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[+R] Order-Sol General Discussion

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Gadam that wall of text sparked life in this place.

HOS has a stronger oki and rush down game which makes for much more involved game play imo.

HOS's meter use is much more complicated and fun. HOS has to manage two meters and there are many different combos and styles to make from each special move due to the 3 meters.

HOS hit's hard as fk on his normals.

Many people bring up the whole "Oh snap you have to have level 2 in order to do stuff bla bla". This conversation alone is a fallacy but the way that most people think about it is that damage is a result of charge so with out it I am a bad character. No, because HOS mostly builds meter safely in down time between the character getting knocked down and OKI. It's like a reward for your reward of knocking the opponent down. Sol usually just stands there or runs up to them to build meter. You don't -have- to charge either. Many decisions to make...

A single number or situation never explains the whole story.

Edited by Sesshyru

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Why don't you just build charge meter anyway. There's a lot of situations where you can safely gain a significant portion of charge, like late action charge FRC after Lv 1 SV. After 2D knockdown, you can gain half a charge stock into a meaty normal (6K, 2H, 2D, etc.). There's no reason not to build it when you safely can. The advantage between levels is quite clear imo. With Lvl 2, you can convert most every hit into a knockdown provided you go the correct route, and most Lv2 specials are safer on block allowing for prolonged rushdown. Hell, even doing Lv1 BHB FRC on block isn't the worst thing you can do, especially if you already have a little bit of charge meter beforehand to successfully convert to Lv2. Even if you want to play a "low charge" Order-Sol, you should at least be building charge little by little if you're charge-cancelling during pressure.

It's pretty much in your best interest to charge whenever you can because otherwise you're just holding the character back from being at his strongest. Not to say that he doesn't have ways of being damaging at level 1, but you just get a much steadier, safer stream of damage/knockdown/safe-on-block options in Lv2 and 3. I just wouldn't want to forfeit the possibility of such a heavy advantage.

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Gadam you got at me.

"mostly".

I didn't mean that the other stuff completely doesn't happen. Across the scheme of an entire match, I'd say most of us get our charges from AC's which take place in that situation.

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Ky vs. Order Sol

 

+R is rather odd compared to AC but if I had to guess, I'd say it's 4.5-5.5 in favor of Order Sol as he just wins out on damage quite often due to lvl2+ attacks and CH fafnir. This also happens to be one of my favorite matchups to play as both sides are very active throughout each round, and Order Sol is a great Ky combo dummy for whatever reason.

 

Neutral

 

Similar to the Sol matchup, only Ky should be much more aggressive. If he does not, then Order Sol can become very dangerous once he gets his charge gauge up, so you have to minimize his chances of charging up.

Ky will attack very aggressively with 5S, 2S, and ground SE. Think Buppa style attacking. Order Sol will try to fight back, but Ky's ground pokes give him the advantage and Ky's anti airs will negate all of Order Sol's options if your reflexes are sharp enough. Unlike other matchups though, being aggressive against Order Sol is generally okay.

 

Also, everything chains into a stun dipper combo against Order Sol. Far 5S CH will combo into it, 5S > 2S > 5HS will combo into it, etc. For whatever reason, Order sol is one of the easiest characters to combo, so exploit that for all its worth.

 

Order Sol will attack while trying to build to at least lvl 2., from which point he can inflict some massive damage off random hits. If he has lvl 2 and you get hit by CH Fafnir you pretty much lose, but other than that Ky should stay aggressive. Greed Sever will also beat Fafnir.

 

Offense

 

You can keep it standard and play as if you are playing against Sol, with a couple of caveats.

Using stun dipper to check a jump is inadvisable if he has FB fafnir available, and banned if he has that and lvl 2. If he hits you with CH fafnir + lvl 2+, the round essentially ends.

FB star oki into mixup is also very strong against Order sol, and also seems to lead into ridiculous amounts of damage to him due to Order Sol being the best Ky combo dummy ever. You can get away with doing a lot of damaging combos on Order Sol if he blocks wrong. The rule with Order Sol is if you think it could combo, it probably does.

 

Defense

 

Order Sol has a two way mixup with gun blaze, but in reality it isn't that scary. Even if you get hit, the damage isn't really high so just take a guess and don't worry about it.

Order Sol really swings the match in his favor based on how quickly he can blow Ky up in the corner. He can do massive amounts of damage near or at the corner, so you will have to be patient and try to block your way out.

In general, look for a moment to super jump away. Order Sol cannot really deal well against super jumps, and will most of the time be content with just using that opportunity to charge up instead of pursuing you.

In +R, he has a lot of new strange corner setups that disable air dash if you tech incorrectly, which is very counterintuitive as it looks like you could tech and airdash away in those situations. I don't understand them too well, but from what I've seen front teching will get you killed extremely quickly if you keep crashing into those setups. So if you have to tech, lean towards neutral teching towards the ground.

 

How do Order Sol players feel about this from Order Sol's perspective. I'm curious to get the opinion of OG players like Titanium Beast. I have a friend who still feels the neutral game and overall matchup is still in Ky's favor.

 

Thoughts?

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It's freaking hell.

 

This is what is going though my head in the match:

I try not to jump a lot because the elbow of justice (6p) will come out.

Gotta get in, but can't get hit while doing so because even the furthest of pokes lead to a KD.

Watch out on wake up for fireball shenanigans and Greed Server madness.

If air fireball, just run at him.

If ground fireball, sweep or block.

Look for the opening in blockstrings; fafnir the breakdance.

Might have to DP a lot; don't get baited.

If knock down, stay on em. Use 6p to bait out Vapor. Don't gunblaze. 2k is nice. 5p is best; stay close. DON'T GUNBLAZE!

Ky's weight is perfect for fafnir or gunblaze full combos, even from mid screen; but gotta be patient.

wait for it...

wait for it...

wait for it...

Instant block as much as you can. Don't burn meter. Save that for disengages or AC FRC.

Be patient. Don't jump.

If Ky is directly over head, j.K usually wins; that or gunblaze.

Do not burst anything. Ky's damage with out meter is pitiful. Ky's damage with meter costs a lot. Wait for gold; unless salty.

NEVER try to jump out of pressure. Ky's j.k too nasty.

 

Basically I am waiting for the Ky player to make a mistake while inching my way closer. Just like All them other match ups with long range folks. Ky dictates the fight until I can put some hands on em. Ky's weight or whatever is perfect for some pretty devastating combos from any point on the screen. Other than that, Ky just whittles you down. 5HS is really interesting in this match-up. Get's you out of a lot of trouble you wouldn't think it would, but it also puts you in it. Pretty un-fun matchup, but you feel like a boss if you win vs a good Ky. Makes you feel like a CVS2 pro.

 

A lot of people say j.HS in his face because Ky is so tall. Can get away with a lot of fuzzies. IDA combo extensions if you are cool enough to do that. 5.fs is pretty cool; but Greed Server goes over it for some reason.

 

If a good HOS wants to win vs a good Ky, he has to be near perfect with his punishes (running close to ky is a punish) and very patient.

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So let's get some video evidence of one of the best to do it up in hur:

 

 

I'll just talk about the first match because the loading speed of nico is doopoo right now.

 

k so match start.

This one is very important because I don't think anything HOS has can beat Ky at this range. You might beatable to punish anything not-low from Ky, but nearly every Ky I know opens up with that low slash.

Inoue chose to back dash. This push distance and made Ky move after wiffing his blabla. Noticing the wiff, Inoue runs in to punish. HOS must close the distance. His attempted punish was a 5s, good idea as Ky jumped and it would have stuffed a number of moves accept the one this Ky wisely chose. Inoue got hit and they are back to neutral.

HOS is at disadvantage at this distance. Inoue gets hit; a counter. Dunno why but he wasn't blocking low. Should always block low at that distance imo, but it's not like Ky can get much damage so why not?

Inoue wakes up and blocks for the next 4 seconds until Ky shows an opening. He baits out a j.k from Ky with a j.p -> dj.p. Smart move. Instead of ACing, he tries to keep the pressure up but wiffs. A lot of times HOS has to close in instead of charge in this matchup.

Stuff wiff's, Ky and Inoue back off. Fireball incoming; a sliding 2D to dodge and close distance. Inoue is already in full forward run by the time Ky recovers and IDA's to start up a block string. I am pretty sure Ky could have 6p'd him but whatever.

Block string is short because it took a lot of movement to get in that close. After a wiff, Inoue goes back to blocking and lets Ky make moves until an opening.

Opening comes and moves wiff. Eventually they are back to normal and back to letting Ky make moves.

Fireball coming again; double jump to dodge. A lot of recovery on fireball so it;s cool to look for one then go in.

Punish is short. Back to neutral. Inoue watches Ky for a fireball at this distance then closes in.

FINALLY GOT IN CLOSE ENOUGH FOR A COMBO! This combo needs to count; too hard to come by. This needs to end in a knock down.

IAD heavy combo extended with level 1 bhb AC FRC. Knock down + charge.

He's in the corner and too far away for a Vapor Thrust; takes his time charging. This is important because Inoue lets Ky dictate the match even at this point.

Ky wiffs a move; punish.

Ky blocks but he is still in the corner. It's very risky but now is the time to use all the advantage moves HOS has to try and control Ky. Any hit at any level while in the corner is devastating to Ky.

Ky gets out of the pressure and lands a nasty CH Greed Server. Burst that; no shame in that.

Ky runs back in and tries to poke with a 6HS. I don't know if Inoue saw this but he punishes it with a level 2 RI and just flat out plays Ky for the next 7 seconds. Staying close but not in Vapor Thrust range. Inoue maximizes all pokes with execution.

Once back at neutral, Inoue flips the script and goes offensive. He has level 2 so he tries to use it's quick startup to his advantage. This is important because when HOS has the advantage he can bully opponent with little fear of getting hit.

It wiffs, so now it's back to letting Ky dictate the match even from half screen. Inoue jumps and eats the j.K that I mentioned above. Annoying little combo into knock down into star.

Gunblaze out because the star was too far above / behind and set a bit late, if Ky isn't on point with stars then you can GB almost all of them. Even if you get hit once you will momentum your way out of further butt wupins.

Back to neutral, back to letting Ky dictate the match until an opening. One comes 9 seconds later. Close the distance, poke with 5k (3 frames). Stay in close.

Ky tries to run; stay in close but block. Back to neutral, back to Ky running the match. Just wait a little longer. Wait for the fireball.

One comes; close in.

 

Now honestly, everything that happens next is probably the "low life gitters". Both people are so close to death that "randomness" comes out. I hope you can see from this that Ky runs the show but HOS can still maximize opportunities (mostly fireballs).

I dunno if this answers your question because it is kinda open ended and a topic for debate, but I tried. Watch the rest of this video. It's really great. lol

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I never really found the HOS vs. Ky MU particularly hard or anything. It's really just a test of Ky's (and the players) fundamentals that either get him by or just get him scrapped. Here's some additional things to worry about fighting Ky however:

 

6P isn't that bad to deal with and made easier with your short jump. It's really good at blowing up auto-pilot IADs though so you have to be wary about that.

 

f.S and 2S are the main pokes you have to worry about fighting Ky. They're just faster and have more range than your pokes so ideally what you wanna do is be close range and sort of just bully him. 2S, 5K and 2K work wonders when you get in on him.

 

GB oki works just as good on him than it does everyone else. He's not one of the characters that has unconventional ways out of it (Robo, Bridget, Sol).

 

In addition to 6P you can also 2D under Ky's VT....it's not really that good of a DP lol.

 

If you're ever air to air against Ky, try and get above him and mash J.P / J.HS since he doesn't really have poke that has good vertical reach. If you're in front of him however just hold that since his J.K out ranges your J.P, even if your J.P is faster. Best case scenario is to try and force a clash and mash j.p.

 

In addition to IB and sweep you can also 6P and nullify Ky's fireballs completely and his air fireballs you can just run under for free. Even if he FRCs it there's not any real problem with doing so. If you think one of them is going to hit you, just FD brake and block it.

 

You can let the Ky player hang himself and punish him or you can just do what I do whenever I play a Ky and just bullhorn my way in and kill him. He doesn't have a lot of scary, safe tools to keep you off of him and once you get past his f.S / 2S range his pokes becomes less of an issue.

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I would say that the better you are at fighting without Charge, the easier the matchup is. A good Ky player will not let you Charge, which means most of your opportunities will be offensive in nature, either by getting knockdowns and Charging or by good use of AC FRC after specials. A lot of the matchup will be dictated by how good the Ky player is at neutral, because you really do need to get in. A smart Ky who knows the matchup will not hang himself for you. Eventually, you will probably have to take some kind of risk or make a really good read. Once you're in, do everything in your power to stay there and don't let him escape back to neutral. I would say it's close to even, with slight advantage in HOS favor; technically we have the better tools, but the Ky player can easily counteract that mild advantage with better play/matchup knowledge.

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Thank you kindly, guys for validating Blade's opinion, now he's going to throw it up my face haha *shoots self*.

I have a different take on this matchup. Pardon me if I lack sufficient knowledge of the game, as I've been playing since February.

It seems to me that Ky controls EVERYTHING except when he gets knocked down.

In the beginning of matches, the only thing Order Sol can do against a competent Ky is usually to back dash, jump back or run up crouch barrier block.

Ky's 2D virtually beats any standing attack HOS can do.

- 2K, 2S, 2D, 5HS and Rock It all get stuffed.

- f.S is useless because it has a crappy hurtbox that extends pretty damn far away.

- BRP lvl1 is unsafe as hell, in fact it's a free grab for him on hit AND on block.

Now, obviously, to start the offensive, one would like to jump-in over his 2D. So what happens when Ky expects it?

- Gdlk 6P AA or air grab on a committed jump. BOOM, in your face.

- 2HS > gg on an even slightly late double jump.

So here we are, as said, dashing back / jumping back, meaning that HOS ALREADY starts with a disadvantage in the beginning.

Whenever I manage to get inside at match start is because I somehow made my brain work to be 2 steps ahead of my opponent.

Now, how do I sum up the neutral game?

Level 1 Gauge: Super Fucking Mario. It is extremely to get in on Ky player unless he actually fucks up. He can literally do nothing while throwing Stunedges and wait for you to move your ass.

What's the other option? Charging. Against non-committal Ky, it works wonders. But more on that later.

Level 2 Gauge: Matchup gets a bit more even. It's still Super Mario but with Ky actually being less on steroid. Seems to me that it is relatively the same, except that RI Lvl2 is actually a great whiff punisher, but it still gets stuffed pretty easily against a cautious Ky (which, to me, should be the way anybody plays him anyway...)

So yeah, RI lvl2 being very useful for whiff punishing aside. What changes the most IMO is HOS' ability to pressure Ky and have more lockdown control once he gets even just a poke blocked. His mixup game's also heavily buffed, naturally.

What does it say here? HOS still has the same control over the neutral game: almost none.

Now, Level 3 Gauge: OUTSTANDING DIFFERENCE. Now, this level is actually pretty frickin' hard to get up to, as Titanium Beast has said: no competent Ky will let you charge it for free. Neutral game gets somewhat even. With midrange becoming much more of a blur in terms of who it favors. Still, one mispaced or mistimed move means going back to Super Mario Bros.

Order Sol's damage output varies greatly. Yes, he does deal a shit ton of damage compared to Ky. But it seems a lot more situational.

Bear with me, I'll explain: HOS's most damaging combos either come from gunblaze (requires knockdown) lvl3 specials (charge), Fafnir (meterrr!) or CHs (situational).

Getting CHs with Order Sol is A LOT more situational than with Ky IMO. First off, Ky maintains control of most ranges, meaning that HOS is the one that has to risk his ass to get inside. So ultimately, the probability of getting CH'd is A LOT more high for him than the Aryan blondie.

Now, gunblaze requires knock downs or an overcommitted jump-in from Ky (doesn't happen often).

And so, Fafnir gets stuffed by anything that isn't called a low attack, as awesome as the move is. It has a very specific (and important) use but is not useful outside of it.

Now, onto the offensive game. Obviously, Order Sol has great mixups and is definitely miles better than Ky in that department. He has so many ways to confuse an opponent that it can be easily natural for him to get perfects off of one single knockdown, his comeback potential is crazy. But as soon as Ky manages to block an oki setup, he's basically free to go. Plus, the Aryan blondie's constantly chipping away at our life with stun edge. He might not have a lot of mixups, but his offensive game is definitely centered around forcing his opponents to seek offensive momentum themselves and hang themselves for it.

In the corner, Order Sol's as dangerous as ever with meaty GB shenanigans. But still, his ability to keep Ky locked in the corner is average at best once Ky blocks just a single mixup. That usually awesome jump arc actually plays a role in how easy it is for Ky to get out of the corner once he's up. Super jump airdashing or double jump's pretty hard to catch.

Meanwhile, Ky has outstanding corner lockdown capabilities. Dude has that enormous range that simply makes it impossible for Order Sol to just sit there and block til he's out of range.

Essentially, Ky controls most of the match, except when he gets knocked down. He has a lot more opportunities to damage and hit Order Sol. And he has a lot more tools with polyvalency as opposed to HOS' excellent but situational ones.

Since I regularly play Blade, who's a much better player than I am, my biased view of this matchup is 6-4.

But objectively speaking (or at least as objectively as possible) I give this matchup 5.5-4.5 in Ky's favor.

EDIT: I forgot to speak about the air game. But I'll sum it up pretty simply... Ky's j.K's a serious bitch for air-to-airs, j.S has enormous hitstun allowing for high hitting crossups, and j.HS is freakishly hard to beat at Mid-range with HOS' very timing & spacing specific 5HS.

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I'm glad to see this sub-forum/thread active for once.

 

EDIT: I feel that Titanium Beast is the most on point when it comes to playing effectively against Ky. Charging is just free damage for me. But learning to build charge stock while staying in on me is significantly harder to deal with, because it makes it hard to get Order Sol off of you because his pressure/tools are just so strong with lvl 2+ and 25%+ meter.

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Thank you kindly, guys for validating Blade's opinion, now he's going to throw it up my face haha *shoots self*.

I have a different take on this matchup. Pardon me if I lack sufficient knowledge of the game, as I've been playing since February.

It seems to me that Ky controls EVERYTHING except when he gets knocked down.

In the beginning of matches, the only thing Order Sol can do against a competent Ky is usually to back dash, jump back or run up crouch barrier block.

Ky's 2D virtually beats any standing attack HOS can do.

- 2K, 2S, 2D, 5HS and Rock It all get stuffed.

- f.S is useless because it has a crappy hurtbox that extends pretty damn far away.

- BRP lvl1 is unsafe as hell, in fact it's a free grab for him on hit AND on block.

Now, obviously, to start the offensive, one would like to jump-in over his 2D. So what happens when Ky expects it?

- Gdlk 6P AA or air grab on a committed jump. BOOM, in your face.

- 2HS > gg on an even slightly late double jump.

So here we are, as said, dashing back / jumping back, meaning that HOS ALREADY starts with a disadvantage in the beginning.

Whenever I manage to get inside at match start is because I somehow made my brain work to be 2 steps ahead of my opponent.

Now, how do I sum up the neutral game?

Level 1 Gauge: Super Fucking Mario. It is extremely to get in on Ky player unless he actually fucks up. He can literally do nothing while throwing Stunedges and wait for you to move your ass.

What's the other option? Charging. Against non-committal Ky, it works wonders. But more on that later.

Level 2 Gauge: Matchup gets a bit more even. It's still Super Mario but with Ky actually being less on steroid. Seems to me that it is relatively the same, except that RI Lvl2 is actually a great whiff punisher, but it still gets stuffed pretty easily against a cautious Ky (which, to me, should be the way anybody plays him anyway...)

So yeah, RI lvl2 being very useful for whiff punishing aside. What changes the most IMO is HOS' ability to pressure Ky and have more lockdown control once he gets even just a poke blocked. His mixup game's also heavily buffed, naturally.

What does it say here? HOS still has the same control over the neutral game: almost none.

Now, Level 3 Gauge: OUTSTANDING DIFFERENCE. Now, this level is actually pretty frickin' hard to get up to, as Titanium Beast has said: no competent Ky will let you charge it for free. Neutral game gets somewhat even. With midrange becoming much more of a blur in terms of who it favors. Still, one mispaced or mistimed move means going back to Super Mario Bros.

Order Sol's damage output varies greatly. Yes, he does deal a shit ton of damage compared to Ky. But it seems a lot more situational.

Bear with me, I'll explain: HOS's most damaging combos either come from gunblaze (requires knockdown) lvl3 specials (charge), Fafnir (meterrr!) or CHs (situational).

Getting CHs with Order Sol is A LOT more situational than with Ky IMO. First off, Ky maintains control of most ranges, meaning that HOS is the one that has to risk his ass to get inside. So ultimately, the probability of getting CH'd is A LOT more high for him than the Aryan blondie.

Now, gunblaze requires knock downs or an overcommitted jump-in from Ky (doesn't happen often).

And so, Fafnir gets stuffed by anything that isn't called a low attack, as awesome as the move is. It has a very specific (and important) use but is not useful outside of it.

Now, onto the offensive game. Obviously, Order Sol has great mixups and is definitely miles better than Ky in that department. He has so many ways to confuse an opponent that it can be easily natural for him to get perfects off of one single knockdown, his comeback potential is crazy. But as soon as Ky manages to block an oki setup, he's basically free to go. Plus, the Aryan blondie's constantly chipping away at our life with stun edge. He might not have a lot of mixups, but his offensive game is definitely centered around forcing his opponents to seek offensive momentum themselves and hang themselves for it.

In the corner, Order Sol's as dangerous as ever with meaty GB shenanigans. But still, his ability to keep Ky locked in the corner is average at best once Ky blocks just a single mixup. That usually awesome jump arc actually plays a role in how easy it is for Ky to get out of the corner once he's up. Super jump airdashing or double jump's pretty hard to catch.

Meanwhile, Ky has outstanding corner lockdown capabilities. Dude has that enormous range that simply makes it impossible for Order Sol to just sit there and block til he's out of range.

Essentially, Ky controls most of the match, except when he gets knocked down. He has a lot more opportunities to damage and hit Order Sol. And he has a lot more tools with polyvalency as opposed to HOS' excellent but situational ones.

Since I regularly play Blade, who's a much better player than I am, my biased view of this matchup is 6-4.

But objectively speaking (or at least as objectively as possible) I give this matchup 5.5-4.5 in Ky's favor.

EDIT: I forgot to speak about the air game. But I'll sum it up pretty simply... Ky's j.K's a serious bitch for air-to-airs, j.S has enormous hitstun allowing for high hitting crossups, and j.HS is freakishly hard to beat at Mid-range with HOS' very timing & spacing specific 5HS.

This post reminds more of the AC+ rather than +R.

 

Also I greatly disagree that the better you are at lower levels the easier the MU is solely because with the way OS's charge works in +R there's absolutely no reason to ever be below low-level 2 once you get to level 2, which is really, REALLY easy now.

I'll break it down more when I get home though.

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Brandino: Specifically, matchup is much easier at neutral if you are better at playing with low levels of Charge. It is hard to Charge at midscreen against a Ky who knows the matchup, because he's not going to give you room to breathe. Yes, getting to level 2 is easy if you're not having to deal with constant barrages of Stun Edges and well-spaced pokes that beat all of your pokes.

 

Overall though, I'd say it really comes down to matchup knowledge. By no means is the matchup heavily in the favor of either character.

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As much as I agree with T.B's brief remarks, I'm curious as to what Brandino will extensively write on.

 

When I played Toronto's Order Sol, I had a very hard time keeping him off of me from start to finish. I was able to get around all of that, but I really had to know how to block all of Order Sol's mixup tools in order to do so. Once he got in, he stayed in. He made excellent use of AC's and their FRC points.

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For me, it has always been dependent on individual playstyles and how they interact. Personally, I am always trying to feed off the response to my pressure options, so I tend to insert more critical points into my pressure where people will be tempted to do something. I had to do this because the local Ky I played was very good at just blocking anything straightforward that came at him. That's part of why I say the matchup really depends on who is playing it. I could do a more extensive writeup on various options and respond to what's been said, but I'm mostly just too lazy. :(

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Brandino: Specifically, matchup is much easier at neutral if you are better at playing with low levels of Charge. It is hard to Charge at midscreen against a Ky who knows the matchup, because he's not going to give you room to breathe. Yes, getting to level 2 is easy if you're not having to deal with constant barrages of Stun Edges and well-spaced pokes that beat all of your pokes.

 

Overall though, I'd say it really comes down to matchup knowledge. By no means is the matchup heavily in the favor of either character.

 

I never really found the Ky MU to be particularly hard at neutral regardless of levels aside from dealing with f.s and 2S. Close range you can bully him and far range I don't really consider SEs a threat when HOS has the run speed and mobility to maneuver around them.

 

It's also easy to get a lvl.2 when you hit Ky and you have 25 meter. At that point you're getting more than half of a lvl.2 gauge which goes a long way in +R. Yeah you're right that a smart won't let you charge fullscreen, but even then I never personally found SEs to be a threat since there's so many ways around them. 2D, IB, 6P, BHB AC FRC and if you really wanna be cute there's charge burst.

 

Not to say that HOS has this overwhelmingly advantage over Ky, but in my EXP fighting Ky I never really found him to be a huge threat. I've always seen Ky to be as much of a threat as the player's fundamentals. If the Ky player has a real good sense of range and awareness to stone wall HOS with f.S / 2S / altering SE angles / AAs then yeah it can be a pain for HOS. It's just that HOS has more than enough tools to deal with all of Ky's strengths to the point where none of Ky's annoying aspects really stand out to me

 

- Start of the round yes you can't really attack him unless you take a risk of eating a 6K and IADing immediately. Otherwise yeah you want to back of and try to slowly gain ground some other way.

 

- 2D is ok, but will not stuff OS's 2S or 2D or 2K. Then again those are really the only buttons you should be pressing against him in neutral since f.S is too slow and every other normal is mostly used for pressure and oki. A couple of good CH 2S > 6HS will change Ky's mind about tossing out 2D in neutal REAL quick.

 

- Random RIs will get stuffed by 6P, but that's hardly exclusive to Ky. A large chunk of the cast can beat RI with 6P since the hurtbox on it is terrible and extends past his fist. Hell if you're someone like Johnny then his 5K will beat it clean.

 

- Lvl.1 Bandit isn't unsafe as a lot of people think. It's only -1 and if they don't IB it then you can jump out of whatever throw attempt and punish on the way down with J.HS. That also doubles as a burst grab attempt if they decide to gold burst. Ky can try to DP as you jump, but FD jump and punish works fine. The only character I can name off the top of my head that has a sure fire way to punish a jump out attempt is Sol and Order Sol with their 5Ks. The only way you get a sure fire throw punish is if they IB it.

 

- My ideal way to approach Ky is on the ground and only IAD in when he shot out a badly spaced SE or solely to close ground. His jump height and IAD height requirement is PERFECT for Ky just waiting to 6P / 2HS him.

 

- f.S / 2S is probably the scariest buttons Ky has at lvl.1 cause it's really hard to whiff punish them and putting yourself at a risk. The best you can do is really run in and force him to block a 2K or 2S and start your pressure there. Those normals become much more threatening when he's pressure you IMO since it becomes a risk of escaping and even if you do he can easily chase you. At level.2 however Lvl.2 RI will EASILY whiff punish those normals and give you a knockdown and action charge (guess what you're STILL at lvl.2 at that point). Yeah he do stun dipper on CH or force you to eat a SE on hit, but again the latter isn't that scary since he's too far away to capitalize on anything major. Hell unless you're in the corner you get to back off and re-asses your approach.

 

- Stun Edges. Well I'm just going to repeat what I said earlier. They're basic fireballs that HOS has multiple ways around. The one thing they're good for is like what TB said, they prevent you from charging full screen much. With that said however you can still get a bit of charge before you're forced to block.

 

- Air to Air is probably the one area I'd consider Ky a real threat. His J.K is really annoying to deal with since it out ranges your J.P and is faster than your other pokes. J.S is also good too for similar reasons and it hits a bit above him. If you're directly above him then he can't really do much and J.HS will rock him.

 

Maybe I need to fight a Ky like Steve H, but I just never really see the big deal fighting Ky. That's just my take on fighting him. If you want a recent of me fighting a Ky here's a match I played of Ukyo from Chicago this past weekend.

 

http://www.twitch.tv/mrshinsyn/b/564011087 - 15:25

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Brandino: no disrespect meant to your local comp, but you have likely never played a Ky player who really knew the matchup. I watched the match between you and Ukyo, and while he was not a bad player by any means, he really didn't know how to play the neutral properly in that matchup. This is why I said it really depends on who you're playing. He took a lot of risks in the neutral game that ended up getting him hit and put back on defense. It's easy to make Ky look like no big deal when you get in on a Ky player for free.

 

As far as ways around Stun Edge, none of those ways really allow you to gain ground on Ky. Yes, they prevent you from being locked down by a SE, but they don't put you in a position where you have a tangible advantage; you're just better equipped to deal with the next incoming threat. That's why I said neutral goes more easily for you if you are willing to fight without Charging, because Ky has too many ways of covering you. Yes, it's easy to get level 2 if you actually hit him, that's assuming you won out in neutral and got to where you wanted to be.

 

I never said that HOS doesn't have the tools to deal with Ky's game; if that were the case, the matchup would definitely not be as close to even as it is now (Ky would have an overwhelming advantage, in fact). As I've said multiple times, it all comes down to the players behind the sticks, because both players have to make some type of commitment in most actions and everything has a counter. I give mild advantage to HOS because he just comes out on the winning end more often when it comes to damage dealt, so that makes it easier to seal the deal once you get into the right position. Ky has to work a little harder, but Ky also has an easier time locking down HOS once he gets his offense started, so it balances out somewhat.

 

Also, iBeK3n mentioned earlier that lvl1 BRP gave a free throw to the opponent even on hit. This is incorrect, as lvl1 BRP is +3 on standing hit and IIRC +4 on crouching hit (it's been a while, but I believe crouching hit does add 1 frame of hitstun). This makes 5K a perfectly viable follow up to a connected lvl1 BRP, and even if you don't want to chance it due to how close the frame advantage is, 6K and instant j.HS remain options to discourage throwing in that situation.

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Shrug I guess that's what happens against every other Ky I fought that's not Steve H cause that's sort of how the MU look on my end whenever I play it out and Ukyo isn't the only Ky I fought. I never really found a reason to fear him or give him any breathing room. Also, I wouldn't say he doesn't know the MU cause I know for a fact he fought Juicy G when he was active...but I digress.

 

Maybe nullify SEs should've been a better word for the examples given, but you can easily run past air SEs and IAD over ground SEs to punish them. I would say FB Star is more annoying since even if you get past them and punish him they still stay out.

 

Because Lv.1 BRP is a lvl.3 move it actually doesn't add any hitstun on crouching. It's only Lvl.2, 4 and 5 moves that adds +1f of hitstun.

 

http://www.dustloop.com/wiki/index.php?title=Offense_%28GGACR%29#Attack_Level

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EDIT: Just confirmed that it is a typo. All moves cause one additional frame of hitstun on crouching, except for Level 1 moves. "This chart is still being researched for accuracy".

 

And I'm sure you've played other Kys. That's just what I saw from that match, which is admittedly one match in a vacuum. Some examples would be doing regular j.D as you were running in on him, doing Charge SE when you teched and IADed in on him, just generally not really aware of his spacing when doing certain actions, etc. He obviously knows what to do once he's knocked you down and cornered you, but the rest of the match didn't make him look so good at getting in that position. Also FDing your GB spam, that's a classic no-no when playing versus HOS. I think we tend to take for granted that not many people actually know how to fight this character.

 

Both of those counters require you to at least have somewhat of a read on your opponent. Again, depends on who is behind the sticks etc etc etc.

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Shrug I guess that's what happens against every other Ky I fought that's not Steve H cause that's sort of how the MU look on my end whenever I play it out and Ukyo isn't the only Ky I fought. 

 

I guess this is why I am 100% useless in this conversation. Steve H. is the only Ky around here. After years of sparing I still think Ky runs the show and HOS can only capitalize on openings. When I win, it's because I don't let up. When I lose, it's because I didn't block when I thought it was an opening or I jumped.

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EDIT: Just confirmed that it is a typo. All moves cause one additional frame of hitstun on crouching, except for Level 1 moves. "This chart is still being researched for accuracy".

 

And I'm sure you've played other Kys. That's just what I saw from that match, which is admittedly one match in a vacuum. Some examples would be doing regular j.D as you were running in on him, doing Charge SE when you teched and IADed in on him, just generally not really aware of his spacing when doing certain actions, etc. He obviously knows what to do once he's knocked you down and cornered you, but the rest of the match didn't make him look so good at getting in that position. Also FDing your GB spam, that's a classic no-no when playing versus HOS. I think we tend to take for granted that not many people actually know how to fight this character.

 

Both of those counters require you to at least have somewhat of a read on your opponent. Again, depends on who is behind the sticks etc etc etc.

Holy Hipster Sol.

 

In all seriousness I can count the amount of people I've played in Canada that use Order Sol optimally lol.

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Steve H is on another level. I don't think he has the most optimum Ky, but his sheer skill makes up for it big time.

 

Because he plays Ky like CVS2 character. Although much more GG like as of late.

What I mean is that he plays Ky really safe. He only uses stun edge if full screen and I am charging / he has a safe way to get in. FRC's any close range stun edge so I can't punish. Does good star mixups on oki. Reacts to any jump-ins is a properly timed 6p. Almost never DP's outside of combos; relies on gdlk blocking/punishing to escape pressure. Pressures me at a distance that I can't punish back with out moving in closer. The pressure has just enough space so that I can hang my self but not escape/jump out. Just like CVS2 Sagat, Blanka, and Geese. I think his team is Sagat, Blaka, Terry/Rock/Iori.

 

Ky allows for all of this in his tool set which is why I give the favor to Ky in this matchup. Honestly, once I get in on Ky's and Axles I remove my brain and work off of instinct. If I try to take my time and think about it or react to stuff like in a Potemkin matchup I lose my window and the game is reset back to whatever Ky wants to do.

 

I can't get to level 2 outside of a knock down -> AC in this matchup so I get most of my damage from the fact that Ky's weight / hitbox seems to be perfect for max damage on every combo HOS has.

 

Oh well. Won't mater in 2 months... Sadness and depression.

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XRD!!!

 

And HOS ain't in it.

 

Did we answer your initial question though?

 

Side note: The only HOS who I have seen go blow for blow vs Steve H. was WUT. He and his crew took a van trip to Baltimore and we partied all week at Kenji's house. Was a lot of fun; accept for when people kept looking at me like "THIS IS A REAL ORDER SOL!"

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Oh t's true  was the one who asked the question eh?

 

I dd it for iBeK3n who has a hard time playing me.

 

I just find this matchup is an interesting discussion going from AC to ACR.

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