and say that according to denpas twitter, D traps are no longer triggered by enemy air attacks. Naoto have fun with that. Omex will have more stuff he tweeted tomorrow.

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Double fang is a poor meaty. It hits mid, doesn't lead to damage, and has dp bait written all over it.

the midscreen trap oki is right on the border frame wise as it is, if they added recovery to it, it will no longer work, and QE is frame 1 projectile invuln now anyway.

Poison might actually have been an interesting mechanic for naoto if they didn't nerf her already poor zoning and buff the counter-zoning of the entire cast. Unless venom blade turns out to be REALLY good, based on the current change list she's pretty much boned unless there are high fate counter combo paths that get discovered, which will be more difficult given the trap recovery.

she definitely got hit hardest with the nerf bat, and has little to show for it.

You do realize that this is the FIRST Loctest, and most of these changes are subject to change. It's not until the final Loctest where we'll have to start worrying about the nerfs Naoto was dealt. And even if Naoto is hit pretty hard by the Nerf Bat, the best you can do is to suck it up and continue playing her, use a different character, or just not buy the game at all. In other words people, lets try and be a little more positive for the time being!

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To me, Naoto is probably the most interesting character on the roster because how her instant kill works and how (at least, I think this is how the designers were intending) damage wasn't as much a factor to damage as getting the Fate Counter to 0 so you can get the win.

I like to equate the style of playing to milling or control in Magic: The Gathering, and ultimately, I think that's what the designers might want for her, to be a character that doesn't do large damage but whittles down an opponent before, quite literally, killing them in one blow.

That said, I think it's becoming apparent you can't really win in this game with such a style unless you really put in the effort. Hence, I get the impression the designers want to shift her to a more Jack of All Trades roll, while still retaining, in fact enhancing, her Fate Counter removal tools.

The poison is a good start as in the more than the initial fate removal per combo change, I always found that weird. Now if you could bring a person to 0 counters and put them in Mudoon or Hamaan in the same combo and it works (no need to drop the combo for the game to register that the player has 0 counters), Naoto's playstyle might work.

Otherwise, I just wonder what her main game plan with be with the changes to her traps and zoning along with other characters getting ways around zoning like Kanji's new tackle move

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There is no reason to to jump ship just yet. It's fine to discuss what consequences the changes that we know about would have on Naoto by comparing what Naoto is able to do as of now in the version everyone has access too. There is no reason to get at each other so much as everything is speculation and comparison. Random Naoto isn't wrong by saying right now Naoto is looking kinda iffy based off the known information we have, there is no need to get defensive about his opinions/thoughts. I'm sure there will be more loketests in the future for this game, but no one can actually be sure since they never even announced anything about having P4C loketests to begin with, so its okay to take these changes somewhat seriously because they do show the intentions of the game designers and what they feel needs to be rebalanced. I'm sure whoever has a problem with how Naoto turns out in the final version of P4C will go along there own way, but in the meantime discussing the implications of Naoto's changes based off of her current design is just the natural thing to do until more concrete info comes up.

I'm looking forward to getting more info so I can form some kind of picture in my mind as to how Naoto is suppose to work because her current playstyle doesn't sound optimal in P4C. The uncertainty I believe is what makes most of us somewhat worried and pessimistic sounding, but thats just natural. It just means we care lol.

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I like to equate the style of playing to milling or control in Magic: The Gathering, and ultimately, I think that's what the designers might want for her, to be a character that doesn't do large damage but whittles down an opponent before, quite literally, killing them in one blow.

I like this comparison lol. Yeah, one of the appealing things about Naoto, to me, is that she has an "alternate win-condition" no other character has - but it's not pushed to be the main focus of her game. I see Naoto as a versatile zoning character first, Instant Kill character second, and it would be a shame if they focused her entirely on the Fate kill to the detriment of the other aspects of her game. But yeah, first loketest and all that jazz, so she could end up in an entirely different direction in the final game.

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There is no reason to to jump ship just yet. It's fine to discuss what consequences the changes that we know about would have on Naoto by comparing what Naoto is able to do as of now in the version everyone has access too. There is no reason to get at each other so much as everything is speculation and comparison. Random Naoto isn't wrong by saying right now Naoto is looking kinda iffy based off the known information we have, there is no need to get defensive about his opinions/thoughts. I'm sure there will be more loketests in the future for this game, but no one can actually be sure since they never even announced anything about having P4C loketests to begin with, so its okay to take these changes somewhat seriously because they do show the intentions of the game designers and what they feel needs to be rebalanced. I'm sure whoever has a problem with how Naoto turns out in the final version of P4C will go along there own way, but in the meantime discussing the implications of Naoto's changes based off of her current design is just the natural thing to do until more concrete info comes up.

I'm looking forward to getting more info so I can form some kind of picture in my mind as to how Naoto is suppose to work because her current playstyle doesn't sound optimal in P4C. The uncertainty I believe is what makes most of us somewhat worried and pessimistic sounding, but thats just natural. It just means we care lol.

Very well said.

If Naoto can at the very least still zone somewhat effectively by the final Loketest, I'll be happy. However, the looming shadow of uncertainty and worry is all but too present when it comes to Loketests.

I like this comparison lol. Yeah, one of the appealing things about Naoto, to me, is that she has an "alternate win-condition" no other character has - but it's not pushed to be the main focus of her game. I see Naoto as a versatile zoning character first, Instant Kill character second, and it would be a shame if they focused her entirely on the Fate kill to the detriment of the other aspects of her game. But yeah, first loketest and all that jazz, so she could end up in an entirely different direction in the final game.

Elizabeth would like to disagree. :toot:

But yes, I agree with you that her Playstyle would be a bit... underwhelming if they made her more about the Instant Kills and less about the Zoning and Trapping.

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The first of some new stuff from the second loketest, shoutouts to Omex: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1P3-fyaHUzfgguGgELgt-Cw0QapJ2ZhvZZV8o2kL0BUg/edit#

New input in gun stance: 6D

New input during DP: 4A/B/C/D. Name is ‘Safety’. What it does is unknown. DP seems to be a counter once again.

Also new trailer, you can see Naoto's Venom Zapper around 0:44 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgtskV0Y4dY&t=0m44s

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I was looking at some of Stunedge's notes, and it seems like Naoto improved a bit from the first loctest. Basically, while her Oki is still hurt, and her DP is a counter again, she can still set up traps effectively for zoning purposes, and her new Venom Zapper is a great way to squeeze extra damage out of combos. Plus, the Traps now take off 4 Fate Counters now, so that should be pretty useful.

While Naoto is far from perfect, I feel like we made a step in the right direction this loctest.

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4 Fate counters on traps along with three of the same trap at a time sounds super broken, they REALLY want us to go for the fate kill lol.

I wonder what the C trap untechable time is like. Is it so short that we can't even connect a 5C on non-CH? There must be some way to confirm back into oki, otherwise trap oki will still be worthless.

The new bullet pattern stuff with EX roll sounds interesting. Wonder what kind of stylish combo video material we can get with it and the new 6D bullet.

5D not autocorrecting is saddening. Also more recovery on air EX trap is sad; sounds like no more EX trap fastfall shenanigans.

The Mudoon being air-unblockable is pretty lulz, and it is nice that they gave it back the bonus proration so it can still be used in combos. Overall, things are looking a lot better than the first loketest, but this sounds like the "for shits and giggles" loketest so far.

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Me and Bond were just talking about this last night at Rebel Up and I just looked at the changes and making it easier for her to go for Fate Counters means that we really need to maintain that 50 SP we'll eventually build up in a game winning round which makes me curious in her combo's damage both meterless and with meter since there's going to be times where we bring down our opponent's Fate Counters fairly early or when we unfortunately use our meter for other things such as SB Aim or Guard Cancel. But hey, only time will tell.

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Surprise Loketest #3:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AC9gYVzyUaFDZFsf-LXIGGoyZnG1Wws4Gp96Tdgk58w/edit?pli=1#heading=h.m3nsi4gbhztk

So far all we know is that trap startup is faster. I wonder how how this will affect trap oki. Can't wait for more info.

Edit: More info translations: http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?16895-P4U2-News-Gameplay-Discussion/page28&p=1571601&viewfull=1#post1571601

- D traps aren't broken by jump attacks.

- Bullet count system preserved.

- Even when bullets are exhausted, can still shoot 6D bullets. (Probably a bug.)

- Still can't use Counter Shot when furious action doesn't catch an attack.

- Combos have difficult-looking extensions, but pressure-preserving movement seems possible. Could be interesting.

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